The War of 1812: What really happened?

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

My main problem with this thread is all the people throwing historical inaccuracies about. First off, Canada as a country didn't even exist in 1812, much less play a direct role in the war.

Yes. When I said Canada, I meant the colony of Canada, not the country.

You weren't the only one saying it. In any event, i meant to try to clarify a few things.

 

[Anarchemitis]

Oh the Joys of Canada-USA debating.

 

[werepossum]

you do realize that canada has one of the best trained armies and was also one of the best performing armies in both ww1 and ww2 right?

there were several places that NO ONE could take or hold, well that is until the canadians came around.

yes up in canada we're a bunch of laid back party hardy beer drinkers but you mess with us or our army and you'll be getting your teeth shoved back down your throat. i mean come on we got a unit called the princess pat's light infantry, the first words i hear when i mention that unit is "those guys are crazy"

yes we don't police the world, we also don't pick sides when we enter into a conflict zone to peace keep. we go in and stop both sides

Canada did indeed have an excellent military in WW2, although I'd say "one of the best performing" is true only in that there were only a few Allied armies of significant size and impact. I know the Germans were highly impressed with them; several German accounts I've read refer to those "tall Canadians". But remember that Canadians used American tanks and American trucks and rode in American or British ships. (The exception being the early years; after screwing the pooch at Dieppe, Canada veered away from British equipment.) The Canadian Army fought well; it didn't fight alone, but fought as part of the British forces.

The Canadian Army was highly respected in WW1 as well, as was the Australian Army, as was the US Army. Mostly it was due to all three nations entering late, when soldiers of the original combatants had been fighting for years.

Today Canada has a well-trained army, true - but it's tiny. Cut-backs in Canadian armed forces have reduced its role from guaranteeing Canadian freedom to low-intensity and peace-keeping missions, and even then how many NATO combat missions has Canada carried out within the last decade without US or British assistance? Canada isn't even rated second among New World nations - it's third, behind Brazil. Part of the reason Canada has been able to so draw down its armed forces has been its good relations with other nations - but a huge part is knowing that the USA is just south and will run to their aid if threatened. Canada has, what, roughly one division of land forces?

So don't get too cocky. Canada walks softly, but the USA carries the big stick for you.

CanadianWolverine - Clinton was impeached for perjury and suborning perjury, both felonies. He was ultimately acquitted because while the US constitution provides for impeachment for "high crimes and misdemeanors", conviction and punishment for impeachment remain political decisions, and in the courts he copped a plea. Bush has to date not committed any "high crimes and misdemeanors". (Though what that has to do with the War of 1812, I've no clue.)

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Seriously! You guys had a Prime Minister that joked around about smoking WEED after it was reduced to simply a fineable offense: *that* is the kind of thing Canadians should be giving American a hard time about.

actually no we were going to do that but the american government said they would hassle all canadians going across the border because pot use would be "rampant" and that terrorists grew and sold pot so that makes it evil

well after the rampant part i kinda made it up but they us gov did whine and complain about us wanting to decriminalize pot, i do believe it's still legal to carry up to an ounce on your person because there's no laws on the books because of the americans complaining about decriminalizing it

decriminalizing means you would get a fine instead of jail time for small amounts of pot, up to an ounce i do believe. funnily enough this has support in the states from prison guards

The Canadian Army was highly respected in WW1 as well, as was the Australian Army, as was the US Army. Mostly it was due to all three nations entering late, when soldiers of the original combatants had been fighting for years.

ummm no canada and austrailia entered ww1 at the same time, both were asked by great britain to join in and by asked i mean they were told you're fighting. in ww2 canada was the first country to declare war on germany based on time zone, and austrailia entered right at the beginning too. so i'm not sure where you got that idea about those 2 countries entering late into the war

the americans in both cases stayed "neutral" until provoked too much, and by neutral i mean supplying weapons and guns to which ever side they wanted to win, ie the allies, they were far from neutral and cried when they got attacked for supplying the allies by german and japanese forces.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Ah, Americans and the second world war.... firstly, you have us believe that you did all the work..... then we point out that that honour goes to mother russia.

The you try and make us believe that the war was fought with all your kit- then we point out-

The fact the 'enormous sacrifice' on Omaha beach, horrific as it was, was mainly the fault of your navy.

The churchill (a tank which saved a lot of infantrymen in Normandy)

The Cromwell (a better tank by far than the Sherman)

The fact you never built an effective- anti Panther/Tiger tank destroyer until the M26 in 1945.

The fact the A34 Comet was a better tank than the Pershing.

The fact the P51 Mustang was an aircraft built to RAF specification in America- translation- not an American aircraft.

The fact you never bothered to armour the flight decks of your carriers, thus causing massive casualties amongst your men.

The fact you never created a light machine gun.

The fact that your army went gallivanting around the picturesque, lightly defended southern part of France and Germany (read- where there was and is nothing of significant value) and seemed to believe that the fighting was that easy everywhere and complained because the Commonwealth and some of your own divisions under Montgmery (who had his flaws, yes, but at least he didn't want to fight a war with the Red mother-fucking Army!) were basically trying to make headway through several tons of lead per ten yards.

And to all those who are offended, I apologise. To all those who think I am incorrect- post in a rational, measured response and I will respond in kind. Flame me and I will return the favour, with interest.

 

[Evil Lawyer]

Ah, Americans and the second world war.... firstly, you have us believe that you did all the work..... then we point out that that honour goes to mother russia.

The you try and make us believe that the war was fought with all your kit- then we point out-

The fact the 'enormous sacrifice' on Omaha beach, horrific as it was, was mainly the fault of your navy.

The churchill (a tank which saved a lot of infantrymen in Normandy)

The Cromwell (a better tank by far than the Sherman)

The fact you never built an effective- anti Panther/Tiger tank destroyer until the M26 in 1945.

The fact the A34 Comet was a better tank than the Pershing.

The fact the P51 Mustang was an aircraft built to RAF specification in America- translation- not an American aircraft.

The fact you never bothered to armour the flight decks of your carriers, thus causing massive casualties amongst your men.

The fact you never created a light machine gun.

The fact that your army went gallivanting around the picturesque, lightly defended southern part of France and Germany (read- where there was and is nothing of significant value) and seemed to believe that the fighting was that easy everywhere and complained because the Commonwealth and some of your own divisions under Montgmery (who had his flaws, yes, but at least he didn't want to fight a war with the Red mother-fucking Army!) were basically trying to make headway through several tons of lead per ten yards.

And to all those who are offended, I apologise. To all those who think I am incorrect- post in a rational, measured response and I will respond in kind. Flame me and I will return the favour, with interest.

Don't forget the fact that we (as in the English) had to suffer through nightly bombing raids and hold off the Nazis BY OURSELVES for several months before Hitler got greedy/stupid and invaded Russia. Yes, the Americans sent us weapons and ammo as aid (much of it from WW1 mind you), but troops would have been nice too. Yes, Japan attacked them (although it was not the mainland and Hawaii wasn't even a state then) and it was a terrible loss of life. But the U.S. mainland was never threatened directly and the war was never brought home to the States like it was to us on a regular basis.

 

[A Username Not In Use]

Ah, Americans and the second world war.... firstly, you have us believe that you did all the work..... then we point out that that honour goes to mother russia.

The you try and make us believe that the war was fought with all your kit- then we point out-

The fact the 'enormous sacrifice' on Omaha beach, horrific as it was, was mainly the fault of your navy.

The churchill (a tank which saved a lot of infantrymen in Normandy)

The Cromwell (a better tank by far than the Sherman)

The fact you never built an effective- anti Panther/Tiger tank destroyer until the M26 in 1945.

The fact the A34 Comet was a better tank than the Pershing.

The fact the P51 Mustang was an aircraft built to RAF specification in America- translation- not an American aircraft.

The fact you never bothered to armour the flight decks of your carriers, thus causing massive casualties amongst your men.

The fact you never created a light machine gun.

The fact that your army went gallivanting around the picturesque, lightly defended southern part of France and Germany (read- where there was and is nothing of significant value) and seemed to believe that the fighting was that easy everywhere and complained because the Commonwealth and some of your own divisions under Montgmery (who had his flaws, yes, but at least he didn't want to fight a war with the Red mother-fucking Army!) were basically trying to make headway through several tons of lead per ten yards.

And to all those who are offended, I apologise. To all those who think I am incorrect- post in a rational, measured response and I will respond in kind. Flame me and I will return the favour, with interest.

Corrction on Bloody Omaha it was the Navy that helped the break thru when a pair of destroyers came in close to the beach and brough their guns on the German defences, rather late in the day I should add. The primery reason for so many casulties was that the DD varient of the Sherman tanks that were designated for Omaha, only one made it ahsore, the others all sank. This meant the defences were not broken as quickly as they were on Gold, Juno, Sword and Utah, and a lot of good men died.

As for the poor armour on American Carriers, you do have to question which one of melords at the Admiralty thourght at it was a wish move to send a 20 year old battlecruiser in dire need of a refit and upgrading against the most advanced battleship in the world. For those no in the know a battlecruiser is like a battleship but with better engines and fuck all armour.

 

[CanadianWolverine]

...

Apparently the War of 1812 has something to do with WW2?

My own apologies for bringing up current day events earlier, I was trying to have some common ground with my family, friends, and neighbors to the south about an unpopular president, I just think its silly for US citizens to give Canadian citizens a hard time and visa versa.

The War of 1812 has been pretty much gone over in detail already so it seems like this has turned into some sort of us vs them crap thread. Please.

 

[Anton P. Nym]

I still say that Canada won the War of 1812. We got Laura Secord chocolates [http://www.laurasecord.ca/] out of it; the US had to settle for Dolly Madisons [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_Madison].

-- Steve

 

[SilentHunter7]

Ok, taking this in segments...

First and most importantly, War Monger of Yabucua has definitely shown his colors as a troll and could someone please put him back under his bridge. Nobody else is taking this to a personal level and as close to a flamewar this is, everyone else IS keeping it fairly damned civilized or tongue-and-cheek.

About my ripping on America... I do it against three groups of people. The politicians and government for sure, most of my hatred flows their way. Strongly patriotic Americans get some of my bile, and the third group are the American Corporations. I don't hold a grudge against Joe Average American unless he's part of the system, corporate whore, or one of those flag-waving "America is better than the world" zealots.

Re: NAFTA. This is the single largest fuckover Canada has ever endured. It really boiled down to the US declaring itself exempt from X Y and Z any time it held the short straw, and rigorous enforcement of the rules of the agreement when it worked in their favor. NAFTA needs to be abolished and remade in a fair, equitable manner. Until this happens I fully support cutting any and all trade with the USA.

Cheeze_Pavilion...
Ok. Canadians do not have an inferiority complex but we do have to at times point out we ARE Canadian so we don't get mistaken for Americans. This is very common when vacationing, unless we point out that we're Canadians, foreigners assume we are American and thus treat us poorly.

As to us figuring into geopolitical issues. We have our hands in most everything, but when it comes to martial matters we act through the UN rather than send our own troops directly (unlike a certain nation thinking it's the world police).

As to our relations "going sour". We aren't going to protest in the street with burning effigies of Uncle Sam, we are more constructive than that. We're going to stop selling our surplus electricity from Alta/BC and let the northern USA deal with their power shortages. Hell, you guys haven't even been paying us as per the agreement, if I were in charge the power would have been cut LONG ago. With the lumber market as bad as it is now, we'll probably cut off that supply too. China and Japan already make better trade partners for lumber, cutting off dealings with the US market will only improve our standings there. It's like the beef problem, we don't sell Canadian beef to the US anymore (well, less than 2% of what we used to), and we survived and indeed are better for it.

Would it shock you that the american people think the same way about you on NAFTA? IMO, it's the worst thing that could've ever happened.

 

[tthor]

i think the reason no one messes with canada is that canada is just so nice to every nation it meets and is friends with every1, so if any1 ever did mess with canada, over half of the worlds major military powers would step up kick their ass,

plus the fact that since nearly every nation is friends with canada, no1 feels like picking a fight with their friend

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Would it shock you that the american people think the same way about you on NAFTA? IMO, it's the worst thing that could've ever happened.

actually that wasn't until recently, when nafta was going their way they were fine with it, now they've lost a few court cases over their practices and are complaining about it