Unless you put them in the friend zone. Can't forget about the friend zone.Vault101 said:oh...well if its a gender thing (unlear) then this must mean I'm incredibly bangable!Zachary Amaranth said:
The things we like are just "things"
- Thread starter Vault101
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I'm pretty sure it's not only ancillary, but inaccurate as far as what Vault said. Now, she can correct me if I'm wrong, but since she addressed them based on a girl getting turned away at a store and her comments on this notion of them as a threat to gaming, I doubt some actresses playing games for cash on YouTube qualifies. I seriously doubt they're in any way harming geek culture in any applicable sense. The spectre Vault appears to be addressing is wholly or largely made up, and I'm not sure this is an appropriate example to the contrary.Weaver said:
That is to say, I doubt any of them are going to walk into a store looking for X-Men comics.
Of course they won't. the movies are for filthy casuals who don't know the true depth of the X-Men.mysecondlife said:
I obviously can't speak for anyone else but I think it gets to a point where someone's interests is all they have. Some people aren't particularly funny, attractive, out going or intelligent and all they have is their video games or their cartoons or their films and all you have is your small hobby which if you start talking indepth about the lore or series (e.g. MLP) you'll get mocked or just blank stares.
I'd say this is where that elitist attitude comes in, a mixture of not being able to talk about it outside a minority of people and those interests really being a bigger part of a person's life than they should be. It also doesn't help if you're disconnected from daily inteaction which, let's face it, you don't see many well adjusted elitists refusing money and sperging over their hobby because they see someone as a 'casual'.
I'd say this is where that elitist attitude comes in, a mixture of not being able to talk about it outside a minority of people and those interests really being a bigger part of a person's life than they should be. It also doesn't help if you're disconnected from daily inteaction which, let's face it, you don't see many well adjusted elitists refusing money and sperging over their hobby because they see someone as a 'casual'.
It was an aside in her original postZachary Amaranth said:
I wanted to highlight that they are not complete fiction. I have been going to conventions with women for years, been a gamer all my life, used to hang out in hobby stores as a kid. I have not once encountered a "fake geek girl" in real life. Not a single time, ever.
Conversely, nor have I encountered someone who goes up to them and grills them on minutia about whatever hobby they claim to hold in order to "catch them lying" or whatever.
If we're relegating the "fake gamer girl" to exist almost exclusively in the annals of the internet, I'd say in my experience the people that call them out on it are equally as rare in real life.
Do I think they're harming geek culture? No. Do I even really actually fucking care? No, I don't. I just hate people putting words into my mouth. I read what I felt was a factually incorrect statement so I offered up a well meaning clarification.
Then this is exactly what was mentioned before, a case of someone taking things so seriously that their build their whole identity on liking that thing. If your selfesteem can get destroyed by someone enjoying the things you like more casualy than you, than thats your problem for having way to fragile selfesteem.Redd the Sock said:
Talking about made up bogeyman...Vault101 said:
Did you at least poke some holes for air????Vault101 said:
Yes, I just addressed this. But let's go there again, I guess:Weaver said:
Relevance. Context. You even quoted exactly what I was referring to.
Then as far as is relevant to the post in question, you haven't made a case that they do exist. Like, seriously, actresses and models portraying them for money within the industry doesn't apply to the comments you responded to.
And that was my point last time, too.
Chris Tian said:
See, I see it the opposite: people with self esteem so fragile that people better than them at something make them feel awkward and not wanting to face higher challenges because hardship or failure hurts one's image of being perfect and and always giving their best at something. I mean, it speaks volumes about someone's character when doing on'es bestat it is "taking it too seriously." I try not to look down on such people, even if I do think they're cheating themselves out of some good experiences, but I only find myself mad when they do just what you're doing: complaining about my judgement of them, by passing judgement on me.Chris Tian said:
I am trying to think of any way the clerk may have been misunderstood and not (just) some form of sexist and/or elitist nerd.
I went into a comic book store about a year ago, trying to see if anything peaked my interest. The clerk was fine at helping me out even though I was a casual (if even that much). We were both males (side note I can recall having been treated as a casual from a female comic book store worker a long time ago. I can get into that story more if anyone is interested). The clerk said that a certain Wolverine spin off (I don't remember what it was called, but it had to do with Wolverine's son) comic was "adult", I am an adult so I though this might be what I am looking for. I looked through it, and it was not what I was looking for. If someone was trying to pick up this Wolverine's son comic book mistaking it for an X-Man comic, I can understand why someone would make an effort to interject on the possible mistake.
Just to make sure I am understood. I am only presenting a possible misunderstanding. I am not trying to start a flame war or hijack the topic. I quote the clerk as using the word adult to label the comic, and while still a code word is not the same code word as girly. I also understand that there may have been no misunderstanding what so ever.
I went into a comic book store about a year ago, trying to see if anything peaked my interest. The clerk was fine at helping me out even though I was a casual (if even that much). We were both males (side note I can recall having been treated as a casual from a female comic book store worker a long time ago. I can get into that story more if anyone is interested). The clerk said that a certain Wolverine spin off (I don't remember what it was called, but it had to do with Wolverine's son) comic was "adult", I am an adult so I though this might be what I am looking for. I looked through it, and it was not what I was looking for. If someone was trying to pick up this Wolverine's son comic book mistaking it for an X-Man comic, I can understand why someone would make an effort to interject on the possible mistake.
Just to make sure I am understood. I am only presenting a possible misunderstanding. I am not trying to start a flame war or hijack the topic. I quote the clerk as using the word adult to label the comic, and while still a code word is not the same code word as girly. I also understand that there may have been no misunderstanding what so ever.
Here is where you go wrong. For the "casuals" gaming/comics/whatever has nothing to do with selfesteem, they just want quick and effortless fun.Redd the Sock said:
Additionally I'm not really complaining, its more like condesending bafflement and I bet all those people that would fall in the "casual" or "faker gamer girl" categorie couldn't give a fuck even if they tried about passing some imaginary test of being worthy to enjoy something.
The only ones with a real problem are the people whos selfesteem is threatened by people taking their hobbys less serious. I wouldn't even call that real selfesteem.
Salus said:
MysticSlayer said:
Are you female? Because that's what Vault, Phasmal and I were talking about. You can't really tell just by looking whether a male customer is a "casual", but women are a much easier target.Weaver said:
And the part you miss is many of us don't care either about what you do either, but some actions seem to step on toes. Not reading the long book is fine. Complaining that the book is too long and how the book should be the length you want, not so much. I "casual" a lot of things, but I respect those that go more hardcore and I don't see the hobby as something that has to cater to me and my schedule or will. Hence "casualization" as an issue because it can dismantle things that enable those of us that want larger challenges due to the fear of casuals being left out of something. It can come off like "I don't want to work as hard as you for something, but I still want it," which when followed with the idea the hard work at a hobby is something doing it wrong, can feel like tolerance for each other isn't the goal, but domination of the hobby.Chris Tian said:
And why is the self esteem for hobby accomplishments not real? If I climbed a mountain I wouldn't be judged for that, but other than the skill set used, what's different than in beating a video game on the highest difficulty level? Both are about seeing a challenge and overcoming it. Self esteem often comes from one's accomplishments, and while they aren't the most important of accomplishments, it isn't as though they aren't real ones, be it the skill to face the hard game, the perseverance to continue when it stops being immediately fun, and even the occasional transferable skill like tactical thinking, problem solving, or just knowledge retention and retrieval.
No, and like I said, I probably haven't faced the nastier side of nerd culture personally because I do fit the general stereotype, and a big part of that is because I'm male. However, Vault's original post said that this wasn't supposed to entirely be a gender issue, and while many people commented on the issue of how women are treated, mine was meant more about exclusion in general, not just towards women, as that's what I thought the thread was supposed to be about in general. I wasn't trying to deny that women face discrimination, just that I don't think nerd culture is as exclusionary as some people claim it is. That's not to say, however, that I don't think exclusion can't happen, nor was I trying to saying that women don't face it any more than men.Eamar said:
Anyways, sorry for the confusion.
Oh no worries, the thread in general clearly isn't just about gender, it's just that the specific example of being patronised/ignored by shop staff is highly likely to be female-specific. I don't think anyone was claiming it should be unusual for guys not to have experienced it.MysticSlayer said:
I guess to me it just looked like several women saying "I have been treated differently because I'm female" and then a bunch of guys going, "huh, that's weird, it's never happened to me"
Climbing a mountain and beating a hard game is nor even remotely comparable. You compare that and call reading a long book or beating a hard game "working hard", so I'm just assuming you haven't done to many actually challenging things until now. Thats probably why you think its perfectly normal to build ones selfesteem on beeting a game and fearing the "casualization" of your hobbys. When you do something real the selfesteem build on that can't get dismantled by someone doing something similar just the easy way. Someone who climbed a mountain would not feel threatened by someone who took a skilift to the top.Redd the Sock said:
So basically it's different because you say so.Chris Tian said:
Let's try a different response: society just doesn't value nerdy skills so it has no problem trying to devalue them as "unimportant" even as it faces he prospect of being either unable or unwilling to meet them. We respect athletics so of course the guy that used a lift to reach a mountain top wouldn't dream of claiming they were as much a mountain climber as someone that went up by hand, or the weekend golfer wouldn't think (seriously) they were on par with someone on the PGA and claim elitism if they were kept out. But nerd hobbies are "unimportant and unvalued" so it's perfectly okay to disrespect efforts put into them, and turn around the elitism by claiming that, no, the nerds are now really the ones doing it wrong because they should only find self esteem in things society at larges thinks are important. Just because I can't or won't doing something difficult is no reason to show respect for those that did and admit that they're better at this stuff then me right?
I said at the top that attitudes like yours aren't helpful as it feeds into the elitism, not cuts through it. It starts from a place of seeing people that can't or won't attempt something difficult, and therein seeing merit in it as a challenge. The more people vilify "taking it too seriously" the easier it is to think that it isn't a jerky atitude they have a problem with, but the idea and existence of people that can say that it is unimportant, but I should do my best anyway. That you try to make the hardcore threatened by the casual to cover for how the casual is threatened by the hardcore.
It is very much a thing yes. its often quite obvious, even as a guy, for the opposite happens. I if walk into a comic store with a friend of mine, the staff talks to me and not her. Despite the fact that she is the one who both knows comics, and will actually be buying something.Dni0 said:
On topic, ya I would say its is mostly a i went to games as a fear response to society, I am often baffled by how much rare most people think geeky girls are. My brother on the other hand my bother seems to have picked up the gamer girls barely exist mind set, (not nearly to the extent of that stupid store clerk or really to "defending the hobby" thankfully.) and he has some social anxiety problems. This is also including the fact that we were both taught to play DND by our mother, who we also sat around and watched play final fantasy till we were old enough to play ourselves.
Because things are not just things, they're experiences. And experiences are the only important things in life. Which experiences are important to you personally are up to you, and the same experiences might not be important to someone else. However, when people share experiences and apply similar levels of importance to them, it creates a community, which is also a very important thing. People like the idea that their thoughts are shared by others, because it makes those thoughts seem more 'real', and it makes them feel accepted. This is the reason people have friends.Vault101 said:
Imagine that you're having a private conversation with a friend, about something only the two of you know anything about, but random people you've never heard of keep cutting in and trying to join the conversation and pretend they know what they're talking about. That would get annoying after a while, right? That would get old really fast.
And that's what happens in nerd culture all the time. That's why this exists, people who really like X-Men (for example) have gotten used to getting into conversations with people who pretend to like X-Men, but actually have no idea what they're talking about. They realize too late that talking to this person was just a waste of their time and effort, and they decide to be more careful in the future, which eventually leads them to just discount anyone and everyone who isn't a 'True X-Men Fan' or whatever. I'm not condoning the behavior or anything, I completely agree that people shouldn't just be dismissed for not being a fan of something ... but I do think I understand a little about where those people are coming from.
I don't see how climbing a mountain is any more challenging than beating a hard game. Just because one is a physical exertion and the other is mental doesn't mean they both don't take interest, dedication, skill, effort, forethought and planning, time investment, etc. If you want to actually 'work hard', try writing a game, or a book. Try solving P vs NP, that's a challenge if I've ever seen one.Chris Tian said:
He's not threatened by the person using the skilift. He's threatened by the possibility of the skilift becoming mandatory, and not being able to climb the mountain in the future. Nobody minds if someone plays 'casual' games, but if gaming undergoes this 'casualization', it creates a massive shortage of harder, more fun, and more interesting kinds of games. This is a very real threat (although, 'causal gamers' aren't really to blame), and it's already happening, it's been happening for years. Most modern games hold your hand and don't give you a choice about it, and if your hobby is playing games that aren't like that, then you're kind of starving on it at the moment, and it will only get worse from here.Chris Tian said: