The White Male

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Bob_McMillan

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I know that everyone says they're sick of white male protagonists, but honestly I think you guys really just mean Americans. I mean, people from Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Canada, Russia, or where ever you can find people with melanin deficiency are hardly well represented in mass media. They're either the bad guys or stereotypes.

And if you don't mean Americans, then isn't having a problem with the color of someone's skin kind of, I don't know, racist?
 

Vault101

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oh god can we NOT? can we not poke this dead horse and spill its rancid guts everywhere?

[sub/]eh..anyway[/sub]

when I say it I don't JUST mean Americans, variety in that regard IS good, I LIKE other nationalties, so yeah sticking Americans needlessly into settings when a "local" would have sufficed would have been fine

but its still a very similar thing regardless of a funny accent, and given context more variety blah blah blah yall get the idea
 

PsychicTaco115

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All I know was that this kinda thing was played for laughs to sell a car


Maybe mass media DOES have a point

I dunno tho
 

Erttheking

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Nope. A Canadian Heterosexual white male is just as safe and boring as an American one. ...In fact...

http://cdn1-www.superherohype.com/assets/uploads/2013/11/xmenorigins-wolverine.jpg

Yup, just as boring

Nothing wrong with the archetype inherently , but let's not pretend it isn't a massive safe zone that gets treated as default for arbitrary reasons.
 

Zontar

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This is a pretty dead horse, but weather one looks at the white male protagonist as being white or specifically white American there's always something people need to remember: when it comes to criticising works, they're basically the only ones Americans can use who have flaws. Having a character who is a protagonist with flaws who is a woman or a visible minority and you're bound to get a massive ammount of flak from a specific group of people, which I won't name names but you all know who I'm talking about. I say this not as a prediction but as a statement of history, namely the past 15 years of movies and video games (for some reason television seems to get a free pass on having flawed female or minority characters).

People can complain about the lack of diversity all they want, but as it stands there's an incentive amongst both movie makers and video game makers to do no such thing at the hands of many of these same people. One need only look at the pre-release reaction to the Tomb Raider reboot to see this at its most visible.

It's what I call the diversity paradox: many of the people who cry out the most for more diversity are also the ones who are single-handedly doing more to prevent it from happening.
 

Erttheking

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Zontar said:
erttheking said:
I hope you're calling Wolverine boring as a joke.
Well, he's boring in the sense that he's been done over and over and over again at the expense of everyone else. He's boring in the sense that he keeps doing the same thing. I like Wolverine, but for fuck's sake, it's X-men, not Wolverine and some other guys!
 

Zontar

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erttheking said:
Zontar said:
erttheking said:
I hope you're calling Wolverine boring as a joke.
Well, he's boring in the sense that he's been done over and over and over again at the expense of everyone else. He's boring in the sense that he keeps doing the same thing. I like Wolverine, but for fuck's sake, it's X-men, not Wolverine and some other guys!
I'd actually argue that, in the past 20 years, that's actually an accurate representation of pretty much any X-men team he's been on.
 

Erttheking

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Zontar said:
erttheking said:
Zontar said:
erttheking said:
I hope you're calling Wolverine boring as a joke.
Well, he's boring in the sense that he's been done over and over and over again at the expense of everyone else. He's boring in the sense that he keeps doing the same thing. I like Wolverine, but for fuck's sake, it's X-men, not Wolverine and some other guys!
I'd actually argue that, in the past 20 years, that's actually an accurate representation of pretty much any X-men team he's been on.
I know. That's what I'm so frustrated about.
 

Eddie the head

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I would support less white male protagonists so people would quit talking about it at this point. But really it's just a trope, and when tropes are used in mass people start noticing faults in them. But a trope is a trope it's not good or bad.
 

EternallyBored

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Zontar said:
erttheking said:
Zontar said:
erttheking said:
I hope you're calling Wolverine boring as a joke.
Well, he's boring in the sense that he's been done over and over and over again at the expense of everyone else. He's boring in the sense that he keeps doing the same thing. I like Wolverine, but for fuck's sake, it's X-men, not Wolverine and some other guys!
I'd actually argue that, in the past 20 years, that's actually an accurate representation of pretty much any X-men team he's been on.
As Er already said, that's kind of the problem, he's a popularity blackhole that steals the spotlight from the other X-men, no other X-man even gets close to the level of exposure (over-exposure) that Wolverine gets.

That's a common criticism against the x-men, that Wolverine tends to pop up way too often, it was a running joke in the late 90's to mid 2000's were he was on multiple teams at the same time, to the point that he would need to borrow Nightcrawler to get his ass to all the events he was supposedly a part of. Marvel has killed him off in the comics recently, but even they acknowledge he'll be back and Fox is picking up the slack by sticking him in all the movies.

For people that like the other X-men, it can get kind of annoying that up until Marvel got picked up by Disney and started focusing more on the movies and Avengers, Wolverine was kind of shoved into a lot of story lines, even story lines separate from the X-Men, for a good 15-20 years pretty much every marvel character and team can guarantee that they would team up with Wolverine for at least one storyline, no matter how much they have to stretch the premise to make it happen.
 

EternallyBored

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Eddie the head said:
I would support less white male protagonists so people would quit talking about it at this point. But really it's just a trope, and when tropes are used in mass people start noticing faults in them. But a trope is a trope it's not good or bad.
That's the crux of it I think, apart from a small group that actually views White males as bad, the criticism against the prevalence of White people isn't at all saying that White characters are inherently bad, just that they are an overused trope that some people want to see used less often.

It's a trope that is often fine, I don't think most people making this complaint seriously want to see a Victorian era drama in London include a majority Japanese cast, but in a lot of properties we see it become sort of the standard to just make everyone White, even when there's either no reason for it, or a realistic setting where there should be more diversity. There is also a general criticism against the overuse of tropes in general, kind of along the same line of so much of fantasy aping Tolkien; it kind of homogenizes a lot of fantasy into a generic mish-mash of Western European creatures and settings.

Really, I think a lot of it stems from just frustration with the same overused plots, settings, and characters cropping up again and again, with the instant access to media the internet gives us, it becomes increasingly easier to see the patterns in media. Not all the criticism against these tropes is fair, or even all that good, but I can see where a lot of it comes from, and even agree with a lot of it.
 

chuckman1

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Yeah it would be nice to see some more European protagonists, but you guys are gonna have to make those games yourself. Other than random guys like me who would like a multi sided ww2 fps/rpg most americans don't give a damn about any non americans.

We do need more non white protagonists though, always the dark haired white guy with glasses (or without glasses if they're not Gordon Freeman nerd), I am a dark haired white guy with glasses but let me play as a mexican lesbian for once.

Also I feel European life is pretty similar to American life minus the 10 gallon hats, cowboys, and drive bys that are all everyday things in my BEST COUNTRY EVER. I would like to see more Asian and African (not just American) protagonists. It was cool being a Chinese dude in sleeping dogs but he's still Chinese American. Where's my protagonists from the Congo? Where's my "Overthrow Robert Mugabe ruler of Zimmbabwe" game?

tldr, white americans dominate the games landscape and it's boring, europeans are gonna have to write yourselves in, but I want more Asians and Africans. Also how about LATIN AMERICANS. Where's my Brazilian GTA?
 

Recusant

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Those gosh darned Americans! They make American movies, for a primarily American audience, and they have the audacity to cast Americans! And take them from the racial group that makes up two-thirds of the population! It's almost as though movie studios felt that exposing people to unfamiliar people and situations and alienate them, putting a commercial project that cost tens of millions of dollars at risk. How abominable of them. Marketing is marketing, folks.

In a broader sense, however, I think we might be making a big, big mistake here, especially when I read comments like this:
erttheking said:
Nope. A Canadian Heterosexual white male is just as safe and boring as an American one. ...In fact...

Yup, just as boring

Nothing wrong with the archetype inherently , but let's not pretend it isn't a massive safe zone that gets treated as default for arbitrary reasons.
Supposedly, white guys are responsible for war, pollution, slavery, economic inequality, social injustice, global instability, the "oppression" of every other racial and social group out there, and they STILL qualify as "safe and boring"? What do they have to do to impress you people? More to the point, what is it you're egging them on to try to get them to DO!?
 

Therumancer

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Bob_McMillan said:
I know that everyone says they're sick of white male protagonists, but honestly I think you guys really just mean Americans. I mean, people from Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Canada, Russia, or where ever you can find people with melanin deficiency are hardly well represented in mass media. They're either the bad guys or stereotypes.

And if you don't mean Americans, then isn't having a problem with the color of someone's skin kind of, I don't know, racist?
Well it is racist, and that's part of why people like me, and a lot of the right wing, have been calling out liberals on their BS for a long time now.

As far as American focus, sort of like the actual number of "minorities"/women/etc.. out there you'd be surprised at how many non-American whites make their way into popular culture. I hate to be a broken record but it mostly tends to be the 'liberal' crowd that identifies there being a problem even when there isn't one, because that allows for crusading and demands for change. To put things into perspective the US has run multiple versions of "Sherlock Holmes" over the years some imported, some made here, the last Nikita series they ran involved an Asian-American girl and a Russian girl (Russian native/corporate heiress) as the two main characters, the "Buffyverse" had two british characters neither of whom were stereotypical even though Giles played the role (the whole gimmick was that while he acted the role of a librarian he was actually a John Constantine type with a similar background) which of course brings us to the fact that John Constantine has had a TV show and a movie, with Hercules and Xena the characters were all supposed to be Greek (and Anthony Quinn played Zeus), the TV show "Vikings" is pretty popular and they are all you know... Vikings, the TV show Merlin had various types of Europeans running around fantasy Europe. The entire cast of Harry Potter which is hugely multimedia is non-American. When you start getting into actors that aren't white Americans there are plenty of Canadians, Australians, Brits, etc... that get roles even if they are playing Americans at times. Now granted in the American media created by Americans of course most of the characters are Americans, but honestly I think we're probably the most diverse media creators on the planet, I do not see many positive American portrayals (or Americans at all) in BBC productions for example, and when it comes to things made by Japan, China, and India their media, particularly live action media, tends to be as aggressively and racistly mono-ethnic as their cultures are. As a general rule only Americans seem to really give a crap about diversity in this way, and mostly it seems to be liberals convinced this is somehow a big deal, which I suspect is mostly to keep them occupied while the leaders they follow work on other things. When I look beyond America I have a hard time taking anyone seriously that seems to think America has a problem with diversity, or tolerance, sure we're not some kind of utopia, but despite what some try and claim no one else comes close. Indeed instead of worrying about not being diverse enough we should be looking with concern at both China and India both of whom are incredibly racist and intentionally mono-ethnic, and each represents rougly one third of the global population, "whites" share the remaining third with everyone else including blacks, latinos, arabs, etc... instead of listening to the people starting race wars here and talking about our horrible intolerance and how we need more diverse media, we should be kind of concerned about these rising economic and military powers who don't give any crap about diversity at all, and I mean that in general, not just in regards to the media.

On the subject I find it kind of disturbing that Americans like to stereotype ourselves as being bigoted and unaccepting when really we're the most tolerant and welcoming people on the planet. I for one cannot understand how someone can sit down and talk about say our lack of diversity in media with a straight face, it's like nobody has any memory at all or pays attention, nor does anyone pay any attention to what other countries are doing or how it compares. The fact that someone right now is probably laughing at how wrong it is to say this and perhaps even preparing to say so is part of my point. Odds are your probably wrong in whatever you think, much like the comment about the lack of non-American whites, or lack of minorities, or whatever else in American media. Yeah okay, white Americans being the majority here do represent the majority in our media, but at the same time I think we represent minorities and other groups better, and more frequently, than other media producing countries. Indeed we take stories from all around the world, not just our own stuff, and work with it. For example while JK Rowling was a British author, a lot of the blockbuster success of Harry Potter came from US interests picking it up apparently. The books were wildly successful on their own, but the movies brought even more people on board, and of course we're the ones who saw the amusement park (well section of one) built that caused Universal to actually start breathing down the neck of the Disney juggernaut again (and apparently a version in California is under construction as I type this). So basically us bigoted Americans who hate Europeans build amusement parks so we can pretend we're in British-created IPs.... Not to mention being the ones who sort of turned James Bond into a global cinematic phenomena (which was done at a time well before the international movie audience played much of a role at all).

I also admit that it sort of confuses me how the stereotype about always casting the British as bad guys got started when it seems to me that the most well known (in America) British characters are all heroes, and of course a lot of the obviously British actors are known for playing heroes. For example an entire generation grew up with Giles acting as a mentor for Buffy The Vampire slayer, and he wasn't a stereotype so much as a subversion of one, he was fairly unique in the way he combined two different "takes" on the dabbling magician thing and frequently made it clear how he really wasn't the out of touch librarian he pretended to be even to his comrades a lot of the time. James Bond is a phenomena. Sean Connery is known for playing heroes, and not just Bond. Patrick Stewart shows up in things mostly as heroes being most famous as Captain Picard (a british actor playing a person of French lineage) and of course Professor X. If anything it seems brits in particular get stereotyped more as upper class scholor types than anything, though you are beginning to see more lower class british tough guys showing up due to guys like Jason Statham popularizing the schtick, and there is another guy who is a well known British actor who plays British heroes in American movies. Then of course who could forget Jean-Claude "The Muscles From Brussels" Van Damme, who while not as popular as he once was, was a huge deal for a long time, having had a very prolific action movie career. Many of his characters were also not American either, he seemed to like to define his guys as having a Foreign Legion background and things like that (in "Lionheart" his character went Awol from the Legion if I remember).

Now to be honest one thing I've always kind of wondered about is whether Lexx or Farscape got griped at in the countries they were made (Canada for Lexx, Australia for Farscape) for a lack of minority characters. Both went on multiple seasons and I've always kind of thought that if they did more of their production in the US there would have been a borderline Jihad to have a multi-seasonal mostly mono-ethnic science fiction show, yet unlike others I never heard of either of them generating any real controversy. I mostly wonder because of the whole "Martha Jones" thing in Doctor Who which got all kinds of attention apparently for having someone of color in the show even if she didn't last long, which if I heard correctly was the result of unusual amounts of criticism for a British made sci-fi show since diversity or the lack of it rarely comes up.
 

Therumancer

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Recusant said:
Those gosh darned Americans! They make American movies, for a primarily American audience, and they have the audacity to cast Americans! And take them from the racial group that makes up two-thirds of the population! It's almost as though movie studios felt that exposing people to unfamiliar people and situations and alienate them, putting a commercial project that cost tens of millions of dollars at risk. How abominable of them. Marketing is marketing, folks.

In a broader sense, however, I think we might be making a big, big mistake here, especially when I read comments like this:
erttheking said:
Nope. A Canadian Heterosexual white male is just as safe and boring as an American one. ...In fact...

Yup, just as boring

Nothing wrong with the archetype inherently , but let's not pretend it isn't a massive safe zone that gets treated as default for arbitrary reasons.
Supposedly, white guys are responsible for war, pollution, slavery, economic inequality, social injustice, global instability, the "oppression" of every other racial and social group out there, and they STILL qualify as "safe and boring"? What do they have to do to impress you people? More to the point, what is it you're egging them on to try to get them to DO!?
Overall it's the same crap every dominant empire has gotten magnified by information technology. All the people getting conquered and enslaved by the Egyptians, Persians, etc... probably had similar attitudes but didn't have the internet, and also didn't want to get the attention of people who would actually come over there and wreck their shit, unlike the white empires which mostly just sits around wringing it's hands.

One interesting social theory which holds a degree of weight is that what your actually seeing is widespread racism against whites due to the belief that we're inferior. See, through most of history whites were a group of barbarians that were pretty much the bitches of the entire world. Darker skinned peoples ran around and enslaved us, forced us to work, and killed us for lulz. Even the romans and greeks weren't really white, they were much darker skinned, however with the fall of Rome they were nearly extinguished and the survivors largely bred into the white skinned barbarians who dominated the area after their loss and build an empire from the ashes of theirs. Historically speaking it's a series of freak occurances that lead to the world we now know, and the general domination of white nations as opposed to various "people of color" running the world as they had for the majority of human history.

To be honest given the realities of how the world turned out whites have every reason to have a serious hate on for everyone else, and indeed we engaged in our fair share of conquering and slavery, but it's also interesting to note we more or less stopped doing this on our own, developing strong codes of morality and ethics that demonized such things. Whites only held slaves on any signifigant level for a few hundred years compared to the thousands we were preyed upon. There have been some theories dealing with genetic memories, memes, etc... saying that one of the reasons why whites decided these things were wrong is due to having been victims for so much of our existence. This is also why we tend to be relatively reluctant to victimize others. While we've had some incredibly bloody wars due to the advancement of technology the reign of "white empires" has actually been pretty peaceful and has seen unprecedented developments in science, technology, and society, eclipsing the achievements of even the greatest old empires in a fraction of the time, in part due to being far more open and growing from some of the ideals Rome had but was never able to achieve on it's own.

Globally speaking right now slavery, oppression of women, etc... are all issues through most of the world. They might call it other things, but if you look at Africa (including The Middle East) where there were many great empires that sprung up around the fertile crescent those things have always been there and never left. Both India and China both of whom represent about 1/3rd of humanity each have horrendous human rights records and despite pretensions to the contrary rampant sexual discrimination and institutions of slavery and servitude. The wife of the Indian ambassador was involved in a pretty big incident not too long ago when her relationship with her servant was revealed for example. The exception to this of course is mostly "white" countries, namely the British Empire and it's descendants (the US, Canada, Australia... yes Canada was British indeed the mounties had their classic uniforms due to a tradition of being the last remnant of The British Colonial Army... I learned some interesting things about them when I was in Canada). We're the ones with a big bug up our butts about acceptance, doing away with slavery, etc... when places like China are concerned with remaining as mono-ethnic and tightly controlled as possible for example.

The point I'm getting at here is that I've heard theories, again going back to memes, genetic memory, and things like that which imply a lot of the crap we deal with today is a form of butthurt over role reversal. Even if they can't put a finger on it, your dark skinned person feels unusually affronted for having been enslaved, even if it was for a brief period, by a group of people he instinctively feels should be his slave because until fairly recently it has been that way, whites were the prey and the slaves. Not to mention the fact that whites have also done more in a shorter period of time than pretty much anyone else. While whites argue about who did what, there is some resentment looking at everything from phones, to electricity, to airplanes that almost everything we have now came from some white dude. There are exceptions of course but that can burn for reasons people might not fully understand. Argueing who gets to claim Bell, or the merits of Edison Vs. Tesla is all a bunch of pasty white folks discussing which pasty white guy was the smartest of the smart guys.

How true any of that is, I have no idea, and I don't fully embrace it mind you, I just find a lot of it interesting as there is a lot of truth to parts of it. I mean face it, when some black people claim they were building empires when whites were still running around hiding in caves, they are pretty much telling the truth. Understand that and looking at who the dominant empires belong to, what they accomplished, and perhaps worst of all the fact that we're tolerant rather than oppressors, especially when you compare us to nations and regions of color, that sort of has to burn, and might very well contribute to why we get blamed for everything.

It should also be noted that as I've said before, whites are actually a pretty tiny minority globally speaking, and as a general rule we don't control much of anything exclusively due to how tolerant we are. I can't think of any militantly mono-ethnic white countries off the top of my head, almost all of them have reasonably large "minority" populations. None that go as far as say China and/or Japan do with their notions of national purity. I suppose that contributes as well since when people want to get racial we literally have everyone right there to scream in our ear, and we go out of the way to give them a platform. Unlike say Japan or China where minorities are VERY small proportionatly and have little or no say at all. Nobody in say Japan holds out a mass media soap box and actually invites them to be critical of the ethnic Japanese right there in their own country, at least not on a large scale. In the US at least we actually encourage it and are so tolerant despite criticisms that nobody fears any repercussions. It's not like some other places where if the opportunity was taken, the guy who said something would probably be dead in an alley within 48 hours even if some of the people offering the chance itself were themselves sincere.
 

Kanova

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The amount of TL;DR in this thread is unbearable. Anyway, yeah I am not tired of white straight guys. I would like to play as a German or a Russian or any other Caucasian. I don't particularly care for minority protagonists. If I can play as a white dude, I will always pick him over a black or asian one, and I would feel uncomfortable playing as a homo if his sexuality comes up during gameplay or cutscenes, like seeing him make out with his boyfriend or whatever. And I don't think I am alone on this, given that if there is a black character in an online game, you rarely ever see people playing that character. I just think some people get too worked up other this sort of thing and try to make a big deal out of it.
 

Thaluikhain

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Recusant said:
Those gosh darned Americans! They make American movies, for a primarily American audience, and they have the audacity to cast Americans! And take them from the racial group that makes up two-thirds of the population! It's almost as though movie studios felt that exposing people to unfamiliar people and situations and alienate them, putting a commercial project that cost tens of millions of dollars at risk. How abominable of them. Marketing is marketing, folks.
Exactly. Space marines fighting aliens? Perfectly relatable.

Black people? Gay people? People aren't going to get that.
 

rcs619

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Zontar said:
erttheking said:
I hope you're calling Wolverine boring as a joke.
Wolverine is literally the most boring of all the X-men. At least Cyclops' power is kind of cool, and can make things explode. All Wolverine can do is stab things really good and take a punch better than anyone else :p

On topic though, I'd say that it's more about... different perspectives than different races, that are necessarily needed. Like, if you're going to have a german, or slavic protagonist, and that sort of local culture, history and living circumstances are going to really affect the character and the story, his or her skin color isn't an issue. It's still something different than the norm.

If you just have a german space marine, or gruff, brown-haired everyman who has to take matters into his own hands and become Rambo... then you're really just putting a slightly different coat of paint on the same old story.

Although, type-casting amongst secondary characters is another issue that crops up a lot. Fantasy and sci-fi are traditionally pretty bad when it comes to this. They'll have all sorts of fantastical aliens and orcs and so on and so forth, but then have pretty much just white people representing the human element. With fantasy, you *can* kind of get away with this, since there wasn't necessarily a lot of racial intermingling outside of port cities, trade hubs or border zones before fast, reliable travel became a thing.

In sci-fi though, there's really not an excuse. Only around 16% (it's hard to find exact numbers) of world's population is white, and it isn't *only* going to be that tiny portion that get to space. More recent sci-fi has gotten better about 'white-people-in-space syndrome' (my pet-name for it, anyway), but it does still crop up a good bit. And I get it, sci-fi tends to, traditionally, be pretty white genre, and those people are writing and making movies about people they are familiar with. That's a natural thing with any creator, and in most cases it's subconscious. But that's also why we need to kind of be aware of it and keep a look out too.
 

Parasondox

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Therumancer said:
No way I am reading all of that. I am not in college.
I must ask, do you need to write an entire essay to explain your point or are you a writer and the instinct to do that is just there and natural to you? I have always wondered.