The things we like are just "things"

[Redd the Sock]

Now imagine we want to delve into the history of the X-Men, but because we all didn't think it was important enough to take seriously, no one bothered to archive anything or even write a decent wikipedia page

Wait, since you're using this example, I really hope you're not inferring that the woman in the OP must have been a "casual". We have no way of knowing that, and nor did the asshole shop assistant - for all we know she could already be a hardcore fan of other comics (say DC, or perhaps more independent stuff) who just wants to try something different. Or perhaps she's a "hardcore" nerd in other ways who just never got into comics as a kid. The assumption that women can only be "casual" nerds is precisely the problem several of us have been railing against.

I said in my first post that there is unfair stereotyping that happens and that no, that isn't right. I've been trying to avoid the initial incident for this conversation because no one disagrees the guy was being an ass. It's just, for me at least, I never see this conversation stop with how the guy shouldn't be an ass, and instead derail into how nerds need to lighten up, need to not get self esteem from thing things we'd been getting self esteem from, and other attitudes that take an asshole as a jumping off point for attacking the idea of taking a hobby seriously, which to me has always rang hypocritical: don't you judge me for how I pursue a hobby, now let me pass judgement on you for how you do it (with the same level of stereotyping of your group that the asshole did unto ours).

Attack assholes all you want, but the topic wasn't much about that asshole, but about stereotyping and finding some self serving thing to blame for it.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Let's try a different response: society just doesn't value nerdy skills so it has no problem trying to devalue them as "unimportant" even as it faces he prospect of being either unable or unwilling to meet them.

Society does value nerd skills. A lawyer is just a professional nerd about law - they obsess about details that the rest of the world ignores. A doctor is a medical nerd. An engineer is a math nerd. This goes on and on but it might be simpler to put it another way. Society only cares about what you can offer it. If you devote nerd energy to memorizing things about Star Wars you are going to have a very hard time demonstrating how that is useful to society at large.

We respect athletics so of course the guy that used a lift to reach a mountain top wouldn't dream of claiming they were as much a mountain climber as someone that went up by hand, or the weekend golfer wouldn't think (seriously) they were on par with someone on the PGA and claim elitism if they were kept out.

Respect for athletics is broadly derived from the simple fact that achievements there are often the result of years or even decades of commitment to a course full of physical and emotional suffering. That makes it visceral. You might not have run a marathon but you've probably run until it hurts at least once and can rightly intuit that a person who has run a marathon must have suffered greatly. The achievement isn't the important part of athleticism - it's the brutal road it took to get there.

This is why you'll find that even when it comes to physical endeavors not everything reaches the same level of acclaim. Climbing a mountain is quite obviously dangerous and difficult and thus it's most famous exemplars receive wide acclaim outside of their community. Once every few years the world stops and watches people run very fast or dance with otherworldy grace and we marvel both at the achievement but perhaps more importantly at the implied or told story about how that athlete made it to the world stage. These people are respected because they suffered greatly for their craft and even though that craft is useless to the world it makes you stop and think maybe you can do that thing you've been putting off. Thus these athletes gain their acclaim because they indirectly offered the world something: they give out inspiration. But then there are bowlers, or pool players or dart throwers or golfers and we find that while they might be respected if they are at the very peak of their profession they do not achieve the same level of regard. And here it is simple enough to see why: these are people who do things other people do for fun - at best the only thing they offer the world is a chance to rub the fact that they literally play games for a living in all the faces. Ultimately being really good at playing a game is still just playing a game. The work it took to get there is no longer obvious; it doesn't hold a hot knife to your soul and dare you to try something hard.

But nerd hobbies are "unimportant and unvalued" so it's perfectly okay to disrespect efforts put into them, and turn around the elitism by claiming that, no, the nerds are now really the ones doing it wrong because they should only find self esteem in things society at larges thinks are important.

Where you find your self esteem is your business. If you want the world to care about you, you have to do something that the world wants or needs. Doing nerd things for your own amusement is fine - just don't expect the world to stop and wonder. And if you try and stand up and shout and scream that the world ought to care then you'd better have a hell of a show planned because, if not, what have you done but wasted the world's time? What right would you then have to take offense if the world responded with withering commentary when you interrupted them with nothing to sell and nothing to show?

 

[Redd the Sock]

But nerd hobbies are "unimportant and unvalued" so it's perfectly okay to disrespect efforts put into them, and turn around the elitism by claiming that, no, the nerds are now really the ones doing it wrong because they should only find self esteem in things society at larges thinks are important.

Where you find your self esteem is your business. If you want the world to care about you, you have to do something that the world wants or needs. Doing nerd things for your own amusement is fine - just don't expect the world to stop and wonder. And if you try and stand up and shout and scream that the world ought to care then you'd better have a hell of a show planned because, if not, what have you done but wasted the world's time? What right would you then have to take offense if the world responded with withering commentary when you interrupted them with nothing to sell and nothing to show?

I'm largely fine with this as long as it's two way. Don't expect me to concern myself with the self esteem of a casual whose feelings I might hurt if they aren't going to concern themselves with mine because they aren't doing shit for me either.

I mean, ironically, I'm not trying to be defensive about my personal choices, but rather spell out a cause of the tension felt. That the people wondering why hardcores have issues with casuals respond with vilification, indifference, hostility and efforts (perhaps unintentionally) to dismantle and devalue the source of their self esteem, then get surprised when people treated like that don't suddenly want to be best friends. I just wouldn't expect to be welcomed to any kind of club or social grouping by insulting the people in it.

 

[Phasmal]

I'm largely fine with this as long as it's two way. Don't expect me to concern myself with the self esteem of a casual whose feelings I might hurt if they aren't going to concern themselves with mine because they aren't doing shit for me either.

I mean, ironically, I'm not trying to be defensive about my personal choices, but rather spell out a cause of the tension felt. That the people wondering why hardcores have issues with casuals respond with vilification, indifference, hostility and efforts (perhaps unintentionally) to dismantle and devalue the source of their self esteem, then get surprised when people treated like that don't suddenly want to be best friends. I just wouldn't expect to be welcomed to any kind of club or social grouping by insulting the people in it.

I think the problem everyone seems to be contributing to is presenting this issue as just two sides.

First of all, we have no definitive way to determine whether someone is `Hardcore` or not, what makes someone hardcore is a very subjective thing to most people.
Secondly, not all hardcore people are angry or `tense` at casuals at all. I feel no hatred towards casuals, I welcome them. More the merrier.
I can have self esteem in my hobby while others think it's stupid and childish.

Casuals aren't asking to become your best friend. They're asking not to be dismissed on that basis.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I mean, ironically, I'm not trying to be defensive about my personal choices, but rather spell out a cause of the tension felt. That the people wondering why hardcores have issues with casuals respond with vilification, indifference, hostility and efforts (perhaps unintentionally) to dismantle and devalue the source of their self esteem, then get surprised when people treated like that don't suddenly want to be best friends. I just wouldn't expect to be welcomed to any kind of club or social grouping by insulting the people in it.

If you're digging around trying to find some philosophical justification for being a jerk you won't find it in my post. You are not "the world" - you're just a person. And when you are in a game with people and you start yelling and shouting and saying whatever it is you are likely to say to a filthy casual who isn't playing well enough for your liking then you are failing at the bargain just as assuredly as they are. What you are offering in that context is your participation and your skills. If you offer up a side of petulant jackassery your other contribution is nullified instantly which leads directly back to the part where you aren't offering the world anything worthy of its time.

To use a sports metaphor if you are in a game and you're being a jerk because your team isn't putting in an effort that you are satisfied with that makes you into the sadistic coach who works people to collapse without any design or purpose. You are the asthma that conspires to leave them gasping. You are their mortal fear of heights and cold that sways most people from ever climbing a rock. You are an obstacle in their story. You are the bad guy. You become the person who, if the story goes well, they had to triumph over on their way to success.

If there is a lesson there its simple: if you want to be valuable having skills is important. Managing your reactions and emotions to a useful end is one of the most useful skills you can offer the world (Even if the world will never ask for that directly). Don't be an obstacle - people have plenty of them without your help and at best all you'll ever be is a problem they overcame. At best that route only leads to defeat. Learn what it means to teach and at worst you gave the undeserving an effort. At best you share in their future victories just the same as if you took the field with them. At worst you still win and at your best you get to win many times long after your time with that other person is finished.