There are no two words in the English language more harmful than "good job".

[KissingSunlight]

This has been a topic that has been bothering me for awhile. I couldn't find a good way to broach it. Until, I saw Whiplash. Then, I figured I should wait until more people have seen the movie before I start a thread about it. If you still haven't seen the movie or understand the context of this movie quote in the headline, I have the scene right here.


I am a member of the last generation that played dodgeball in school. Also, the last generation that spanking was an acceptable punishment to discipline your children. I have seen what happened when to people that don't face consequences for their actions. Instead, they were raised that everything they did was great. They were rewarded just for participating. So, they learned they can do whatever they want and still get a trophy as if they actually tried. As a result, we have people who feel entitled to do whatever they want to everybody and everything, and they should not be held accountable for their actions. It seems like their thought process is: I'm pissing on you. I'm still pissing on you. I am going to continue to piss on you. Wut?!? U Mad Bro?

There is nothing wrong with a healthy self-esteem. However, this push for special snowflake status called "Political Identity" is causing people to look for a shield to deflect any criticism for their actions. Their argument is "You can't criticize me. Cuz U don't know me!" Of course, what they really mean: I don't care about you. So, fuck off!

We somehow let the aggressors become the victims. Anybody who defend themselves from these assholes are the aggressors. In most cases, criminals. (I'm sure I can find links to news stories that will provide examples of this.)

I know this post is going to make me sound like a cranky old man yelling at children "Get off my lawn!" Yet, I refuse to believe that the assholes have taken over the asylum. There has to be some good people left on this planet. Good people who have common sense, a conscience, and manners. If they are still good people around, we need to stand up to these spoiled brats that are fucking up everything. We need to employ tough love on them. Maybe, they will get disciplined enough to stop being assholes. If not, we can just throw a chair at their heads and scream at them. Seriously, if you haven't seen Whiplash, then do so already.

EDIT: I have made 2 more posts clarifying some points. They are Post #8 and Post #65.

 

[FalloutJack]

We somehow let the aggressors become the victims.

What's this 'we' stuff, fella?

The kinds of people you're talking about are not a threat. In fact, the effect you speak of has rendered them less-able to do harm than any normal asshole, because - as a side effect - they wouldn't be very good at anything. Anybody who is a jackass victim is in that position has never really accomplished much in their lives, hence their defensive attitude. Because the ***** in their armor makes them very sore, all they can do is lash out, but the manner in which it is done doesn't make you look like a dick. It makes them look like a whiney dick.

Now, an abundance of said people are a problem, in that they're a drag on a community like a bag of old socks. These are not people who get anywhere in life. Wrong attitude to be able to, ergo they're stuck. It doesn't matter what they SAY to you. The issue is that they're useless, so what can you do WITH THEM? In what manner can they be put to any good use? Unfortunately, the only answers I can come up with end in places that I hate, like Wal-Mart.

 

[lechat]

ahhh now i get the reference.
seen this reference pop up in an article about teaching music and i agreed with it in that context but it should be up to parents and teachers to instill a level of realism in their teaching that encourages the student while also pointing out their weaknesses. Too many students quit things they love because they fear they will never be any goo instead of putting the hours into practice.

as far as the rest of the world is concerned they are under no obligation to boost your self esteem in any way. sooner you realize the world doesn't give a shit about your feelings the better.

 

[Zhukov]

That guy in the movie clip is so full of shit.

If "the next Charlie Parker" was, by definition, not going to be discouraged by tough love then chances are he also wasn't going to be satisfied with just doing a "good job".

And yeah, all this moaning over "participation award culture" or whatever you want to call it doesn't amount to any more than yet another generation wringing their hands about the supposed shortcomings of the youth of today. In this case, borderline incoherent hand-wringing.

Fear not, for the hand wringers will wither up, go senile and die and the supposed no-hope youths will grow up to be more-or-less functioning adults to eventually take their places. Y'know, much like we've been doing for the past however many thousands of years.

 

[Twintix]

Fear not, for the hand wringers will wither up, go senile and die and the supposed no-hope youths will grow up to be more-or-less functioning adults to eventually take their places. Y'know, much like we've been doing for the past however many thousands of years.

And then those adults will complain about the next generation of youngsters, because that's what adults do.

And the cycle continues...

OT: Heh, this thread reminds me of this C&H comic:

I think it does bring up a good point: There are kids out there who are being too coddled, and the "Everybody is a winner" mentality does not help the kids in the long run. However, while a little competition and "putting things at stake" is healthy in small doses, I resent it when adults make it a competition in "secret", so to speak.

What I mean by that is when I was in middle school, I hated having athletics classes in P.E because I was bad at pretty much everything that wasn't shot put. I wasn't particularly fast or could jump particularly high. Neither did it help that my P.E teacher seemed to prefer the kids who were good at sports. (She gave me a worse grade because she thought I had the "wrong attitude" during ONE gymnastics class, and that was only because the ***** refused to help me for the entire class even though I asked her for help repeatedly) But while I did feel sucky, I thought that the teacher at least hadn't made it a contest during the regular classes.

That was until I looked into her binder and saw a separate page with only the three best scores amongst the students. Since we weren't competing or anything, what was the point of doing it like that?

But uh, aside from that, it's important to encourage your kids, but it's just as important to also be realistic with them and tell them that they just aren't good at some things. Sometimes, your best is just not good enough, which is something I realized when studying engineering and is one of the reasons I dropped out. (Studying your hardest and still failing the exams is a bit tiring and a sign that engineering is just not for me)

I think we should teach our kids to always aim to win, but to not sulk and give up if they lose.

(I do think that calling "Good job!" damaging words because of a few coddled little shitheads is a bit hyperbolic, though.)

 

[carnex]

This is a touchy subject to say the least. But, one thing has to be said. Not making kids, toddlers and even babies learn the pain of loosing is, ultimately, doing them a disservice. But also is, learning them the pain of loosing without supportive network that will help child overcome that loss thorough their own effort.

Tough love is here to stay because tough love works like like no other method does. Tough love gives result better than any other method. It's a balancing act, dancing on a knife's edge of either destroying or blanketing the talent in limiting praises, but it does what it does leaps and bounds better than any other method. And is that person angel or devil depends mostly on personal position and social circumstances. (Hey, Bela Karolyi changed from "Romanian Child Butcher" to national hero the instant when he started coaching USA female gymnast team)

Not only that, but people who don't learn to handle the loss and overcome it through sheer effort even it meant taking a thousand punches before the first pat on the back never learn to cope with real life. And that is one huge part of why internet culture is like it is today in my opinion.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

The "good job" mentality that pushes the "Political Identity" is usually solved in real life quick fast anyways. It's not that far-fetched to understand why either, at least not for males. I think Anthony Bourdain said it best: "Everyone needs a good ass kicking at least once in their life." Generally this isn't the reality check that most males don't get until they're young adults, hell even most young women get it. The result is one of three things; crying and wallowing in victim status, becoming a total thug, or most commonly getting some humility and trying harder. The ones who get stuck in the first two options were born losers anyways, but the vast majority who through such an experience get their act together are the ones who win. I should clarify that this isn't necessarily a physical ass kicking, it can be a verbal and emotional smack down too.

Basically most kids even when pushed don't get the connections to how the real adult world works, they don't get it even in college/university. This is the reality check that crops up after school is out, this is the necessary reality check that teaches a person that they're not the special snow flake they think they are. That they're just another person making their way in life, looking for that glimmer of gold that'll make them independently wealthy, but until then they gotta suck it up like everyone else.

This isn't a lesson we can teach in school, this is the experience where the real world finally comes up and kicks our asses, it's something that has happened forever, that final loss of innocence. There are those that never learn this lesson, fortunately for the rest of us these are also the kind of people who end up isolated from the rest of society in prison. Either that, or they're the kind of pitiable sort who can't ever catch a break because reality keeps them too busy with butt kickings they fail to learn anything from.

As callous as what I said here is, it's also the truth. We're a terrible species that constantly looks to break each other, when presented with these situations we can either break, or get stronger. Since getting stronger and better is the survival instinct.

The unfortunate side is that the social liberal and social progressive movement wants to prevent this last reality check that tells us what's expected of us as adults. Especially in the radfem side of feminism, which doesn't limit the focus here to women. They want everyone to miss this reality check, or if they get it to be a totally helpless victim so that they can remain special snowflake children for their entire lives. I don't believe this is out of malice either, I believe it's because so many of these people want to live in a perfect utopia. It's just too bad that's not anything like what the real world is.

 

[KissingSunlight]

We somehow let the aggressors become the victims.

What's this 'we' stuff, fella?

The kinds of people you're talking about are not a threat. In fact, the effect you speak of has rendered them less-able to do harm than any normal asshole, because - as a side effect - they wouldn't be very good at anything. Anybody who is a jackass victim is in that position has never really accomplished much in their lives, hence their defensive attitude. Because the ***** in their armor makes them very sore, all they can do is lash out, but the manner in which it is done doesn't make you look like a dick. It makes them look like a whiney dick.

Now, an abundance of said people are a problem, in that they're a drag on a community like a bag of old socks. These are not people who get anywhere in life. Wrong attitude to be able to, ergo they're stuck. It doesn't matter what they SAY to you. The issue is that they're useless, so what can you do WITH THEM? In what manner can they be put to any good use? Unfortunately, the only answers I can come up with end in places that I hate, like Wal-Mart.

I mean "we" as a society. Not, you and I, personally.

Re-reading my OP, I realize I had been venting about my job. One of my duties is performing light security. Most of the time confronting people who are committing minor crimes like public urination. (In case, you wonder where that "pissing" analogy came from.) What I keep dealing with when I confront these people. They look like a puppy who never been spanked before. For the longest time, I thought I was dealing with people who have mental disorders. Nobody who is reasonably intelligent could be that self-righteous and indignant when they are clearly in the wrong. What annoys me more is when people I confront play the race card. That kind of stupidity leaves me speechless. In fact, it took me about 5 minutes to come up with the previous sentence.

I hope this will give the OP a better context. I appreciate all the responses so far.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

We somehow let the aggressors become the victims.

What's this 'we' stuff, fella?

The kinds of people you're talking about are not a threat. In fact, the effect you speak of has rendered them less-able to do harm than any normal asshole, because - as a side effect - they wouldn't be very good at anything. Anybody who is a jackass victim is in that position has never really accomplished much in their lives, hence their defensive attitude. Because the ***** in their armor makes them very sore, all they can do is lash out, but the manner in which it is done doesn't make you look like a dick. It makes them look like a whiney dick.

Now, an abundance of said people are a problem, in that they're a drag on a community like a bag of old socks. These are not people who get anywhere in life. Wrong attitude to be able to, ergo they're stuck. It doesn't matter what they SAY to you. The issue is that they're useless, so what can you do WITH THEM? In what manner can they be put to any good use? Unfortunately, the only answers I can come up with end in places that I hate, like Wal-Mart.

I mean "we" as a society. Not, you and I, personally.

Re-reading my OP, I realize I had been venting about my job. One of my duties is performing light security. Most of the time confronting people who are committing minor crimes like public urination. (In case, you wonder where that "pissing" analogy came from.) What I keep dealing with when I confront these people. They look like a puppy who never been spanked before. For the longest time, I thought I was dealing with people who have mental disorders. Nobody who is reasonably intelligent could be that self-righteous and indignant when they are clearly in the wrong. What annoys me more is when people I confront play the race card. That kind of stupidity leaves me speechless. In fact, it took me about 5 minutes to come up with the previous sentence.

I hope this will give the OP a better context. I appreciate all the responses so far.

Not to derail the thread, but I'm wondering how many of those people were drunk at the time? I've worked in a hotel casino, and I've been around them enough to see some really odd instances of public urination. I literally once saw a drunk guy stop between the doors to a set of restrooms, right in the middle, face the wall, and whip it out, and just go right there. Which is a supremely good way to get one's self sent to jail for the night, along with being 86ed from the casino.[footnote]86ing is the act of trespassing someone from a property, and effectively banning them from that property for life. A not uncommon practice for Hotel Casinos here in Nevada, usually because of drunk people.[/footnote] People who are doing something wrong, even though they know it's wrong, will get indignant when they're drunk, because alcohol tends to do that to people.

 

[Ariseishirou]

This is the emptiest, most asinine whining I see around the internet these days. Some facts, here: 1) a direct correlation has been shown between corporal punishment as a child (e.g. spanking) and violent crime later in life, which is why most psychologists (and experts in their fields, not some empty-headed angry old codger belly-aching "back in my day" on the internet) recommend that you do not spank. Also, because it has been shown to be less effective than other methods, like positive reinforcement. Unsurprisingly, violent crime among youth in this "no spanking" generation is the lowest it has ever been. Ever. Been. All of those children from generations that were brought up "right" with "real" discipline turned into worthless criminal leeches on society at a much higher rate than today's "coddled" youth.

2) Top-rated schools are harder to get into than they have ever been. Ever. Been. The children of previous generations would not stand a chance against the "participation award" generation of today; their efforts simply do not match up to the sheer academic discipline the lazy, coddled, indulgent youth who were told "good job" manages to display now. They are more intelligent, more driven, and higher-achieving than the generations who were pummeled in dodge ball.

I too was of a generation where it was OK to spank, teachers looked the other way when kids were bullied, or openly encouraged bullies to pound other children in gym class. But I'm appalled by the people my age who seem to have turned into whinging, wheezing, fist-shaking 80-year-olds in their 30s looking back at the youth today and decrying all of their differences without even once considering than any of said differences may have merit, let alone any facts about the matter.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

No no, I get your meaning and all. My point is that they're all hopeless idiots, an effect which education has merely exposed like a bald spot. My recommendation is to shake your head at their nonsense and bust them for public urination, and tell them to stuff their backtalk.

Snip

Ah, so your careful response to such unapproved speech is, in fact, to complain and whinge on yourself, rather than just being constructive and insightful. Well, your point is completely lost in the tone of your post. Besides, your missing the fact that these are human failures.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Telling people they did a good job when they haven't is really not helpful no, it's plainly lying which teaches them to lie to others in the same way. But bashing them over the head will just as well teach them that is something that people do, as long as they are the ones in power.

Every action you take against them is one they will learn. So if you want people to turn out reasonably then treat them with reason. Explain why things are inadequate and how they fix them, then they got nothing but good guidance, they might learn to point out your flaws but that isn't something you are above or should fear either.
On the other hand if you intend to scream and shout like a headless monkey the most likely result is someone screaming and shouting back at you.

 

[Amir Kondori]

That guy in the movie clip is so full of shit.

If "the next Charlie Parker" was, by definition, not going to be discouraged by tough love then chances are he also wasn't going to be satisfied with just doing a "good job".

And yeah, all this moaning over "participation award culture" or whatever you want to call it doesn't amount to any more than yet another generation wringing their hands about the supposed shortcomings of the youth of today. In this case, borderline incoherent hand-wringing.

Fear not, for the hand wringers will wither up, go senile and die and the supposed no-hope youths will grow up to be more-or-less functioning adults to eventually take their places. Y'know, much like we've been doing for the past however many thousands of years.

This. I hate it when people make up some supposed problem with "the youth today" or whatever vague and unsubstantiated bullshit they want to get bothered by today. There are plenty of high achievers in the world, plenty of average joes, and plenty of underachievers, just as there has always been.

 

[Ariseishirou]

Snip

No no, I get your meaning and all. My point is that they're all hopeless idiots, an effect which education has merely exposed like a bald spot. My recommendation is to shake your head at their nonsense and bust them for public urination, and tell them to stuff their backtalk.

Snip

Ah, so your careful response to such unapproved speech is, in fact, to complain and whinge on yourself, rather than just being constructive and insightful. Well, your point is completely lost in the tone of your post. Besides, your missing the fact that these are human failures.

What is "unapproved speech"? Who brought that up? And if that's "complaining" and "whinging," then you're complaining and whinging yourself. Your tone is equally unhelpful and you offered no pertinent facts to the discussion, whereas my post did (the fact that these "undisciplined" children commit fewer crimes, and have higher IQ scores, GPAs, and test ratings than their un-"coddled" parents). What was the point of this response, even? To tone police, and nothing else?

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

Oh look. It's another one of those.

I couldn't possibly count the times I've heard people moaning about the whole "participation award" thing, but I've yet to see it employed myself. I don't know, is this supposed to be a US problem? My own teachers have been generally pretty straightforward about telling their students that they suck at something. Hell, my Literature teacher would take our essays, read out and mock the embarassing or nonsensical parts in front of the entire class.

This whole thing looks just like people here in Poland bitching about "stressless upbringing" and how it's supposedly going to be the end of civilization. Except that no living human being ever yet was blessed with seeing an actual parent employing this "stressless upbringing" tactic.

You know, the thing that annoys me the most about these rants is how vague they are. No actual specific examples given, just some nebulous fear-mongering. (I'm not talking about this thread specifically, since you gave ONE example).

 

[DanteRL]

Yeah that whole "You are a very special snowflake and the world loves you just the way you are" is bullshit, and people end up suffering for that. But the thing is, people are very different from each other, and deal with things in their on particular way.

Sure, that doesn't mean society has to adapt to everyone, people have to make an effort to develop social skills, but it's not just a matter of "Hey son, you gonna lose sometimes, suck it up and deal with it.", you can teach people how to deal WITH losing in a positive way, that you can learn from that. Be it that you have to improve a determined skill so you will do better next time, or that indeed he might not be good at all at what he did, because no one gets 100% of life, so it's time to look for another fields he's good at.

Snip

Ah, so your careful response to such unapproved speech is, in fact, to complain and whinge on yourself, rather than just being constructive and insightful. Well, your point is completely lost in the tone of your post. Besides, your missing the fact that these are human failures.[/quote]

And totally agree here, you sir, sounded whiniest than who made the post.

 

[shrekfan246]

Gonna agree with Zhukov, this just seems like another example of "Those damn kids these days!"

And I dunno how old you are, but I played dodgeball in school and I occasionally was spanked, so assuming you aren't much older than me, you really don't have a leg to stand on to say "those damn kids these days!" Either that or you don't know as much about the "kids these days" as you think you do. That's kind of a big problem with extrapolating upon an entire group demographic based on personal anecdotal evidence and pop culture.

People have been bemoaning "the next generation" of people since time immemorial, and it will continue into the future. Yet, somehow, society continues on. Miraculously, the collapse of humanity as we know it still hasn't struck.

 

[viscomica]

I think when saying to someone (especially a kid) 'good job' you have to be careful.
For instance, it's not damaging whatsoever if someone pushed their limits and did a "good job" even if it doesn't match other's perfomance. For instance, when I was a high school student I struggled with P.E a lot but the teacher had a system: she graded us based on our own performance. So she would tell us to perfom a series of exercises on our first class and work trying to make each of us improve our own records. It gave us something to look up to. That way that kid with asthma could improve their own record and enjoy a healthy activity (for instance)
Whenever we were competing (we often had volley tournaments) the teams were balanced so as to encourage healthy competition. We also had fun (and this comes from someone who despises sport with all their might)
In that sense, telling someone "good job" in a context of generally good spirited competition and self-improvement is good. Because you're telling someone "hey, even if what you did is not the best I've ever seen I appretiate that you pushed yourself to the limit to accomplish something. It makes me respect you for it"
Conversely, when you say "good job" to someone just for playing... well, that's another thing entirely. And I think this is a problem that doesn't only apply to achademics. It applies to life. If you haven't made a single effort and don't accomplish anything (because you haven't done any effort) then why should everyone applaude you and commend you for not trying? That's when I think saying "good job" is absolutely damaging.
Short answer, there isn't a definitive answer.

 

[Ariseishirou]

Yeah that whole "You are a very special snowflake and the world loves you just the way you are" is bullshit, and people end up suffering for that. But the thing is, people are very different from each other, and deal with things in their on particular way.

Sure, that doesn't mean society has to adapt to everyone, people have to make an effort to develop social skills, but it's not just a matter of "Hey son, you gonna lose sometimes, suck it up and deal with it.", you can teach people how to deal WITH losing in a positive way, that you can learn from that. Be it that you have to improve a determined skill so you will do better next time, or that indeed he might not be good at all at what he did, because no one gets 100% of life, so it's time to look for another fields he's good at.

Snip

Ah, so your careful response to such unapproved speech is, in fact, to complain and whinge on yourself, rather than just being constructive and insightful. Well, your point is completely lost in the tone of your post. Besides, your missing the fact that these are human failures.

And totally agree here, you sir, sounded whiniest than who made the post.[/quote]

So every response to the two salient points I made is going to be "b-but your tone!" Really?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Ideally you don't want to reward mediocrity but manage to find a way to motivate in a positive way.