The White Man's Burden

[Zamn]

America can't win, and it bothers me. We're never allowed to be right. If we interfere in a foreign country (Iraq), and free their citizens from an evil dictator, we're imperialist dogs. If we fail to interfere in a foreign country (Sudan), we're amoral bastards.

I think you're making the mistake of generalising the rest of the world into a single homogenous mass. The people who criticise you for intervening in Iraq and the people who criticise for not intervening in Sudan are probably not the same people. And of course the comparison is extremely crude because Iraq and Sudan are very different countries.

Personally, I don't necessarily oppose American interventionism, my problem is that America is not consistent. You can't claim the moral high ground for toppling a brutal dictatorship in Iraq when you're supporting other brutal dictatorships in Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan and Egypt to name just three. For America, a dictatorship is only a dictatorship if it's an enemy, otherwise it's a 'developing democracy'.

America's role as world policeman is a self-appointed one and one that is bitterly resented in much of the world, even in America's European allies (except for their British lapdogs) most people are hostile to this sort of policy. I think America could 'win' in the eyes of most non-Americans if abandons its role as world policeman and if it wants to keep it they keep they're going to have to start being consistent and stop sorting the 'good' dictatorships from the 'bad' dictatorships.

 

[Simalacrum]

I'm fine with America itself, i have been there several times and its a fine country, people are very nice and more willing to help compared to England. Problem i often have is with the politians and some of their policies - I hated Mr. Bush for example, for not only trampling over 2 countries, but doing so without any real or realistic plan. Hopefully Obama will be different though, since he is sending troops into Afghanistan, but with a more clear plan, which tries to avoid conflicts with the enemy but help with the training of the national army and, very crucially, the proper education of children in Afghanistan. (one of the major reasons that the Terrorists have so many supporters is quite possibly because they are setting up their own education for territories already under their control)

 

[Ridonculous_Ninja]

First of all, get your information correct.


We did not "free iraq from an evil dictator".

What we did was invade them so we could get closer to the oil in Iran. We did not overthrow a dictator, we absolutely demolished any iota of social and government stability for no good reason.

Sudan actually needed our help, and we chose to ignore them.

There should not be pride or shame involved in your nationality. Simply be proud to be a good person. "We" are not the nations police officers, we are a sizeable power and are expected to act responsibly.


Any more questions?

EDIT:what do you mean we can't "win"?

If winning means not being universally hated, of course we can win, it just takes some effort to dispel most of the rumors about us that tend to be true.

Really, people need to shut the fuck up about us invading for oil. If that were the case, maybe we'd have started, you know, buying the oil? And drilling for oil? And any of that shit you need to do with oil before it goes in your car? Ever thought about that?

And yes, we did *liberate* an *opressed nation* from a *batshit crazy dictator.* There is now far more stability and democracy in Iraq than there has been in any Middle Eastern country in the history of Earth, save Israel. There may have been more order under Sadaam to an extent, but there were hundreds of people being assasinated by secret police every month to make it happen.

Now, last year, as a result of the Surge, there were Shiite and Sunni women voting in an open election more than one candidate. You were saying about having his facts straight?

Why would the US buy the oil when they can take it over when they go in under false pretenses? Why would the US start drilling for oil when the Iraqis already where?

Seriously, Iraq was a stupid idea, you went in to get rid of Saddam because Bush didn't like him, now you can't leave or everything goes back to the way it was or gets worse.

Brilliant

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

It is dangerous to America to intervene in foreign lands like the Middle East. 500,000 Iraqis dead, and for what? How exactly is that better for them than Saddam Hussein? 4,000 Americans have died, and the world is more dangerous and our enemies are stronger than ever before.

The United States does not need to have a presence all over the world. We don't need to wage war, we don't need to tolerate rampant illegal immigration or dilution of our native culture, something no one else in the world would stand for, or should.

To sum it up, we need to live and let live, just like our Founding Fathers imagined we should. Sane wars are fought for a better peace (nod to J.F.C. Fuller). The Federal government leaves a desert, and calls it "peace."

EDIT: I suppose I should nod to Tacitus, too.

 

[LilGherkin]

I'll tell you who has it the hardest: White Men. We make the unpopular, difficult decisions - the tough choices. We land on the moon and Normandy Beach and they resent us. -Alec Baldwin on 30 Rock

 

[steveo_justice]

I

There is now far more stability and democracy in Iraq than there has been in any Middle Eastern country in the history of Earth, save Israel.

Good grief, you really need to brush up on your history.

There may have been more order under Sadaam to an extent, but there were hundreds of people being assasinated by secret police every month to make it happen.

For 50 years...

Now, last year, as a result of the Surge, there were Shiite and Sunni women voting in an open election more than one candidate. You were saying about having his facts straight?

Because open elections work around the world. Apart from Korea, and a lot of Africa, and Australia and a lot of other first world countries.

Simply restoring the status quo under military order doesn't work. That was the end result of World War 1; which created the spiralling debt in Germany which lead to the rise of the NASI party.

It pleases me that I got 3 quoted comments in 20 minutes.

You're right having a fair vote and human rights is not a sign of stability in and of itself. So, you can have a pick between that and having your family tortured and killed in a peaceful, ordered society. FOAR 50 YEARRS LOL d'urrrr....

And usually, when open elections don't work, it has more to do with the election being rigged and unfair. Actually, I don't really know how to respond to waht you said there, because I don't see what point you're making with it.

And you desperately need to do a little research on WWI. The spiralling debt in Germany was due to the Treaty of Versailles, which created a lot of adversity between countries and peoples, which Hitler and the Nazis exploited to gain power. Again, however, I don't see what point you're trying to make, since restoreing the status quo had nothing to do with any of the war. You're not making sense here, man.

 

[steveo_justice]

First of all, get your information correct.


We did not "free iraq from an evil dictator".

What we did was invade them so we could get closer to the oil in Iran. We did not overthrow a dictator, we absolutely demolished any iota of social and government stability for no good reason.

Sudan actually needed our help, and we chose to ignore them.

There should not be pride or shame involved in your nationality. Simply be proud to be a good person. "We" are not the nations police officers, we are a sizeable power and are expected to act responsibly.


Any more questions?

EDIT:what do you mean we can't "win"?

If winning means not being universally hated, of course we can win, it just takes some effort to dispel most of the rumors about us that tend to be true.

Really, people need to shut the fuck up about us invading for oil. If that were the case, maybe we'd have started, you know, buying the oil? And drilling for oil? And any of that shit you need to do with oil before it goes in your car? Ever thought about that?

And yes, we did *liberate* an *opressed nation* from a *batshit crazy dictator.* There is now far more stability and democracy in Iraq than there has been in any Middle Eastern country in the history of Earth, save Israel. There may have been more order under Sadaam to an extent, but there were hundreds of people being assasinated by secret police every month to make it happen.

Now, last year, as a result of the Surge, there were Shiite and Sunni women voting in an open election more than one candidate. You were saying about having his facts straight?

Why would the US buy the oil when they can take it over when they go in under false pretenses? Why would the US start drilling for oil when the Iraqis already where?

Seriously, Iraq was a stupid idea, you went in to get rid of Saddam because Bush didn't like him, now you can't leave or everything goes back to the way it was or gets worse.

Brilliant

Maybe I should have been more clear so this makes sense to you people:

We have not. Taken any fossil fuels. From Iraq. Period.

And, it's "Were." Not, "Where."

We went in because there was substantial evidence of WMDs in the region, and of the Iraqi government working with terrrorists. We DID find WMDs, just no nuclear weapons. People keep forgetting about the CB in CBN weapon, for some reason, it's the darndest thing. And seriously, people, Sadaam knew we were coming for months. Assuming he did have nukes, do you think that, given the manpower and resources of a totalitarian oil nation, you could hide sever warheads the size of a large sedan in a desert the size of Europe? Come on, people.

 

[bookboy]

First of all, get your information correct.


We did not "free iraq from an evil dictator".

What we did was invade them so we could get closer to the oil in Iran. We did not overthrow a dictator, we absolutely demolished any iota of social and government stability for no good reason.

Sudan actually needed our help, and we chose to ignore them.

There should not be pride or shame involved in your nationality. Simply be proud to be a good person. "We" are not the nations police officers, we are a sizeable power and are expected to act responsibly.


Any more questions?

EDIT:what do you mean we can't "win"?

If winning means not being universally hated, of course we can win, it just takes some effort to dispel most of the rumors about us that tend to be true.

Really, people need to shut the fuck up about us invading for oil. If that were the case, maybe we'd have started, you know, buying the oil? And drilling for oil? And any of that shit you need to do with oil before it goes in your car? Ever thought about that?

And yes, we did *liberate* an *opressed nation* from a *batshit crazy dictator.* There is now far more stability and democracy in Iraq than there has been in any Middle Eastern country in the history of Earth, save Israel. There may have been more order under Sadaam to an extent, but there were hundreds of people being assasinated by secret police every month to make it happen.

Now, last year, as a result of the Surge, there were Shiite and Sunni women voting in an open election more than one candidate. You were saying about having his facts straight?

Why would the US buy the oil when they can take it over when they go in under false pretenses? Why would the US start drilling for oil when the Iraqis already where?

Seriously, Iraq was a stupid idea, you went in to get rid of Saddam because Bush didn't like him, now you can't leave or everything goes back to the way it was or gets worse.

Brilliant

NATO didn't go in to get rid of Saddam because Bush didn't like him (you mean the younger Bush, right?) but because he really was a "batshit crazy dictator" who was put into power by the U.S.A. as an anti-communist dictator but then started numerous wars and destabilized the region.

 

[runtheplacered]

Can i ask why your proud to be an American? Its little more than an accident of birth it dosent endeer anything special upon us just which lump of rock we had the fortune to land upon. Its cool to be happy your an American but i never got all this patriotism stuff flags and anthems do nothing for me.

Flags and anthems are not patriotism, their ways to express it. Patriotism is the love of your country and the willingness to do something for it.

The importance of patriotism for a nation's long-term survival cannot be understated.

Damn, I was hoping you could answer that question, since I've always wondered it, too. But you just sort of danced around it, instead of answering it. Maybe next time.

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

Can i ask why your proud to be an American? Its little more than an accident of birth it dosent endeer anything special upon us just which lump of rock we had the fortune to land upon. Its cool to be happy your an American but i never got all this patriotism stuff flags and anthems do nothing for me.

Flags and anthems are not patriotism, their ways to express it. Patriotism is the love of your country and the willingness to do something for it.

The importance of patriotism for a nation's long-term survival cannot be understated.

Damn, I was hoping you could answer that question, since I've always wondered it, too. But you just sort of danced around it, instead of answering it. Maybe next time.

I'm patriotic because I like my culture and want it to survive. How's that?

 

[runtheplacered]

We went in because there was substantial evidence of WMDs in the region, and of the Iraqi government working with terrrorists. We DID find WMDs, just no nuclear weapons. People keep forgetting about the CB in CBN weapon, for some reason

What? Do you mean CBRN? That's just an acronym for "chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear". What do you mean we "found CBRN"? That's a very generic term. It's just another word for WMD, really.

Also, when you reply to me, don't be a dick like you were to whoever it was you replied to. It's not helping you be taken seriously when you sound like you're a freshman in high school who just got beat up before you wrote that, and are taking your emotional woes out on the internet. I don't care about your emotional needs. I just want facts.

Can i ask why your proud to be an American? Its little more than an accident of birth it dosent endeer anything special upon us just which lump of rock we had the fortune to land upon. Its cool to be happy your an American but i never got all this patriotism stuff flags and anthems do nothing for me.

Flags and anthems are not patriotism, their ways to express it. Patriotism is the love of your country and the willingness to do something for it.

The importance of patriotism for a nation's long-term survival cannot be understated.

Damn, I was hoping you could answer that question, since I've always wondered it, too. But you just sort of danced around it, instead of answering it. Maybe next time.

I'm patriotic because I like my culture and want it to survive. How's that?

You couldn't survive unless you were personally patriotic? Somehow I doubt that. I'm not very patriotic, but I still have a pulse.

As for the bit about culture, I don't know what to tell you there. There's a million different types of cultures within this country. I wouldn't know which one you're speaking of, in particular.

The problem with saying "I'm a patriot", is that there are many different ways to take that, and rightfully so. Depending upon the (here it is) culture you can think up all kinds of different definitions in your mind.

"Better dead then red". Is that patriotism? That just sounds like stupidity to me. But, some would say that's patriotic.

If I saw a shady individual who I suspected was a terrorist, I'd definitely tell the authorities. Now in this case, I'm suddenly a patriot.

It just depends on the context of the word being used. Just saying, "I'm a patriot" is practically meaningless to me.

 

[US Crash Fire]

we are the police of the world if you think about it. everyone hates cops untill they need one to save them. i can deal with that.

 

[Shock and Awe]

First of all, get your information correct.


We did not "free iraq from an evil dictator".

What we did was invade them so we could get closer to the oil in Iran. We did not overthrow a dictator, we absolutely demolished any iota of social and government stability for no good reason.

Sudan actually needed our help, and we chose to ignore them.

There should not be pride or shame involved in your nationality. Simply be proud to be a good person. "We" are not the nations police officers, we are a sizeable power and are expected to act responsibly.


Any more questions?

EDIT:what do you mean we can't "win"?

If winning means not being universally hated, of course we can win, it just takes some effort to dispel most of the rumors about us that tend to be true.

Really, people need to shut the fuck up about us invading for oil. If that were the case, maybe we'd have started, you know, buying the oil? And drilling for oil? And any of that shit you need to do with oil before it goes in your car? Ever thought about that?

And yes, we did *liberate* an *opressed nation* from a *batshit crazy dictator.* There is now far more stability and democracy in Iraq than there has been in any Middle Eastern country in the history of Earth, save Israel. There may have been more order under Sadaam to an extent, but there were hundreds of people being assasinated by secret police to make it happen.

Now, last year, as a result of the Surge, there were Shiite and Sunni women voting in an open election more than one candidate. You were saying about having his facts straight?

You're joking right? Having a larger democratic population voting is no proof of stability. Where the hell are you getting stability from? Killing a batshit crazy man who was holding together a country is not stabilizing it.

We invaded iraq so we would be in a better position to invade iran.

We invaded under the pretense that WMD were there.

We were already in Afghanistan, why would we need Iraq? And if we wanted oil, why didnt we just invade Saudi Arabia? And if the goverment is smart enough to fool people into beleiving the stuff about WMDs, wouldent be able to figure out that it would be easier just to buy the oil?