The ultra rich dodge taxes on 20+ trillion dollars. In other news, water is damp.

[Worgen]

Maybe we should set a limit on what a single person or family can have, any higher than that and we sent out a team of raptors to bite their asses or some bloodthirsty accountants.

And then we reach the point where families who make any more money than the limit lets them own hide it from the state, putting us in the same situation.

I don't have a solution to all this, by the way. I'm just going to sit here and poke holes in everyones theories, just to emphasis just how fucked we are.

That is the beauty of it, it gives real incentive for the govt to hire the best accountants it can and get all that extra dosh.

Do you seriously think 20+ TRILLION dollars aren't enough incentive? "Yeah, we could pay off the majority of our debts with these missing taxes and we could hunt it down but... Nah. Maybe if they notch the figure up to 50 trillion we'll bother."

Actually I am interested to see what happens because of this story, its one thing to just hear that some group has a bunch of money but when its put out there like this, that tends to get a bit more attention, especially since we are entering an election cycle with an utterly retarded amount of money flowing around. You can bet your butt taxation of the rich will be one of the hot button issues also.

 

[Esotera]

So how much of a percentage is this of currency in existence? It doesn't really surprise me, and hopefully it will be a very high percentage, making this position absolutely untenable in the long-term.

 

[Avalanche91]

Putting it in a historic perspective, every time the divide between rich and poor gets too large, there will be revolts. The whole Occupy movement was just a herald for things to come if the divide gets worse.
And because it will get worse, I'm betting revolts will actually get pretty damn violent within 25 years.

Keeping with the historic perspective; I remember last time there was a big revolt against the elite, literal heads were rolling. I'm all for keeping this tradition in tact.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Discuss? Yous sound like an angry hippy protesting 'the man' and his 'economy wealth'. You sound like you should be camped out in front of wallstreet. You sound like you should be leading a revolution in some underdeveloped African country. You sound like... oh wait, discuss the new story? Opps, my bad.

I think that if that money had actually been taxed we'd still be where we are today, countries would just have more zeros on the amount they are making and owe. Financial mismanagement would still exist and things would still suck, it just be with proportionally bigger numbers. If the money were all taxed, sure it would fix some issue but we'd blow it all right away and eventually grin ourselfs back to this same spot. Even if people are pulling money out of the world economy a good economic system would ensure that everything runs smoother by downsizing. and working only with the money it does have. There are deeper issue then just a bunch of rich people with tax loopholes.

Also, the rich still pay the majority of taxes in the US, both in amount and proportion. I wonder how much more they would pay if the government could count all the money they really have...

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Putting it in a historic perspective, every time the divide between rich and poor gets too large, there will be revolts. The whole Occupy movement was just a herald for things to come if the divide gets worse.
And because it will get worse, I'm betting revolts will actually get pretty damn violent within 25 years.

Keeping with the historic perspective; I remember last time there was a big revolt against the elite, literal heads were rolling. I'm all for keeping this tradition in tact.

Personally I don't see a revolution of any sorts any time soon, no matter how shite it gets (I'm talking about Britain and the US). The problem with a lot of people today are that they're INCREDIBLY apathetic, they're not gonna be willing to fight and die against anyone because "someone else'll sort it out". Also, I'm pretty sure if they could the British and US armies could wipe out any revolutionary forces with a quick swoop. All they have to do is say they're terrorists.

OT: Like what I've just said, I'm very apathetic. I'm only 14 for gods sake, it's not like I can do anything at all. And the adults of today have pretty much fucked my chances of success for tomorrow, what with university fees and more idiotic test systems and that. I care about the story of course, but really whining about it on an internet forum's not going to help anybody.

 

[Heaven's Guardian]

You mean that a group for "tax justice" happens to believe that an amount of money that could basically solve every problem in the world is being hidden away in tax shelters by the rich so that everyone else can't get at it? Come on, this study is nonsense. A few hundred billion? Sure, makes sense; there's enough money and corruption to get away with that. 20+ trillion? I find this study to be an insult to my intelligence. The gross world product last year was about $70 trillion, so nearly a third of the world's money is not being held in secret bank accounts. In fact, since there isn't even actually that much money in the world, considering that a lot of this is the recycling of money that gets counted many times, there is no way this can be true.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Like any complicated maths question I'm gonna have to ask to see the working out before I grade the answer.
The graphic they based their story on labels Belarus as Poland, and states that the Isle of Man, Ireland, and the UK are Tax havens. Really?

Also, the wealth transferred is over a period of between 20 - 40 years, and I wonder if they count money going out of these havens as well as coming in, cause that is a pretty big issue right there.
Finally, the 9.8 trillion is financial assets owned by the 91,000 people. Assets is not just a stack of money in a vault Scrooge Macduck style, but the estimated prices of all their property, companies, possessions, etc, which they will be paying tax on.

That said, it is well known people do this. Lewis Hamilton the British Formula one driver has all his money paid into a Swiss bank, so he doesn't pay tax on his winnings, and Phil Collins moved to Switzerland and lives there permanently now. I just think this colourful map with no sources may be a bit exaggerated.

 

[Theseus32]

You mean that a group for "tax justice" happens to believe that an amount of money that could basically solve every problem in the world is being hidden away in tax shelters by the rich so that everyone else can't get at it? Come on, this study is nonsense. A few hundred billion? Sure, makes sense; there's enough money and corruption to get away with that. 20+ trillion? I find this study to be an insult to my intelligence. The gross world product last year was about $70 trillion, so nearly a third of the world's money is not being held in secret bank accounts. In fact, since there isn't even actually that much money in the world, considering that a lot of this is the recycling of money that gets counted many times, there is no way this can be true.

Actually 20 trillion is a VERY conservative estimate. They're saying it could be over 36 trillion, so potentially over half of the annual GWP, just sitting there. And again that's not counting tax shelters that are harder to track, like billion dollar homes and yachts made of caviar. Hidden money is hidden.

The big takeaway from this is that the global divide between the rich and the poor has been massively underestimated. And what we THOUGHT it was was enough to kickstart a dozen revolutions.

And again, this is on the back of the niggling fact that they've apparently been treating the 70 trillion derivatives market as their own personal piggybank. And yeah. Same dudes.

What we have here is global institutionalized corruption on a scale never seen before. Never imagined before. Closest was the fall of the Han dynasty in china. And that did not end well.

 

[Reginald]

Invade the caymans, steal ALL the money, hang the fuckers, solve hunger in Africa, the US debt and pretty much everything that is wrong with the world that can be fixed with money.

But- but- job creators! But- but- bootstraps! But- but- sow-shoe-liz 'em!

 

[Theseus32]

Honestly, what bugs me is that if these are the supposed "job creators" then why don't they use that massive pile of cash to... create some jobs?

other references
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/21/global-elite-tax-offshore-economy
http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_content.php?idcat=148

 

[Theseus32]

And none of them will see a day of jail time on account of owning every judicial system on the planet. They'll send a few scapegoats in middle management up the river and then get back to wallpapering their homes with Mondrians.

Case in point, United Technologies. Caught bang to rights selling secret military technology to china. Made billions doing it. Were fined 75 million and asked very nicely not to do it again. Actual treason, and their only punishment is a slap on the wrist and a disapproving glare. Treason. As in the stuff we're supposed to punish with the freaking death penalty.

It's a different set of rules for these people and they're starving the world to death to live these unimaginably lavish lifestyles.

I have no problem with people being rich. I have no problem with them being obnoxiously rich. I have a big problem with them bending, breaking and outright raping the corpse of the rules to do it though.

Is it still "redistributing wealth" when you ask nicely for the trillions they stole back?

 

[Theseus32]

To further put it into perspective, if this money had been being taxed, if these shelters had been eliminated, there would be no debt crisis in africa, spain, greece, the UK, the US or anywhere else on earth.

Although I agree that this is appalling, more so infact than I had anticipated. The governments actually having this money wouldn't have meant that all these issues would have been fixed. They'd probably have frittered it away on stupid unnecessary shit. Although we likely wouldn't be in the crisis we're currently in.

Yeah I'll freely admit that world governments are every bit as corrupt, if not more so. Any time you allow any kind of campaign contributions you're essentially allowing institutionalized bribery. Money is speech my ass.

And again, not pointing fingers. This is most, if not all governments on earth.

 

[Edible Avatar]

some days i long to read a head line that states "caymen islands banking system hacked, 30 trillion dollars stolen and in an unrelated story hundreds of billions given to charities world wide in anonymous donations"

The charities would be forced to return it at gunpoint. Better method?

Burn it.
Less money in the system reels back inflation, meaning everyone else's money is now worth slightly more >

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I'm certainly no communist, but seriously, enough with this shit! What on Earth is even the point of having money if your just going to hide it away while it does nothing? You do that and it's just numbers on somebody's computer, not benefiting anyone, yourself included.

If you want to be rich, be rich. Fine by me, I have no problem with that whatsoever. But if you happen to be so rich that you can afford to hide billions away without it even affecting you, then start giving to charity instead, or use it to create some jobs, or invest it space programs and genetic research so your money can help us all reach that magical future we've been waiting for; or, hell, just spend it on anything that takes your fancy, at least then you're contributing to the wider economy.

What you don't do, is hog it all for no reason, like a petulant child who doesn't want to play with his ball, but won't let anyone else play with it either, especially if you're then going to try and claim that you and people like you being that stupidly rich is what keeps the world turning!

Here in the UK and across Europe (and I assume America as well), public services are being cut left right and centre. I don't like it, but up to a point I accept it. We all have to make sacrifices in a downturn, and to be honest none of us can really absolve ourselves of blame for getting into this mess in the first place (None of us thought to question the banker's practices when their interest rates were good did we? We took debt for granted when everything was 'buy now, pay later') but this shit has to stop! If these people can afford to keep this much money off the map doing nothing for them or anyone else, then they can afford to pay their mother-fucking taxes at the very least!

 

[Russirishican]

Oh, I can't wait for the annex, and the inevitable cry of the formerly-rich shouting "You can't do this!" falling on deaf ears.

Viva la Revolution!