The Unsolved Mysteries Of 40K: A Good Old Discussion

[The Blue Mongoose]

The Eldar and the Ork (Originally Krork) were created to fight the Necrons by the Old Ones, and hence why the Tyranids are considered to be possibly the final, desperate play by said Old Ones.

Back again! They've changed that too! Weren't the Orks previously created by the Tech Priests of Mars as new grunt troups to send as cannon fodder (like Orgrins)? They then of course lost control of the Orks and they ran off to do their own thing...

Thought of something else... The Black Templar abhor mutants, witches (psychers) etc... How do they navigate through the warp? They can't use Navigators (note the capital N), they're psychers and mutants (they have the Warp Eye on their heads...).

Possibly the Emperor's Champion has a phychic link with the Emperor? So they then navigate the warp by the Astronomicon that way? (After all... they're made Emperor's Champion after a vision is granted them by the Emperor...)

Also, I like to think that the Laughing God is just another face of Tzeench... and that Khain is another face of Khorne... Basically that the Chaos Gods really love to mess with the Eldar.

 

[Traun]

Didn't the original lore for the Tyranids feature Genestealer cults... people who worshipped something and got turned into Genestealers? Or something? I'm not that up on my Tyranids...

I do however have a problem with some of the Space Marine lore...

Take for example my beloved Black Templars. There was a time when they were a lone chapter, lead by the Emperor's Champion, a God amongst Space Marines who fought Daemons mano a mano (or is that mano a diablo?). They were fragmented and small, but did not suffer from the genetic deterioration of the other chapters and stuck very close to the teachings of the Imperial Cult, ie. no Psychers (they went into a frenzy when they saw one).

Now they are a large chapter, thought to be the largest, broken into several mini-chapters ("Crusades"), EACH ONE lead by an Emperor's Champion! There are thought to be at least 13 of these groups! HOLY SHIT! If they all went to the Eye of Terror with Imperial Guard support and maybe some other chapters (some Grey Knights and maybe other Ordo Malleus...) Chaos would be FUCKED!

This discrepancy causes me rather a bit of irritation. (I don't need to mention what this would make of the Land Raider Crusader do I?)

The Eye of Terror is a massive warp storm, the only races capable of traveling in it are the Tau and the Necrons, due to the fact that their ships do not use the warp to move, however the Tau aren't close enough to the eye and the Necrons don't care. It may be possible for the Eldar race, however their minds will be destroyed the moment they enter it.

What I'm interested ( mostly because I'm an Eldar fanboy ) is the nature of the Laughing God, because as of now he is the on;y one capable of saving those space elves.

 

[iain62a]

Also, I like to think that the Laughing God is just another face of Tzeench... and that Khain is another face of Khorne... Basically that the Chaos Gods really love to mess with the Eldar.

I like to think that the Eldar gods are in fact the last remaining old ones.

I think there's only two fully alive Eldar Gods left; The Laughing God and Isha. Isha is being imprisoned by Nurgle though. Khaine is sort of still there, and there's a new one being made called Cegorath.

Just a thought

 

[The Blue Mongoose]

The Eye of Terror is a massive warp storm, the only races capable of traveling in it are the Tau and the Necrons, due to the fact that their ships do not use the warp to move, however the Tau aren't close enough to the eye and the Necrons don't care. It may be possible for the Eldar race, however their minds will be destroyed the moment they enter it.

What I'm interested ( mostly because I'm an Eldar fanboy ) is the nature of the Laughing God, because as of now he is the on;y one capable of saving those space elves.

Don't Chaos LIVE in the Eye of Terror!? They travelled there and met the Chaos Gods. It grows with their victories... Basically it's their 'hood.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

I wonder why the Imperial Guard always winds up losing despite the fact we have more tanks than other races have boots. It really is getting me down, although it seems GW will be recitifying this with the new guard codex, as we will finally be implemented as the only truly unstoppable force in the galaxy (barring the Nids, and even then, only just)

 

[The Blue Mongoose]

Thought of something else... The Black Templar abhor mutants, witches (psychers) etc... How do they navigate through the warp? They can't use Navigators (note the capital N), they're psychers and mutants (they have the Warp Eye on their heads...).

However, Black Templars do use non-combat psykers in other tasks that do not directly involve combat. These include Astropaths and Navigators.
Link [http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Templars#Doctrines_and_Codex_adherence]

As for Khaine. He is a aspect of Khorne. Although I do remember reading somewhere he was thought to be one of the Old Ones he is generally believed to be a warp creature. Whan Slaanesh was born it basically kicked the shit out of Khaine and was going to kill/consume him but Khorne stepped in and fought for him claiming him as his property.
I personally prefer old style chaos when Khorne was not just blood and death but involved all aspects of war including honour and fair combat. In that case Khaine really is just a more honourable (although not too much) aspect of Khorne. Perhaps a lesser god or just a greater daemon.
Link [http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Khaine]

I think I love you... And also, curse the new Black Templars Codex... I have an old one...

EDIT: Reason for love; I miss old Khorne too... I really do.

 

[ward.]

Their guns take you apart atom by atom and steal your soul, evil to the core.

I know this is just being pedantic, but necrons and the Ctan have no interest in souls.

The Eye of Terror is a massive warp storm, the only races capable of traveling in it are the Tau and the Necrons, due to the fact that their ships do not use the warp to move, however the Tau aren't close enough to the eye and the Necrons don't care. It may be possible for the Eldar race, however their minds will be destroyed the moment they enter it.

What I'm interested ( mostly because I'm an Eldar fanboy ) is the nature of the Laughing God, because as of now he is the on;y one capable of saving those space elves.

Chaos lives in the eye of terror, it's actually a hole filled with warp storms.

EDIT:
And who/where have the "enslavers" gone? The C'Tan anti-psyker things that finally managed to royally fuck up the Old Ones. What happened to them after that?

They're still around and are a species native to the warp, that can possess a psyker and open a portal that will let them bring in exactly 1 more enslaver.

The Ctan realised that sentient life might actually die out, so they went to sleep and planned to wake up when everything had blown over.

 

[Fire Daemon]

Your logic is in fact flawless, and were it not for the Canon this would be an awesome hypothesis.

Gah, cursed cannon(s)! I like the idea of death being the only savior of the galaxy though, he would be the last guy you'd expect.

 

[blackcherry]

I have not read the Codex Dark Angels, but

Can Cypher revive the emperor?

Does the codex state anything about cyphers motives?

Much like everything that is a mystery in 40K, you have to look through multiple codices through several editions to even pick up enough to make a workable theory, and even then some of the background will inevitably contradict itself.

For my sins, I will try and help you with this one. He was originally stated as being the number one target for the DA to capture amongst the fallen (number 001), and is suggested that he has been captured multiple times, only to mysteriously vanish in transit. Whether this is just his skills, or something more demonic, is never explained.

It is also implied that he was a high ranking DA, before the civil war that luthor plunged the chapter into during the Horus Heresy. His actual identity is never mentioned, but one assumes that the DA know.

One of the captured fallen, during torture, mentioned that he carries the remains of the dark angels primarchs sword, and that should he ever reforge it, something along the lines of the 'redemption of the DA' will occur, whatever that is. It was also mentioned that he knows some dark secret of the DA other than the civil war that players know about. This has led people to speculate that perhaps the part of the chapter that rebelled were actually loyal to the Imperium, whilst the current DA chapter, at least in its command, are actually chaos aligned and have been since the HH.

As recently as the Eye of Terror, it appears that the Cyphers' main goal is to get to the main dark angels battle barge and punish them for some reason, him asking Abaddon to leave him the 'ones from the dark tower' in return for his services during the campaign.

He also seems to have amazing oratory skills and ferments rebellion wherever he goes, rarely actually doing much and leaving before it occurs, but nevertheless, proving the spark needed somehow. For this reason, he use to be able to be used in both a CSM army and a IG army, until he was removed from any of the codexes after 3rd edition.

Oh, and he seems to have somehow become wildly traveled enough to fight a C'tan to a standstill. Rule of cool and everything.

That is everything I can remember about the guy. That I can write this much about a pretty small and insignificant part of the 40K verse speaks volumes, both about the writers and the fans of 40K.

Hope it helped in some way.

 

[090907]

He was the keeper of the legion's traditions. Tradition was that no-one would know his identity.
I believe that he and a large portion of the fallen hold true the "no religion" edict of the emperor and only a few turned to chaos worship. (the Emperor said himself that he is no deity)
Therefore the "loyalist" marines see him as a heretic, and he hopes that reforging and presenting the blade to the Emperor (remembering his disdain for religion) will absolve his "sins".

There was an idea in my head that he was Lion El'Johnson before the book Descent of Angels. seems like a cool idea, "Here is my sword sire, half of my legion rebelled and I am accountable. Do what you see fit."

 

[jamesworkshop]

I never saw Tyranids as being a weapon against the Necrons they avoid necron home worlds due to necrons destroying all bio matter on a planet thus tyranids pass them by because they contain no food.
If the old ones created any new races I would suggest Tau as being the more logical option sure warp powers are deadly to the C'tan but the rise of the chaos gods was due to the increased psychic abilitys of the Eldar and Humans which ultimatly destroyed their civilisation and the ensuing enslaver plague was set to wipe out all life causing the necrons to hibernate so the c'tan would have a continued food source.
Another Tau trait is unity which is excatly what needs to happen to combat the necrons since destroying the Tomb worlds is the only method of winning otherwise Necron will win through Attrition.

 

[Traun]

Also, I like to think that the Laughing God is just another face of Tzeench... and that Khain is another face of Khorne... Basically that the Chaos Gods really love to mess with the Eldar.

The Laughing God is much older then Tzeenech and so is Khain. No matter what they will always be different entities.

Chaos lives in the eye of terror, it's actually a hole filled with warp storms.

That's pretty much what I've said. The reason Chaos was left out was because there was no need to point out the obvious.

 

[blackcherry]

Okay a small thing that has been bugging the crap out of me that all this talk of Cypher made me remember. What the hell happened to Space Marines? They used to be like 10 foot tall and could live forever as long as nothing blew them apart. Now they are what? 7 foot and live around 200-250 years before they die of old age going by alot of the books I have been reading latly.

I would guess that perhaps its the backlash against the 'marines are super cool and kill everything' that prevails through all 40K background.

Though saying that, the new SM codex is so chock full of 'space marinez are teh bestist evar'(I apologise for that, but its the only way I can quite sum up the quality of writing), filtered in particular into Marnius Calgar, that perhaps it was just some writer preferences.

 

[opiwankenobi]

One of the captured fallen, during torture, mentioned that he carries the remains of the dark angels primarchs sword, and that should he ever reforge it, something along the lines of the 'redemption of the DA' will occur, whatever that is. It was also mentioned that he knows some dark secret of the DA other than the civil war that players know about. This has led people to speculate that perhaps the part of the chapter that rebelled were actually loyal to the Imperium, whilst the current DA chapter, at least in its command, are actually chaos aligned and have been since the HH.

Hope it helped in some way.

I knew the part with the lions blade. But the part about the Dark Angels leader may be allied to chaos is interessting. I should read the codex one day. I only have the Blood Angels and Core Rulebook and that was from 3th edition.

But thanks for the info!

 

[The Blue Mongoose]

The Laughing God is much older then Tzeenech and so is Khain. No matter what they will always be different entities.

I thought Tzeench was the Warp God of Time and Fate. If one is a God of time does that not mean that he is eternal? Also, i thought Khorne was born the moment one being fought with another... Basically he's existed as long as there has been life.

Where did the Laughing God and Khaine come from? (I know little to nothing of the Eldar)

 

[ThreeWords]

In my opinion the Tyranids are not creatures designed to be the last great Bio-weapon against the Necrons but rather the other way around. I've always thought of the Tyranids as a race sprawling across the universe and devouring any galaxies they come across. They may leave a galaxy and then return to it some time later when life forms have had a chance to come back but generally they just eat everything they can. How much of the universe they have devoured is unknown but I like to assume that it's a lot of it and if they have devoured a lot of the Universe you would expect them to have been alive for a very long time. The only other race that has been 'alive' for possibly the same time is the Necrons. The Necrons are also metallic so therefore the Tyranids cannot eat them in the same way they eat a space marine. Isn't it also an interesting coincidence that the Necrons inhabit a galaxy that has yet to have been destroyed by the Tyranids but both turned up at roughly the same time? So we have two species that are both very old, one is designed with a slight advantage over the other and that galaxy one of them inhabits has not yet been destroyed by something that destroys everything? I think that the Necrons were created as a counter measure to the Tyrandis, as the saviors of the galaxy, against the great destroyers.

How they do this, I don't really know. Maybe by killing all life in the Galaxy the Necrons stop the Tyranids from even turning up?

some kind of scorched eath stratergy, perhaps?

 

[MCGT]

Isn't there a theory that the 'Nids have been kicked out of their galaxy by the two lost primarchs and their legions. A bit unbelievable but would be awsome if true.

 

[The Medic Who Ubered The World]

I (as a warhammer 40k fluff newb) got some questions, not really myths but maybe you have answers.

1) Chaos Space Marines. They have been around for 10.000 years now. I guess the cannot die from old age but 10.000 years of fighting must have taken some toll in their numbers and their equipment. Shouldn't the traitor legions run out of soldiers or equipment like power armour and fancy bolters?(well they still got lots of corrupted cultists and daemons then)
Are the most powerful chaos space marines bound to the warp to be reborn everytime they die? Do they have new Home Worlds on Daemon Worlds where they breed new initiates from the corrupted population? Or is there a constant stream of reinforcements from newly corrupteed space marines?

2)Will there be some kind of 'Age Of Armageddon', a playable end of the warhammer 40k universe like it was in white wolf's vampire:the masquerade universe?
And how long will it be till then?. With the Necrons awakening, the Tyranids main fleet approaching( I really love the idea that the Nids are running from something) and the golden throne failing it can't be very long.

to the discussion concerning the amount of the known universe eaten by the nids:
maybe someone knows this from an old nid codex: did the Nids have to adapt to this galaxy's way of warfare (with all the squishy humanoids in armour shooting plasma, lasers, rockets and Grots at each other and the tanks/Battleships, etc)? If they needed some time to adapt to this this could mean that they did not face such weapons before what means they haven't met many different forms of life before the entered the galaxy and have not omnomnom-ed their way through the universe( or most of the universe life forms are on a level with moss or happy pacifists).