The Stock Superhero "One Rule", and why it's bullshit.

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Luminous_Umbra

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While do I agree that the "No killing" rule should be more a loose guideline than an actual rule, you have to admit it would get pretty boring if the hero killed every single villain. Especially considering some do actually attempt to redeem themselves, a few of them actually succeeding. Bane is a perfect example of this.

Although, there are some that really need to die. Killer Croc for instance. He has practically no redeeming qualities, no desire to redeem himself, and has absolute disregard for the lives of others.
 

Geo Da Sponge

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TheCommanders said:
Geo Da Sponge said:
Well, it's not really the hero's job to do the killing, is it? That would make them judge, jury and executioner. Isn't it kind of the responsibility of the authorities that, for example, Batman hands the Joker over to to decide whether he should get the death penalty?

I will never understand why people find that hard to understand, at least in the case of Batman. Killing would push him over the line from helpful vigilante to dangerous loose cannon because he would be killing without any authority. A far better question would be "Why doesn't Gotham have the death penalty?", but nope. It's all about the heroes, so they are personally responsible for dealing out any punishment required.
The main reason I don't see this as a valid argument is that they've made themselves responsible, no-one asked them to do what they do (explicitly at the very least). And clearly they are failing. And yet they refuse to change any part of their methodology. That strikes me as irresponsible.

Also, I mentioned that if they wanted to avoid killing, fine, but help the portion of the system that's supposed to handle these people, rather than just dumping them with the same system that keeps failing at it's job (keeping dangerous people locked up) over and over again and expecting a different result. Don't make me get Vaas from Far Cry 3 to come here and lecture you. Either find a way to make your method work, or find a different method. They refuse to do either.
...Not to put too fine a point on it, but the super villains wouldn't really be very "super" if the secret to keeping them permanently locked up is to just try a bit harder. I think the reason the Joker can always escape Arkham is because he's shit-hot at coming up with plans and escaping from places, not because the Arkham guards aren't really making the effort to look after their insane criminal masterminds properly, or that the place is underfunded.

Like you said yourself, no one asked them to take complete responsiblity for these super criminals, so it seems kind of petty to blame them for bad decisions that they don't make. I mean, okay, maybe things would work out better if (for example) Batman killed the Joker. But Batman doesn't want to kill the Joker. I don't think the fact that he's done so much selfless work protecting the city means you can tell him to do something that he doesn't want to. If you're a Gotham citizen who wants to kill the Joker, that's up to you.
 

TheCommanders

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Luminous_Umbra said:
While do I agree that the "No killing" rule should be more a loose guideline than an actual rule, you have to admit it would get pretty boring if the hero killed every single villain. Especially considering some do actually attempt to redeem themselves, a few of them actually succeeding. Bane is a perfect example of this.

Although, there are some that really need to die. Killer Croc for instance. He has practically no redeeming qualities, no desire to redeem himself, and has absolute disregard for the lives of others.
That's pretty much what I'm saying. Holding to the concept of "no killing" arbitrarily is bad, but killing every villain is also bad. The point is there's more ambiguity in the world then this sort of code allows for.
 

TheCommanders

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Geo Da Sponge said:
...Not to put too fine a point on it, but the super villains wouldn't really be very "super" if the secret to keeping them permanently locked up is to just try a bit harder. I think the reason the Joker can always escape Arkham is because he's shit-hot at coming up with plans and escaping from places, not because the Arkham guards aren't really making the effort to look after their insane criminal masterminds properly, or that the place is underfunded.
So the solution to them being able to escape within your current security is just to go... oh well, and leave it at that? Just because any improvements you implement could be overcome, doesn't mean you shouldn't make the effort. Hell if you just keep some of the more minor villains from escaping (calendar man?) that would be an improvement. But seriously... something is very wrong with the prisons in these universes. Funding might not be the problem, but something clearly is.
 

shintakie10

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They play a lot with Supermans ideals about killin. Not killing people is the one thing that really keeps Superman in check. In pretty much every iteration where he decides that killing someone on purpose and with full intent to have killed them in the first place ends with a slippery slope for him, because killing for him is easy. He can look at someone and kill them. He can breathe on someone and kill them. He can flick his pinky at someone and kill them.

If killing came so easy to someone so powerful, the only thing that would keep him from enacting justice (his own justice too, regardless of what other people think) is the moral compass that guides him. There's a line he purposely can't cross because if he does then there's quite literally nothin to stop him from continuin on down that path.

As for your other parts about kinetic force and impacts and peoples chests cavin in? Its a comic book yo. People do things, normal people too, that are physically impossible. Green Arrows and Batman have been blasted through walls, slammed into cars, and thrown hundreds of feet before slamming into the ground and causin a human sized crater. They still end up gettin up (if a bit slowly). Just pretend the average human can take far more punishment than they could in real life and done.
 

Geo Da Sponge

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TheCommanders said:
But seriously... something is very wrong with the prisons in these universes. Funding might not be the problem, but something clearly is.
Well yeah, but by that logic there's no point killing the villains because they get better anyway. This is a comic book world, remember? :p

I just don't see why the reaction to the no killing rule is "stupid superheroes" rather than "stupid legal system."
 

Angelous Wang

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TheCommanders said:
!!Disclaimer: Man of Steel spoilers after this point (well, really just 1)!!

You know what I'm talking about. That one rule that most heroes who aren't in the dubious and ever-shifting region occupied by the anti-heroes and anti-villains abide by. No killing. First of all, I'm sure this has been talked about before, but watching the Man of Steel made me want to say a few things.

Note that this is not a new issue - it's bothered me before - but fan reaction to a certain event in Man of Steel has prompted the need for a discussion, namely the one near the end, and I'm not talking about superman wasting millions in taxpayer money to make a petty point about his privacy.

Fist of all, "Superman doesn't kill" is a lie. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of physics knows that transferring enough energy from a fist sized object to someone's chest to lift them off the ground and throw them 20 feet through the air (a common fate for henchmen in superman's world) would leave a crater where their chest used to be (or depending on the density of the object a fist-sized hole in their chest). These people are not knocked out, they are dead. Also, does anyone seriously think that in those fights where superman and le supervillian de jour are duking it out in the middle of crowded cities, smashing into cars and through buildings, that no one dies? While technically I'm pretty sure that qualifies as manslaughter (or maybe wrongful death?), not murder, it still falls under the domain of "killing". But that's fine, some will say, it's the fault of the villain that instigated the conflict! Right, because superman totally can't fly, can't breath in space, and is incapable of simply taking the battle up there where there's no bystanders. Oh wait, he can. But doesn't. Because these are comics and drawing people getting thrown through buildings is more fun than watching them flail around in space. Ah well.

Anyway, even if it were true, it would not be a particularly moral rule anyway. It sounds great as a concept, but it doesn't even remotely work in the worlds these people live in. Take Batman for instance. We all know (including Batman) that the Joker (and many other villains) treat Arkham Asylum like a hotel they can check in and out of at their leisure. And every time they break out, people die. What is the death penalty for if not this exact instance, killing people who will continue to kill others if they are allowed to live? And if the justice system is incapable of doing so, I would argue that it falls to the heroes - who as vigilantes are already outside the legal system - to do the right thing for the people they claim to protect. Otherwise all they are doing is serving as extremely expensive speed bumps on the highway of crime.

"But wait!" you might say, "what then would make them better than the criminals they oppose?" Then I would slap you for being an idiot. Unless you live your life by some extremely vague numerical system of reckoning, killing people for fun and profit does not in any way equal killing people because they would keep killing other people for fun and profit if you didn't. Honestly, if they believe as strongly as most of them supposedly do about not killing, I would invest a little time building a much better prison. Bruce Wayne could donate a billion or two for a special prison for supervillians (you know, one that doesn't let them leave whenever they feel like it), Superman could fly them to a prison he built on mars, get creative! But simply tossing them in a cell or letting them walk away - I would argue - does make them almost as bad as the villains they fight. Because it means they value the ideal of justice more than the people that ideal is meant to serve and protect. And for anyone concerned that killing a villain for all the right reasons is the first step on a slippery slope, I would argue that holding ideals higher than lives is much more dangerous.
Marvel would agree with you, except for Spiderman. Marvel Hero's have no problem killing the bad guys (Spiderman does do it, but very, very rarely, and it's always a big moral dilemma story arch type deal).

DC wouldn't, DC's policy is that Superheroes are symbols for the common people of aspire to. Symbols should be prefect and incorruptible.

They are not just a super-police force, stopping criminals and supervillian's is only part of their job. They also need to be role models to guide society toward greatness.

Nobody is more of an example of this than Superman, he is what they call a Paragon Hero. He is a prefect and incorruptible example of how the human race should all think and behave, the ideal we should all aspire too. And killing is not something an perfect human should do.

Of course you can argue that perfect people don't work in an imperfect world, like Batman's refusal to kill allowing the Joker to continuously do more and more evil things every time he escapes again. But then you have to think what is the point in stopping the Joker if nobody's trying to make perfect world? If the world is always going to to be imperfect and subsequently always spawn more supervillian's no matter how many you kill then why bother?
 

Seracen

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I think part of the problem is the need to tell continuing stories, and others have already illustrated several points I would have made.

I can understand the contrived reasons for not killing a villain in the comics, but that logic wouldn't work in real life (obviously). Per "villain of the week" syndrome, I don't think I even mind it that much.

What I mind, however, is when said villains commit far reaching and emotionally scarring catastrophes BECAUSE they've been allowed to go free so many times (Barbara Gordon and Sarah Essen dying per Joker, for instance).

And it's harder to justify when the enemies aren't immortal (which is how so many villains get away with coming back).

With a fanbase which is getting more discerning, we demand more discerning stories. That's not something that the old format of comic writing can always address properly.

The alternative, however, is to create a series of immortals going to war, or killing off and recreating characters every month. I really don't know how I feel about that.

Oddly enough, this is more of a problem for DC than Marvel, IMO. I honestly think it's just Joker and Lex that "ruin it." Conversely, Magneto, Sinister, and Apocalypse never really PISSED ME OFF by staying alive, yet still managed to make for interesting enemies.
 

oreso

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I like the 'no killing' rule.

It's about hope for the future. It's not realistic, it's idealistic.

It's saying "We should always use the minimum force we can" and it says "Everyone can be saved". And these are good ideals to have.

It should be occasionally questioned in whatever fiction it appears in (not just always assumed), but I'm always happy when a hero makes the decision not to kill.

I enjoy grittier killy stuff too, don't get me wrong, but there's always plenty of that. Honest, hopeful fiction is something rarer.
 

COMaestro

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Let's face it. As far as comic books go, the main reason the villians don't get killed and always manage to escape is so there is a story to tell and something for the hero to do. It's meta to say this, but it is the truth. If Arkham Asylum was upgraded to an impenetrable security system that no one could break out of, then once all the major villians get locked up, Batman is left stopping random muggers and burglars? That doesn't really make for an awesome comic book story.

As far as Superman not killing, he's walking a bit of a fine line with the people of Earth. If he suddenly started killing anyone that he considered irredeemable, basically making himself judge, jury, and executioner, he would be declaring himself above the laws of man. This would make people fear him more than they likely already do. Everyone knows Superman could very easily rampage across the world killing everyone in his path, and that is terrifying. It is his actions and the restraint he shows that alleviates this fear. Being able to see him as an ideal, as something to strive for, is why he has to maintain this image to the people of Earth. If he starts killing people randomly, he will no longer be viewed as an ideal to strive for and will instead be distrusted and possibly reviled. Re-reading this, I don't think I'm managing to convey exactly what I want, but I didn't get much sleep last night and I'm fumbling a bit.

As far as the Batman/Joker stance, sure, killing the Joker would save countless innocent lives. However, in a way, if Batman killed the Joker then the Joker will have won. The Joker is ALWAYS looking to push Batman over the edge, and his one rule about not killing is really the only thing that prevents him from being viewed as a complete psychopath. Sure, as a vigilante who constantly pummels bad guys, he should be arrested just for all the assaults he has commited, but the police look the other way since it is making their jobs easier. If Batman started killing people though, then the police would be forced to act. This actual reaction to Batman killing has been shown multiple times in media (Mask of the Phantasm and Dark Knight Rises coming to mind, and I'm sure there are plenty of examples in comic form as well).
 

Asita

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I think they've actually done a decent job of justifying it with Batman in recent years. In Nolan's trilogy of films he saw firsthand what he could become with the League of Shadows: little better (at his first introduction to the League's embraced of execution) than a hitman with a - supposedly - noble cause. The idea of becoming this naturally became even more abhorrent when it was revealed that the League was perfectly content to end all the innocent lives in a city if it meant ridding the world of the corruption that same city held. A variant also pops up in Under the Red Hood where his refusal to kill the Joker is actually a major plot point, to the point that he actually gets into an argument about it during the film's climax. What's ultimately revealed in that scene is that it's not a sense of morality that prevents him from killing the Joker (which he really wants to do), but fear of what he'd become if he allowed himself to do that. (Again, climactic scene, so there are naturally some spoilers associated with it)


You see something similar in the Justice League animated series with the central heroes due to their encounter with the "Justice Lords" from an alternate universe, but Superman in particular stands out due to his fear of becoming the Justice Lord Superman becoming a prominent character trait.

Maybe it's just me, but I find it works out when viewed as a humanizing trait rather than a moral or expedient one.
 

Scarim Coral

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This thread need this video clip (the animated film Superman Vs The Elite (pretty much based on this topic)-

By all means, I fully understand the pro/ con about this discussion (seriously, if any Superheroes comics were using real world logic, most supervillains would of been executed if not placed in long terms to life sentences imprisonment) but one of the things lacking about this thread is if all superheroes were allow to killed a supervillain then what is the values of truth and justice?

Shouldn't the villain should face trail for his/ her crime than just being killed in a instant? Sure you can argue that a swift death to say under the name of justice will saved alot of time and money but how much knowledge of the justice system would that hero know and why it is only him/ her who get the final say? Even then what methods is allow/ not allow to be used to excuted the villain? I'm pretty sure a brutal death to a deranged villain will not be easy to read/ watched expecially young children?

Sure I can assume some or most of us would trust a superhero but there will be those who don't and putting them above the law will cause some distrust among those people or if a superhero will abuse this power (excuted a villain who was willing to face his/ her trail and send to prison).

Even then why should we put this implications only to them? By all means I know this doesn't apply to anyone but I myself don't view myself a killer if I was put in a hard position of a person life if I were to become a superhero (kind of a moral issue). Sure justication is crying out for it (killed one to saved the many and etc) but that doesn't mean it will a easy toll for that superhero to do so. These sort of discussion can easily messed us up in a bad way.
 

4RM3D

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The rule is there to make sure you don't need a new super villain every 5 comics.

In the movies this is not an issue, because you have more super villains than you can make movies off.
 

Drake666

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TheCommanders said:
I think superheroes shouldn't kill vilains because it's not their job. They are not Judge (like Judge Dredd). They are, mostly, vigilente, yes, but it doesn't mean they want to be wanted by the police because they murdered supervilains. Furthermore, even state-appointed superheroes shouldn't have the rights to directly kill a supervillain. It opens to many ethical and moral questions.

The real problem is the justice system in the DC and Marvel universes. I don't understand HOW and WHY the Joker or any Batman vilain are kept in jail (or worse, an asylum). I though the emergance of superpowered individual would propulse the death sentance (or any definitive correctionnal solution) as one of the only sane way of dealing with supervilain.

If someone can burn to ashes 20,000 people in 1 min and is caught while trying to do it should definitly be judged guilty of attempt genocide and by executed AFTER it's trial. However, a quicker way of dispencing justice for supercriminal would be needed.

I've read a book that dealt with this situation in a nice way ("Wearing the cape"). In those book, the registered superheroes (only the alias are needed) are civilians that help for emergency situations (fire, cat in a tree, earthquake, supervilain) and sometimes cops ask for their help for heavely armed normals. The point is, they have this thing call an "open warrant"... it's a "dead or alive" warrant that, when emitted bu judge, means that a supervilain must be capture or killed if too powerful to restraint.

It seems more ethical and moral to kill in that situation, no ? A judge gave you the rights to apprenhend a crimial; if his resistance could endangered civilians, you can go harder on his ass :p
 

Sandernista

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TheCommanders said:
By all means, cherish all human life, be reluctant to kill people regardless of what they have done. I don't share that particular level of... generosity, but I respect it.
But that's the point of Supes, he does share that level of generosity. He believes at the core of his being that everyone is inherently good, and that there is always a way to save someone. He wouldn't be so super if his only way to stop crime is to just kill criminals, that would just make him a gun lobbyist.



The problem is that in the scenarios these heroes often find themselves in, choosing not to kill no matter what far more often than not leads quite directly to the deaths of others. So which lives do you value more? The crazy bastard who has killed 300 innocent people this week, or the 400 innocent people he will kill next week if you do not kill him before he has a chance? Either way, there WILL be blood on your hands, and you WILL be at least partly responsible for the deaths of others.
First of all how is it in any way a Superhero's fault for crimes a criminal commits? Is it your fault every time an innocent dies from a drone strike? You're not doing everything in your power to stop it, you have blood on your hands.

Second, cut to the quick, we're talking about the Joker. I would like to make this clear Batman's "no killing" rule comes from deep psychological trauma. The reason he doesn't kill the Joker is because Batman is fucking insane.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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I don't know why everybody's making such a fuss over Superman killing Zod. Didn't he do the same in Superman II? Hell, even Lois Lane killed one of the bad guys in that movie.
 

JimB

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Killing, like any form of harm, is generally accepted to be justified when it is committed to prevent an equal or greater harm against yourself or others (it's okay to kill someone trying to kill you; it's okay to slap a child's hand if he's about to stick it into a light socket). Since Superman cannot be harmed except by plot devices, and since he can prevent any harm to a third party without resorting to deadly force, it would require extraordinary circumstances for it to be morally okay for him to kill: There will almost never be a situation in which killing is the only available solution.
 

Abomination

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JimB said:
Killing, like any form of harm, is generally accepted to be justified when it is committed to prevent an equal or greater harm against yourself or others (it's okay to kill someone trying to kill you; it's okay to slap a child's hand if he's about to stick it into a light socket). Since Superman cannot be harmed except by plot devices, and since he can prevent any harm to a third party without resorting to deadly force, it would require extraordinary circumstances for it to be morally okay for him to kill: There will almost never be a situation in which killing is the only available solution.
They always occur though... if he meets a villain for a second time and that villain has killed someone AGAIN then it's a "fool me twice" scenario. It shows the villain should have been given a dirt nap the first time around.
 

Tom_green_day

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I don't read comic books, but judging by the films I've seen this rule was left by the wayside a long time ago. People die left, right and centre in films now.
Saying that, I'm not a huge super hero fan- I feel I can't relate to someone who's got some random magical superpowers or huge wealth to make robot suits or whatever. The only superhero films I've liked are Kick Ass and Jumper, and they're not exactly conventional superhero films.
 

JimB

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Abomination said:
If he meets a villain for a second time and that villain has killed someone again, then it's a "fool me twice" scenario. It shows the villain should have been given a dirt nap the first time around.
Except you're not killing the villain in defense of anyone then. You're killing him out of fear of what he might do, or out of guilt at what you failed to do. Self-defense only applies when the other guy's knife is drawn or his gun is cocked, and when you aren't capable of moving faster than the bullet ever could to catch it in your hands without suffering ill effect. Killing the bad guy in anything less than those circumstances isn't self-defense; it's execution, and even if we ignore the moral arguments against execution, Superman is a private individual given no power or authority by any government to execute citizens. If someone like him decides he has the right to decide who gets to die, then no one on the planet is safe from him and every government in the world would treat him as a threat to be destroyed by any means necessary because he would be a threat deserving of that status.