The White Man's Burden

[Seldon2639]

"Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--"

Before anyone accuses me of racism (a topic on my mind this evening, obviously), it's a quotation from the Kipling poem by the same name. Ignoring the racial implications, I'm beginning to feel like we're living through this.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm an America, and proud to be one. It's not xenophobia, or jingoism, just pride in living in a country which has done some spectacular things. With that in mind, here we go:

America can't win, and it bothers me. We're never allowed to be right. If we interfere in a foreign country (Iraq), and free their citizens from an evil dictator, we're imperialist dogs. If we fail to interfere in a foreign country (Sudan), we're amoral bastards. Pick a gear and stay in it a while. Either we're the world's police officers, and supposed to go in and stop injustice, or we aren't, but don't ask us to do both.

We fail to respect the culture and religion of the Middle East, and we're insensitive and arrogant. We fail to trample on that culture and religion, and we're complicit in its crimes. C'mon, that's just not fair. Either we're supposed to leave the Middle East alone, or we're supposed to step in to stop the marriage of an eight-year-old to a forty-year-old.

We're told we're selfish for not writing blank checks to the developing world, and then upbraided for "cultural imperialism".

I'm not asking people to support America uncritically, unquestioningly, but a little fairness would be nice. If we're supposed to be isolationist, we can do that. We can pull our ships and soldiers out of basically everywhere, and only care for our own defense, but I don't think many people want that. If we're supposed to be the moral authority and arm of the lord, we can do that, we're the only superpower left, but people don't seem to want that either.

 

[Nmil-ek]

Can i ask why your proud to be an American? Its little more than an accident of birth it dosent endeer anything special upon us just which lump of rock we had the fortune to land upon. Its cool to be happy your an American but i never got all this patriotism stuff flags and anthems do nothing for me.

 

[freakonaleash]

Your right. people want us around...but then they don't.

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

The people who oppose the US exerting it's influence for general benefit are either isolationists or people with power that stand to lose it. Or maybe they're just cynical.

People who welcome American efforts are most everyone else.

 

[newguy77]

Can i ask why your proud to be an American? Its little more than an accident of birth it dosent endeer anything special upon us just which lump of rock we had the fortune to land upon. Its cool to be happy your an American but i never got all this patriotism stuff flags and anthems do nothing for me.

Sorry about being off topic, but, your quote+your avatar=win.

 

[Aries_Split]

First of all, get your information correct.


We did not "free iraq from an evil dictator".

What we did was invade them so we could get closer to the oil in Iran. We did not overthrow a dictator, we absolutely demolished any iota of social and government stability for no good reason.

Sudan actually needed our help, and we chose to ignore them.

There should not be pride or shame involved in your nationality. Simply be proud to be a good person. "We" are not the nations police officers, we are a sizeable power and are expected to act responsibly.


Any more questions?

EDIT:what do you mean we can't "win"?

If winning means not being universally hated, of course we can win, it just takes some effort to dispel most of the rumors about us that tend to be true.

 

[Bhcf6693]

Can i ask why your proud to be an American? Its little more than an accident of birth it dosent endeer anything special upon us just which lump of rock we had the fortune to land upon. Its cool to be happy your an American but i never got all this patriotism stuff flags and anthems do nothing for me.

Seconded!

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

Can i ask why your proud to be an American? Its little more than an accident of birth it dosent endeer anything special upon us just which lump of rock we had the fortune to land upon. Its cool to be happy your an American but i never got all this patriotism stuff flags and anthems do nothing for me.

Flags and anthems are not patriotism, their ways to express it. Patriotism is the love of your country and the willingness to do something for it.

The importance of patriotism for a nation's long-term survival cannot be understated.

 

[DannyBoy451]

Can i ask why your proud to be an American? Its little more than an accident of birth it dosent endeer anything special upon us just which lump of rock we had the fortune to land upon. Its cool to be happy your an American but i never got all this patriotism stuff flags and anthems do nothing for me.

This, but with moar underlining.

 

[yeah_so_no]

The thing with Iraq, though, is we went in under false pretenses, and then preceded to make an utter hash of things because of piss-poor planning. We protected the oil fields while museums were looted; we sent people over to be in charge of rebuilding who knew nothing about Iraq or Middle Eastern culture but were loyal Republicans--some people who went over hadn't even had passports before they got the jobs. And to say nothing of Abu Graib and the national shame that is what we did in Guantanamo.

 

[Aries_Split]

Can i ask why your proud to be an American? Its little more than an accident of birth it dosent endeer anything special upon us just which lump of rock we had the fortune to land upon. Its cool to be happy your an American but i never got all this patriotism stuff flags and anthems do nothing for me.

Flags and anthems are not patriotism, their ways to express it. Patriotism is the love of your country and the willingness to do something for it.

The importance of patriotism for a nation's long-term survival cannot be understated.

But there is a line where patriotism becomes jingoism.

Usually about the time we tell people we are the greatest nation ever.

The thing with Iraq, though, is we went in under false pretenses, and then preceded to make an utter hash of things because of piss-poor planning. We protected the oil fields while museums were looted; we sent people over to be in charge of rebuilding who knew nothing about Iraq or Middle Eastern culture but were loyal Republicans--some people who went over hadn't even had passports before they got the jobs. And to say nothing of Abu Graib and the national shame that is what we did in Guantanamo.

very true.

 

[Mrsoupcup]

"Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--"

Before anyone accuses me of racism (a topic on my mind this evening, obviously), it's a quotation from the Kipling poem by the same name. Ignoring the racial implications, I'm beginning to feel like we're living through this.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm an America, and proud to be one. It's not xenophobia, or jingoism, just pride in living in a country which has done some spectacular things. With that in mind, here we go:

America can't win, and it bothers me. We're never allowed to be right. If we interfere in a foreign country (Iraq), and free their citizens from an evil dictator, we're imperialist dogs. If we fail to interfere in a foreign country (Sudan), we're amoral bastards. Pick a gear and stay in it a while. Either we're the world's police officers, and supposed to go in and stop injustice, or we aren't, but don't ask us to do both.

We fail to respect the culture and religion of the Middle East, and we're insensitive and arrogant. We fail to trample on that culture and religion, and we're complicit in its crimes. C'mon, that's just not fair. Either we're supposed to leave the Middle East alone, or we're supposed to step in to stop the marriage of an eight-year-old to a forty-year-old.

We're told we're selfish for not writing blank checks to the developing world, and then upbraided for "cultural imperialism".

I'm not asking people to support America uncritically, unquestioningly, but a little fairness would be nice. If we're supposed to be isolationist, we can do that. We can pull our ships and soldiers out of basically everywhere, and only care for our own defense, but I don't think many people want that. If we're supposed to be the moral authority and arm of the lord, we can do that, we're the only superpower left, but people don't seem to want that either.

America isn't a bad counrtry its just your own media cripples your goverments actions. No matter what the U.S. does its own media will find fault with it, weather they stop all the evils with the world or find and destroy a million nukes. So jurk will say they did somthing wrong for t.v. ratings.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

The people who oppose the US exerting it's influence for general benefit are either isolationists or people with power that stand to lose it. Or maybe they're just cynical.

People who welcome American efforts are most everyone else.

Realistically, I'd say that people who don't want the US to get involved simply don't trust them.
Pre-Obama, the worldwide image of America was a faceless Military-Industrialist Goon. And that's generally the fault of the American media, who are still portraying the same rampant "We are here to fix you because you're savages" that the Vikings did.

The American Military would be welcomed a lot more if they asked first, and didn't look upon it as their right to interfere.

As for the current wars, Iran was considered the threat in the 70's against their peaceful neighbour Iraq, Kuwait had been helped out by the English 50+ years ago...there's simply far more history to these wars rather than Jerk X is torturing Race Y.

 

[JRslinger]

First of all, get your information correct.


We did not "free iraq from an evil dictator".

What kind of mental process do you use to believe this?

What we did was invade them so we could get closer to the oil in Iran. We did not overthrow a dictator, we absolutely demolished any iota of social and government stability for no good reason.

Sudan actually needed our help, and we chose to ignore them.

There should not be pride or shame involved in your nationality. Simply be proud to be a good person. "We" are not the nations police officers, we are a sizeable power and are expected to act responsibly.

Any more questions?

If it were about oil we would have cut deals with Saddam and Iran. If we invaded Sudan we would be accused of doing it for their natural resources. The leftists would demand we withdraw even though it would make things worse. I agree with the OP

 

[steveo_justice]

First of all, get your information correct.


We did not "free iraq from an evil dictator".

What we did was invade them so we could get closer to the oil in Iran. We did not overthrow a dictator, we absolutely demolished any iota of social and government stability for no good reason.

Sudan actually needed our help, and we chose to ignore them.

There should not be pride or shame involved in your nationality. Simply be proud to be a good person. "We" are not the nations police officers, we are a sizeable power and are expected to act responsibly.


Any more questions?

EDIT:what do you mean we can't "win"?

If winning means not being universally hated, of course we can win, it just takes some effort to dispel most of the rumors about us that tend to be true.

Really, people need to shut the fuck up about us invading for oil. If that were the case, maybe we'd have started, you know, buying the oil? And drilling for oil? And any of that shit you need to do with oil before it goes in your car? Ever thought about that?

And yes, we did *liberate* an *opressed nation* from a *batshit crazy dictator.* There is now far more stability and democracy in Iraq than there has been in any Middle Eastern country in the history of Earth, save Israel. There may have been more order under Sadaam to an extent, but there were hundreds of people being assasinated by secret police every month to make it happen.

Now, last year, as a result of the Surge, there were Shiite and Sunni women voting in an open election more than one candidate. You were saying about having his facts straight?

 

[YuheJi]

I think it comes from all the messed up things that we did during the Cold War, things that people still remember. We put up harsh dictators simply because they were on our side. We overthrew Iran's first democratically elected prime minister because he wanted to start taking control of his country's oil to be used for its people. We overthrew a Guatemalan democratically elected official because he wanted to kick out U.S. businesses that bought land but didn't use it (in order to have a monopoly). And in Iraq, we pushed a warlord named Saddam Hussein into power because he was thought to be anti-communist. And I haven't even mentioned what we did in Vietnam (support a corrupt, oppressive dictator and bomb a neutral Cambodia that led to the downfall of its government and a genocide by the people that came into power in Cambodia). So obviously anything America does on an international level is going to be looked at with skepticism.
Other countries are also probably upset with our excuses for the invasion of Iraq. They have WMDs? They don't? We gave them WMDs? We're fighting to get rid of Saddam Hussein? Why does that reason pop up last? And the Middle East has lots of oil?
I think we are seen as self-righteous, claiming that we represent freedom and equality, and all those other great things. We really do not. Now there's nothing wrong with not being the embodiment of everything good, but doing bad things and claiming that they're for good is obviously going to be looked down upon. And it's not like America hasn't done good things. We also definitely would not be able to hold down war-torn countries like Darfur or Somalia. It's just the fact that we claim to be helping so often, that people wonder why we don't help those nations that clearly need it.

 

[Aries_Split]

First of all, get your information correct.


We did not "free iraq from an evil dictator".

What we did was invade them so we could get closer to the oil in Iran. We did not overthrow a dictator, we absolutely demolished any iota of social and government stability for no good reason.

Sudan actually needed our help, and we chose to ignore them.

There should not be pride or shame involved in your nationality. Simply be proud to be a good person. "We" are not the nations police officers, we are a sizeable power and are expected to act responsibly.


Any more questions?

EDIT:what do you mean we can't "win"?

If winning means not being universally hated, of course we can win, it just takes some effort to dispel most of the rumors about us that tend to be true.

Really, people need to shut the fuck up about us invading for oil. If that were the case, maybe we'd have started, you know, buying the oil? And drilling for oil? And any of that shit you need to do with oil before it goes in your car? Ever thought about that?

And yes, we did *liberate* an *opressed nation* from a *batshit crazy dictator.* There is now far more stability and democracy in Iraq than there has been in any Middle Eastern country in the history of Earth, save Israel. There may have been more order under Sadaam to an extent, but there were hundreds of people being assasinated by secret police to make it happen.

Now, last year, as a result of the Surge, there were Shiite and Sunni women voting in an open election more than one candidate. You were saying about having his facts straight?

You're joking right? Having a larger democratic population voting is no proof of stability. Where the hell are you getting stability from? Killing a batshit crazy man who was holding together a country is not stabilizing it.

We invaded iraq so we would be in a better position to invade iran.

We invaded under the pretense that WMD were there.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

There is now far more stability and democracy in Iraq than there has been in any Middle Eastern country in the history of Earth, save Israel.

Good grief, you really need to brush up on your history.

There may have been more order under Sadaam to an extent, but there were hundreds of people being assasinated by secret police every month to make it happen.

For 50 years...

Now, last year, as a result of the Surge, there were Shiite and Sunni women voting in an open election more than one candidate. You were saying about having his facts straight?

Because open elections work around the world. Apart from Korea, and a lot of Africa, and Australia and a lot of other first world countries.

Simply restoring the status quo under military order doesn't work. That was the end result of World War 1; which created the spiralling debt in Germany which lead to the rise of the NASI party.

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

First of all, get your information correct.


We did not "free iraq from an evil dictator".

What we did was invade them so we could get closer to the oil in Iran. We did not overthrow a dictator, we absolutely demolished any iota of social and government stability for no good reason.

Sudan actually needed our help, and we chose to ignore them.

There should not be pride or shame involved in your nationality. Simply be proud to be a good person. "We" are not the nations police officers, we are a sizeable power and are expected to act responsibly.


Any more questions?

The joys of being the only optimist in a generation of damnable cynics.

While the US had economic motives for the invasion of Iraq there's no questioning that Sadam was a corrupt dictator or that the Middle East is a better place without him in power.

Sudan could have used help, but after what happened in Somalia when the US sent (perhaps you've heard a movie called Black Hawk Down?) aid I don't really blame our government for keeping their distance.

Whenever an organization endeavors to do something over a long span of time mistakes will be made. Whether or not that organizations actions are deemed "responsible" should be based on the goal. Shall I pull out some figures for foreign aid spending by the US government?