The Twin Paradox.

Recommended Videos

ThreeWords

New member
Feb 27, 2009
5,179
0
0
One brother has travelled at massive speeds relative to the other, and he has thus aged a different rate relative to his brother.

This is all true, and I fail to understand the problem
 

Viperus

New member
Apr 21, 2009
10
0
0
martin said:
This answer seems to make sense. Is there footage or anything of the test?
Not that I know of, but it is well known that clocks in satellites (which are orbiting the earth at a very high speed for years) have only a few seconds delay.

This is the formula (I think, I might be wrong though) to measure difference in time when moving close to 300 000 km/s, aka time dilation

T = Te * square root of ( 1 - (v*v)/(c*c))

v is our speed, c is speed of light, Te is time passed on earth , T is the time that passed for the traveler

so lets say we are riding a bike, 10kmh for 10 hrs, that would mean

10 = Te * sqrt (1- 100/(a very very big number) )

meaning

Te = 10 / sqrt(1- 0.000000000.....1)= 10 / sqrt 0.9999...999 = 10 / 0.99999999999999999 equals slightly bit more then 10h. So tehnically, every time we ride a bike, we slow down time around us, but the difference is so minimal, that in regular physics we just assume that both times are the same. Thats why we use these formulas only in special relative physics.

but if you travel at a speed of 298 000 km/s for 10 hrs (thats [298 000 * 3600]kmh)

10 = Te * sqrt (1 - 0,9867)

swap the numbers a little

Te = 10/ sqrt (0,0133) = 10/ 0,115 = 86,95h
 

klakkat

New member
May 24, 2008
825
0
0
Shine-osophical said:
klakkat said:
(snip snip snip)
But relative to the guy on the space ship the earth is the one that accelerates/decelerates so I don't think the paradox is solved so simply.
It is solved that simply. One of the other details which I forgot above (it's been a long time since I've solved the twin paradox, give me a break) are the end points of the journey. You have two end points, the earth and the destination star. Neither of these points move relative to each other, so we have a good basis for measuring an absolute distance (which is defined as the distance between two points stationary to each other as measured from a point stationary to both end points). Because the ship travels between the end points but those points don't move relative to each other, the relativistic effects are exactly as would be predicted by considering the Earth stationary in the exercise.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the correct answer can be calculated from ANY inertial reference frame. So, if one frame ends up having only a single solution, then that one must be correct, and calculations from other reference frames must correspond to that solution. In this case, when we treat the Earth as stationary and calculate events from the perspective of the twin on Earth, there is only one possible solution (if you do the math right). This is still a physical argument not a mathematical one; mathematics allows for multiple solutions, but in physics there is only a single outcome.

Maraveno said:
Time won't change the fact that you're speeding that much will age the person

It might seem real strange but the fact of the matter is that time is the one true unchangable thing
unless proven otherwise

A human can age quicker in certain conditions
meaning : Both brothers might actually just have stayed the same age just be looking older
That Time is immutable and constant for the universe is a common misconception. In physics, we often consider time and distance in the same units (I.E. we multiply time by velocity to get a distance, or divide distance by a velocity to get a unit of time, etc; most often expressed as a multiple of c, the speed of light). While I haven't done much with general relativity, special relativity is enough to show that time is indeed variable. Einstein's theory of special relativity is quite literally proven at this point, as we have conducted multiple experiments that show time does change with velocity. In fact, a number of phenomena we see in electromagnetism cannot be explained without reliance on relativity.

Believe me when I say, this is not some "hocus pocus" bullshit thought up by physicists to annoy people; this is real. It happens, and it explains a lot about our universe. Common sense and intuition are very poor guides in physics, as at high velocity and at atomic scale things do not behave as you would think based on observations about the normal world.

Maraveno said:
Maze1125 said:
Maraveno said:
It might seem real strange but the fact of the matter is that time is the one true unchangable thing
unless proven otherwise
Which it has been.
I don't think that proved enough could still be a circuit snapping under high pressure
When a circuit 'snaps' it just breaks and stops functioning at all. It NEVER produces consistent, reproduceable results, which is what we've seen in experiments regarding relativity. There is also a wealth of evidence that isn't reliant on the clocks experiment which cannot, at any point, be blamed on faulty electronics.
 

Crofty

New member
Sep 17, 2008
147
0
0
There is one flaw in this special relativity paradox. The fact that there is about as much observed evidence that special relativity is correct as there is for the existence of God. Einstein's mathemetics and theory were genius, I'm not disputing that, but I won't assume that the universe obeys mathematics and theory.
Controversial I know, and I'm fully expecting a good flaming, but when you flame me, please tell me when anyone has observed travelling at 99.9% the speed of light, then gone on to observe an alteration in time while traveling at such speeds.
 

Eldritch Warlord

New member
Jun 6, 2008
2,901
0
0
There's no paradox, time is simply not homogeneous. For the traveler time is slowed. For the twin left behind time does not change rate.

The paradox would be the traveler coming back the same age as his/her twin despite this fact of relativity.
 

klakkat

New member
May 24, 2008
825
0
0
Ultracake said:
Paradoxes are Paradoxes because they are unsolvable, Or never end
A "paradox" is a misunderstanding of initial terms, or an intentional logical trap that must be constructed. There are no paradoxes in nature.

Unit Alpha said:
Time is relative. So I'd say that the idea that the one traveling at the speed of light shouldn't have aged 40 years less than the one on earth. It's like saying that if I drive around in a car at 60 miles an hour, I'll somehow age slightly slower.

For you to age slower, you would have to being going at FTL speeds, not sub-light speeds. Of course this makes it impossible because FTL travel is impossible without wormholes, etc.
Incorrect. Relativity allows for time dilation at sub-light speeds. And, technically, you do age slower going in a car at 60 miles an hour (though the difference is immeasurably small). I suggest you do a wiki search on Special Relativity.

obliterate said:
I have a better idea...what about if we travel at the speed of light and held a mirror in front of our faces...light has to reflect of your face so you can see it but if you are traveling at the speed of light what will happen ?
Light travels at the speed of light regardless of the velocity of the observer, this is one of the key concepts of relativity actually. To see any noticeable changes, you would have to be moving near light speed relative to the mirror; otherwise it would look exactly the same no matter how fast you are moving.

Crofty said:
There is one flaw in this special relativity paradox. The fact that there is about as much observed evidence that special relativity is correct as there is for the existence of God. Einstein's mathemetics and theory were genius, I'm not disputing that, but I won't assume that the universe obeys mathematics and theory.
Controversial I know, and I'm fully expecting a good flaming, but when you flame me, please tell me when anyone has observed travelling at 99.9% the speed of light, then gone on to observe an alteration in time while traveling at such speeds.
Einstein's theories are supported by mountains of evidence that don't rely on us sending a clock up in a spaceship. There are BILLIONS of ways to conduct these experiments, and we physicists have explored many of them. The universe does, in fact, behave in ways that are described by Einstein's mathematics.

Many common technologies you are familiar with rely on an understanding of relativistic and quantum effects. The cosmic ray telescope, which I've worked on, relies entirely on relativistic effects to function. God hasn't given us technology and physical works with which to understand the universe, Einstein HAS.
 

Crofty

New member
Sep 17, 2008
147
0
0
klakkat said:
Crofty said:
There is one flaw in this special relativity paradox. The fact that there is about as much observed evidence that special relativity is correct as there is for the existence of God. Einstein's mathemetics and theory were genius, I'm not disputing that, but I won't assume that the universe obeys mathematics and theory.
Controversial I know, and I'm fully expecting a good flaming, but when you flame me, please tell me when anyone has observed travelling at 99.9% the speed of light, then gone on to observe an alteration in time while traveling at such speeds.
Einstein's theories are supported by mountains of evidence that don't rely on us sending a clock up in a spaceship. There are BILLIONS of ways to conduct these experiments, and we physicists have explored many of them. The universe does, in fact, behave in ways that are described by Einstein's mathematics.

Many common technologies you are familiar with rely on an understanding of relativistic and quantum effects. The cosmic ray telescope, which I've worked on, relies entirely on relativistic effects to function. God hasn't given us technology and physical works with which to understand the universe, Einstein HAS.
Can you give an example of how the evidence was found please? Sorry if my skepticism seems stupid, it's just when the only examples of a theory that I've ever seen involve a spaceship travelling at 99.9% of the speed of light it is a bit difficult to believe.
 

Stickynote74

New member
May 4, 2009
59
0
0
Both are correct I think, you said that you are not moving now, sitting at the computer, but at the same time you are moving at however fast the earth is moving around the sun. Apply the same thought to the twin paradox, and you might get your answer. Or I might just be completely wrong.
 

Maze1125

New member
Oct 14, 2008
1,679
0
0
Crofty said:
klakkat said:
Crofty said:
There is one flaw in this special relativity paradox. The fact that there is about as much observed evidence that special relativity is correct as there is for the existence of God. Einstein's mathemetics and theory were genius, I'm not disputing that, but I won't assume that the universe obeys mathematics and theory.
Controversial I know, and I'm fully expecting a good flaming, but when you flame me, please tell me when anyone has observed travelling at 99.9% the speed of light, then gone on to observe an alteration in time while traveling at such speeds.
Einstein's theories are supported by mountains of evidence that don't rely on us sending a clock up in a spaceship. There are BILLIONS of ways to conduct these experiments, and we physicists have explored many of them. The universe does, in fact, behave in ways that are described by Einstein's mathematics.

Many common technologies you are familiar with rely on an understanding of relativistic and quantum effects. The cosmic ray telescope, which I've worked on, relies entirely on relativistic effects to function. God hasn't given us technology and physical works with which to understand the universe, Einstein HAS.
Can you give an example of how the evidence was found please? Sorry if my skepticism seems stupid, it's just when the only examples of a theory that I've ever seen involve a spaceship travelling at 99.9% of the speed of light it is a bit difficult to believe.
Atomic clocks placed on ships in orbit end up seconds behind equivalent clocks in labs on the ground. This happens every time and is far outside the margin for error for the clocks. The only explanation is time-dilation.

An example from earlier in the thread was about particles that, classically, would decay too quickly for us to detect, yet we still detect them.

Also, we observe several phenomena in space thanks to gravitational lensing. An effect that simply wouldn't exist without General Relativity.
 

TimeLord

For the Emperor!
Legacy
Aug 15, 2008
7,508
3
43
I understood everything up until the last paragraph about the Earth moving at light speed 0.o

But why 99.999% the speed of light and not 100%? Would that cancel out the theory?
 

Sorceror Nobody

New member
Dec 24, 2008
11
0
0
How many times do we have to give the answer to this? The paradox has been answered at least two or three times so far in this thread, it isn't actually a paradox, and Einstein and Relativity are CORRECT AND PROVEN (or at least, as much as any theory ever is known to be). Welcome to the internet, where a perfect answer (or several) is never good enough to stop people asking. The universe is weird, people. Get over it, and be grateful that this is the relativity half of the universe, because the other half of the universe (quantum physics) is even weirder!


Timelord91 said:
But why 99.999% the speed of light and not 100%? Would that cancel out the theory?
It's not that it'd cancel out the theory. It's that objects with subluminal (slower-than-light) velocities cannot ever reach the speed of light. Equally, superluminals (if they exist) can't SLOW DOWN to the speed of light. It's a universal speed barrier that works both ways. The only things that can travel AT lightspeed are massless particles, most obviously photons (which ARE light), and they ALWAYS travel exactly at lightspeed.

Also, to give closure to my earlier post:
Sorceror Nobody said:
Another example is the oh-so-convincing but fundamentally flawed one (Zeno's, I think?) about one object never catching up with another despite it going much faster, because the distance between them is infinitely divided. It was eventually solved with Isaac Newton's invention of differential calculus, and the solution is that the division of the gap between the objects approaches a limit at infinity, at which it still tends towards zero distance in a finite amount of time, meaning that the pursuing (faster) object catches up with the fleeing (slower) one. Or something like that, anyway. I'd have to check the maths properly to be sure, and I'm too tired right now.
My tiredness made me make a small error: it uses integral calculus, not differential. As I expected, it took me under five minutes to do. For anyone who cares, the general solution is that the pursuing object catches up at t = sqrt(2x/(v(n-1))), where x is the initial separation, v is the speed of the fleeing object, and n is the speed of the pursuing object as a multiple of v. Of course, common sense says that if their speed is the same, the pursuer never catches up. Let's see: n = 1, so t = infinity, i.e. never catches up. Perfect!
 

martin's a madman

New member
Aug 20, 2008
2,319
0
0
Viperus said:
martin said:
This answer seems to make sense. Is there footage or anything of the test?
Not that I know of, but it is well known that clocks in satellites (which are orbiting the earth at a very high speed for years) have only a few seconds delay.

This is the formula (I think, I might be wrong though) to measure difference in time when moving close to 300 000 km/s, aka time dilation

T = Te * square root of ( 1 - (v*v)/(c*c))

v is our speed, c is speed of light, Te is time passed on earth , T is the time that passed for the traveler

so lets say we are riding a bike, 10kmh for 10 hrs, that would mean

10 = Te * sqrt (1- 100/(a very very big number) )

meaning

Te = 10 / sqrt(1- 0.000000000.....1)= 10 / sqrt 0.9999...999 = 10 / 0.99999999999999999 equals slightly bit more then 10h. So tehnically, every time we ride a bike, we slow down time around us, but the difference is so minimal, that in regular physics we just assume that both times are the same. Thats why we use these formulas only in special relative physics.

but if you travel at a speed of 298 000 km/s for 10 hrs (thats [298 000 * 3600]kmh)

10 = Te * sqrt (1 - 0,9867)

swap the numbers a little

Te = 10/ sqrt (0,0133) = 10/ 0,115 = 86,95h
That is awesome! So if I understood what you wrote properly the end result is that Te = 86,95 hours while the person traveling at 298 000km/s would only perceive it as 10 hours? Correct?
 

klakkat

New member
May 24, 2008
825
0
0
Crofty said:
klakkat said:
Crofty said:
There is one flaw in this special relativity paradox. The fact that there is about as much observed evidence that special relativity is correct as there is for the existence of God. Einstein's mathemetics and theory were genius, I'm not disputing that, but I won't assume that the universe obeys mathematics and theory.
Controversial I know, and I'm fully expecting a good flaming, but when you flame me, please tell me when anyone has observed travelling at 99.9% the speed of light, then gone on to observe an alteration in time while traveling at such speeds.
Einstein's theories are supported by mountains of evidence that don't rely on us sending a clock up in a spaceship. There are BILLIONS of ways to conduct these experiments, and we physicists have explored many of them. The universe does, in fact, behave in ways that are described by Einstein's mathematics.

Many common technologies you are familiar with rely on an understanding of relativistic and quantum effects. The cosmic ray telescope, which I've worked on, relies entirely on relativistic effects to function. God hasn't given us technology and physical works with which to understand the universe, Einstein HAS.
Can you give an example of how the evidence was found please? Sorry if my skepticism seems stupid, it's just when the only examples of a theory that I've ever seen involve a spaceship travelling at 99.9% of the speed of light it is a bit difficult to believe.
I don't mean to sound rude, but you really do need to look it up. The Wiki article on relativity is a good place to start, but the math is extremely complicated in parts for people unfamiliar with physics. As others stated, there has been physical tests involving the most direct analogy (atomic clocks in fast-moving planes) but relativistic effects are also crucial to elecromagnetic field theory. I don't have the time or inclination to hold physics class in a forum (no one would read it anyway), so the best advice I can offer besides the information already provided is to research the matter on your own. There are a large number of books on relativity out there, some specifically written for the layman. If you truly wish to know more about how the universe operates, there are many books on the topic, and you can always use Wiki as a starting point. From my experience, the majority of physics articles are correct in as much material as is presented.

Also, relativistic effects can be seen on nanosecond scale at more familiar speeds, around the 1,000 km/h, and we have technology to measure nanosecond scale time differences (I've worked with some of this technology personally, though not on relativity experiments. We can actually measure nearly picosecond time differences). Traveling at 99.9% the speed of light is unnecessary to see relativistic effects; effects on normal scale (second-range) can be seen around 1% of the speed of light.
 

Jirlond

New member
Jul 9, 2009
809
0
0
Because the progression of the universe theoretically happens at the speed of light - if you travelled at that speed you would not be affected by the changes of the universe. You could effectively outrun the effects.
 

Crystalgate

New member
Feb 7, 2009
86
0
0
Shine-osophical said:
Crystalgate said:
Shine-osophical said:
But relative to the guy on the space ship the earth is the one that accelerates/decelerates so I don't think the paradox is solved so simply.
Nope, acceleration is not relative. You can always tell whether or not you're accelerating. Just because velocity is relative, it doesn't mean acceleration is.
But acceleration is the change in velocity over a given time. So relative to the spaceship, the Earth's velocity would change (accelerates/deceleration) and the spaceship would be stationary.
Ever been in a car? If you close your eyes (or just don't look at the scenery outside the car) and plug your ears so you don't hear the engine noise and the road is smooth, you cannot tell how fast your car is moving. However, if the driver floors the gas and the car now suddenly accelerates, you will feel as if you were pushed backwards into the seat. Likewise, if the driver slams the brakes, you will also feel it, only this time the apparent pull is to the other direction.

Let's take an example with two spaceships instead. Let's say that they aren't moving relative to each other, the distance between them remains the same. Also, in your spaceship theres a soccer ball floating in the middle of the largest room. You look away from the other ship and talk to your crew-mate. When you look back to the other ship, you see that it seems to be coming towards you rapidly.

Now, is it your ship that's moving towards the other ship or is it the other ship moving towards your ship? Or maybe both ships are moving towards each other? There's no way to tell, which it is depends on the point of reference. However, you can tell whether or not your ship accelerates. Other than the fact that had your ship accelerated, you would have felt it just as if your car accelerated, you can also look at the soccer ball. If it was your ship which roared it's engine and accelerated, the ball would have started to move towards the rear of your ship. If it was instead the other ship which accelerated, the soccer ball would have remained where it is.

Which ship is moving and which is standing still changes nothing, but which ship it was that accelerated does however change things. In one of the cases, the soccer ball would have moved relative to your ship while in the other case the soccer ball would have remained where it is relative to your ship.