There are no two words in the English language more harmful than "good job".

[Johnny Impact]

Sometimes it comes a little later in life. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4PE2hSqVnk

Ha, just kidding. Or am I? Most people, myself included, could use a speech like that a few times in their lives. It would have to be softer with kids or you'd just make them cry, but a little negative reinforcement doesn't hurt (or it helps by hurting, you know what I mean). There's a kid at my work who shows up twenty minutes late, always wants to leave early, stays out with his friends until early morning, constantly plays with his phone on the job -- and whines about how unmanageable his life is, how he doesn't get enough hours or sleep, and how he needs a raise. The boss told him three months ago that if he showed up on time every day for two weeks straight he'd get a raise. This is goddamned charity given his work ethic, and you know what? Kid still hasn't done it yet. To paraphrase Alec, there's a guy standing there, money in hand, and this kid isn't man enough to take it. And we all have stuff like that. I could lose weight, and I've wanted for years to take up powerlifting, I even have some weights, but I don't do it. Not because of physical infirmity but because I'm simply too lazy. My other coworker could try dating women who aren't obvious psychos, but he keeps making the same mistake. Those piano lessons you still aren't taking, that trip to Yellowstone you always talk about but never quite get around to, whatever it is, the reason your life sucks is because YOU suck.

Now, all that was kind of a tangent, but kind of not. The problem is with the parents. Parents need to understand that squirting out a kid is not, in itself, anything to be proud of. You made offspring? Big fuckin' deal. Monkeys do it every day. Starfish don't even have brains and they create offspring! That's about as low as the achievement bar goes, folks. Surely you want to reach just a tad higher than the basic biological processes you were born with? Something I see over and over that absolutely sickens me is the "I'm proud of my Anytown Middle School Student" bumper sticker. Really, Mom? Not even an honor roll sticker? It's pathetically easy to get on the honor roll and your kid didn't even do that much, let alone something noteworthy. It's fine to have children, it's great to love them, but stop being goddamned proud of mediocrity! Kids and parents both need to be told that if they want to be special, they should do more than tell themselves they're special. They should BE special. They should distinguish themselves. If they want to feel pride beyond basic dignity, they should do something to deserve it.

 

[Fox12]

And the moral of the story is we should throw a cymbal at your head?

Nah, my great grandparent beat my grand uncle with sticks for being gay. Beating kids with switches was seen as pretty normal back then, but today we would call that abuse. And maybe for good reason. We live in a civilized society. I was spanked, and I deserved it. But I wasn't abused. The standards changes between times and places. The Hebrews killed sons who swore at their parents. They'd probably think we went soft. Should we bring that back as well?

I'm all for discipline, but I don't think the new generation is spoiled at all. In fact, everyone I know is rather hard working. If the assholes are raised like this then they're in for a rude awakening when they reach adulthood. Your manager doesn't give you a participation award for failing to do your job. He fires your ass. Preferably your parents will teach you this, but if some people have to learn that the hard way then so be it. Society will bend them to its reality eventually.

 

[SiskoBlue]

Perfect place for this discussion. All opinion, no facts.

We've all know those entitled assholes, they've always existed in every generation. Whether there is more or less of them I couldn't say. But then the majority of Western civilisation could be accused of a sense of entitlment. We expect human rights, we expect tolerance, but I don't see many people here jumping up and down saying they're going to send 10% of their pay cheque to feed the starving and sick, even though we could afford the sacrifice.

But if you've been around long enough you#ll have definitely have come across people who weren't encouraged, were always bullied, and never told they did a "good job" at anything. I'm sure they can think of plenty of worse things than hearing "good job".

The main point of whiplash isn't that people feel entitled to a reward for doing OK, it's that greatness doesn't come without sacrifice. The "good job" is being viewed as some kind of anchor to that sacrifice. Personally I disagree. I think saying "Good job" is great to hear when it's earned (A recent article on IFLS said something about research that has shown simply saying well done to everything a kid does did not build confidence. Saying well done for something the child felt was a challenge, and felt pleased they had achieved did increase self-esteem. i.e. real achievement builds real confidence). The lesson kids need to learn greatness takes hard work. If they want greatness then sacrifice and a "good job" isn't enough, but it's a start.

My own opinion is that media shows people like Kim Kadasian and Paris Hiltion "succeeding" when they provide no benefit to anybody but themselves. They also make sport stars look like lucky lottery winners instead of pointing out the sheer amount of training and effort they've made to get there. And in too many cases celebrities escape consequences but rationalising and blaming others, so that's what kids emulate. Being an authoritative parent/mentor doesn't mean jack when the kid looks at their peer group and sees them "winning" without any hard work or effort.

 

[Quellist]

This is the emptiest, most asinine whining I see around the internet these days. Some facts, here: 1) a direct correlation has been shown between corporal punishment as a child (e.g. spanking) and violent crime later in life, which is why most psychologists (and experts in their fields, not some empty-headed angry old codger belly-aching "back in my day" on the internet) recommend that you do not spank. Also, because it has been shown to be less effective than other methods, like positive reinforcement. Unsurprisingly, violent crime among youth in this "no spanking" generation is the lowest it has ever been. Ever. Been. All of those children from generations that were brought up "right" with "real" discipline turned into worthless criminal leeches on society at a much higher rate than today's "coddled" youth.

2) Top-rated schools are harder to get into than they have ever been. Ever. Been. The children of previous generations would not stand a chance against the "participation award" generation of today; their efforts simply do not match up to the sheer academic discipline the lazy, coddled, indulgent youth who were told "good job" manages to display now. They are more intelligent, more driven, and higher-achieving than the generations who were pummeled in dodge ball.

I too was of a generation where it was OK to spank, teachers looked the other way when kids were bullied, or openly encouraged bullies to pound other children in gym class. But I'm appalled by the people my age who seem to have turned into whinging, wheezing, fist-shaking 80-year-olds in their 30s looking back at the youth today and decrying all of their differences without even once considering than any of said differences may have merit, let alone any facts about the matter.

You sir and your attitude are a very good example of the sickness in society today.

In my job I deal with children with 'behavioral problems' all the time, i see the latitude they are given by their parents and teachers and i see them grow up learning nothing of value. I've seen the contempt they have for authority figures and how well informed they are of their rights without a clue of any attendant responsibilities. Their only measure of Good is what is good for them and they care nothing for the consequences of their actions.

Inevitably when they hit 18 and the authorities drop them like a live grenade they have zero experience of how to get on in the world and almost invariably become at best unproductive leeches and at worst criminals. This is in no way their fault, but the fault of a society paralyzed by the dictates of your so-called experts

 

[loa]

Uh, fuck that old guy in the yt clip?
"Charlie parker would never be discouraged", my ass?
Realism is good and all but so is encouragement.
90% of what makes or breaks artists is not "talent" as so many people will falsely claim, it's working on it. Not breaking the chain. Actually sticking with it.

Now if all you get is getting booed off stages, guess what is more likely?
And don't give me your "something something bootstraps, murrica!" nonsense.

Also you can package constructive criticism in a way that doesn't make you come off like a complete asshole.
You did this thing good and you could be even better if you tried X and Y and there is ALWAYS something someone did passably well which is so very oftenly overlooked by our negatively biased society.
So you don't even have to give out "participation awards" to be constructive without being an asshole.

The keyword here is "constructive" tho and I see nothing constructive about general purpose, unpersonalized "participation awards".
It's a "good job" which contains about as much substance and direction as a "you suck".
Barely any. The "why" matters so I think we need to keep in mind what makes worthwhile criticism worthwhile.

 

[visiblenoise]

You're talking about two different kinds of assholes. I really don't think "good job" raises the kind of public-urinating assholes you're talking about. "Good job," especially in the context of Whiplash, is about simply allowing people to feel good about mediocrity, not refraining from punishment for doing things that are actually bad.

And Fletcher is a caricature, anyway. Exaggerated in order to create a film. Some of the values he represents (if you assume he's honest) I agree with, but I think he's too extreme of an example to be used as a vehicle for your topic.

 

[Bobic]

We somehow let the aggressors become the victims.

What's this 'we' stuff, fella?

The kinds of people you're talking about are not a threat. In fact, the effect you speak of has rendered them less-able to do harm than any normal asshole, because - as a side effect - they wouldn't be very good at anything. Anybody who is a jackass victim is in that position has never really accomplished much in their lives, hence their defensive attitude. Because the ***** in their armor makes them very sore, all they can do is lash out, but the manner in which it is done doesn't make you look like a dick. It makes them look like a whiney dick.

Now, an abundance of said people are a problem, in that they're a drag on a community like a bag of old socks. These are not people who get anywhere in life. Wrong attitude to be able to, ergo they're stuck. It doesn't matter what they SAY to you. The issue is that they're useless, so what can you do WITH THEM? In what manner can they be put to any good use? Unfortunately, the only answers I can come up with end in places that I hate, like Wal-Mart.

I mean "we" as a society. Not, you and I, personally.

Re-reading my OP, I realize I had been venting about my job. One of my duties is performing light security. Most of the time confronting people who are committing minor crimes like public urination. (In case, you wonder where that "pissing" analogy came from.) What I keep dealing with when I confront these people. They look like a puppy who never been spanked before. For the longest time, I thought I was dealing with people who have mental disorders. Nobody who is reasonably intelligent could be that self-righteous and indignant when they are clearly in the wrong. What annoys me more is when people I confront play the race card. That kind of stupidity leaves me speechless. In fact, it took me about 5 minutes to come up with the previous sentence.

I hope this will give the OP a better context. I appreciate all the responses so far.

Have you considered that maybe your job is just creating systematic bias in the people you meet. Because, to decry the current generation, you can't just point and say, 'look, there's some assholes', there's always been assholes, you need to show a higher rate of assholes (or, at least, this specific type of moronic asshole) than yesteryear.

A while ago on this site, someone complained about the downfall of society based on his wife's experiences as some kind of child related lawyer, saying that so many parents were just absolutely atrocious. And, it's true, there are some bafflingly, horrifically awful parents out there, but there's also plenty of good ones, the problem is, you don't go to court for being a good parent. So the opinion is naturally skewed (as an aside, I mean no disrespect to the guy, it's hard not to let stories like that get to you, he just makes a good example). Likewise, you don't call security to deal with the 20 year old gentleman who shopped (or whatever, you didn't specify where you work) without incident, and thanked the staff politely for all their help.

So, don't go decrying an entire generation of people, and the phantom of meaningless positive reinforcement, without some proof that we're currently dealing with a generation of a statistically significant, higher asshole density.

 

[CaitSeith]

Why are you using a video unrelated with your comment topic? The video is about artistic talent. Your comment is about bad behavior. Using the same method in both cases is like trying to use a hammer to deal with both nails and screws.

 

[WarpedMind]

You know, I was largely with you right up until you started conflating mollycoddling and not spanking your children.

Spanking is not a good parenting technique and it never ever has been, literally done [http://www.themoneytimes.com/node/85300] shows that spanking ONLY has negative effects on children and that these negative effects are far reaching and varies between everything from lower IQ, to more aggressive and anti-social behavior, to lower expected social mobility.

It's one thing to suggest that today's society is fails to value achievement and hard work, it's quite another to suggest that violence against children is okay as long as you do it in the designated ritual position.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

Listen to yourself, and then listen to me. I'm more composed and less abusive. Cultivate this trait and you will go far.

EDIT: To explain more deeply, the problem is that you have obvious disdain and even hatred to the point where it's clear BY the tone of your post that you do not wish to decry the OP on pointed subjects, but by merely making fun of him. The information because less relevent becomes because it was secondary to the intent to be offensive, thus creating more problems than solutions.

 

[Barbas]

I would like to politely disagree with that assertion; "wolf job" is likely absolute agony.

In a slightly more serious tone, the sentiments expressed in the OP have done the rounds a few times and I personally think we're actually largely better-off and more understanding now than we've ever been before.

 

[Muspelheim]

I doubt spanking has such a huge impact on a grown adult's character as people think. A guy who went to the same class as I when we were about ten got spanked and smacked quite a lot by his mum. Last thing I heard before we lost sight of each other, he got into some very bad company indeed.

As for me, there weren't really any spanking in my household. I got a few slaps and got clouted over the head a few times, but it didn't either make or break my upbringing. Spanking isn't the essential ingredience to good citizenship that people think it is, and it isn't the ultimate betrayal from a parent that other people think it is either.

[EDIT: violence against children under any circumstances are technically outlawed entirely in my country, but it matters a hell of a lot less than it seems. That law's only use is to deal with parents that thrash their children about for stress relief. I doubt any mothers have or will be dragged to court for slapping the kid after he set fire to the bikeshed.]

And while we're at it, I think life itself is pretty good at giving you the harder lessons you need. Very few people are going to scoot through it without getting burned here and there. And a lot of people get burned an awful lot more than they ought to be.

I very much doubt that the 'new generation' is more or less spoiled than the previous ones, even if the spoiled kids make it seem like it is. And if they are, whatever haven't been taken out of them by just living though life will be handled by stagnating economies, dying ecologies and all the other lovely presents Father Time is going to shit out on our doorstep.

 

[DrOswald]

Charlie Parker was practicing 15 hours a day before the Kansas City's Reno Club incident, the entire reason it happened was because he was trying something new and impressive and above all hard. He was a 16 year old playing among the most accomplished musicians in the world and he messed up because he went big and tried something new. He surprised and amazed the band and audience with his new and interesting ideas, but then he lost his thread and couldn't stick the landing. He didn't mess up because he was a punk kid who thought he could get away with mediocrity, and the response of the audience and Jones were small minded. They had witnessed a 16 year old self taught high school dropout nearly out perform life long trained musicians twice his age and display ideas and creativity well beyond those musicians. But that didn't matter to them because the kid failed due to his lack of formal training. They couldn't see past his lack of formal training to see the brilliance he possessed.

The Kansas City's Reno Club incident had nothing to do with Charlie Parkers accomplishments. But on the other hand, it might have had a good deal to do with his failures. Parker was a perpetual drug addict and drunk, which eventually destroyed his ability to make music. While we know he became an addict in his teenage years, he was never able to break away from the addiction. It has been suggested that a big factor that prevented him cleaning up was anxiety and stress. And how could he not experience anxiety and stress with the memories of embarrassment and humiliation from being so viciously mocked hanging over every performance? His substance abuse would eventually contribute heavily to his premature death at only 35 years old. That is a tragedy, and perhaps one that could have been avoided if people had been quicker to help and slower to mock.

And by the way, the incident did not play out as described in Whiplash. The film twisted the story so it would better fit the narrative angle it wanted to push, reality be damned.

TLR Charlie Parker didn't need a kick in the ass. He needed formal training. Fear and humiliation are bad motivators and provably lead to destructive behavior. Be careful of forming world views over dramatization, especially a dramatization that so readily twist and distorts facts to suit the narrative.

 

[Fox12]

snip

Look, crime rates are going down. World violence is going down. Population levels are leveling off or decreasing. My generation is the least violent in decades. Less vandalism, less premarital pregnancies, less drug use, safer sex, better education, more political and economic competence and understanding... the list goes on. Meanwhile, we've inherited a poor job market, two wars in the Middle East, terrorism, and exponential national debt. Some then have the nerve to tell us that we're irresponsible and lazy, all while leaving us with the bill, so to speak. Whenever an older individual complains about the youth of today, all I can do is shake my head and sigh. I'm not mad, really. I see my own family do it. My generation will probably do it too. But I won't be saying this when I'm older, because I'll know better.

This is the emptiest, most asinine whining I see around the internet these days. Some facts, here: 1) a direct correlation has been shown between corporal punishment as a child (e.g. spanking) and violent crime later in life, which is why most psychologists (and experts in their fields, not some empty-headed angry old codger belly-aching "back in my day" on the internet) recommend that you do not spank. Also, because it has been shown to be less effective than other methods, like positive reinforcement. Unsurprisingly, violent crime among youth in this "no spanking" generation is the lowest it has ever been. Ever. Been. All of those children from generations that were brought up "right" with "real" discipline turned into worthless criminal leeches on society at a much higher rate than today's "coddled" youth.

2) Top-rated schools are harder to get into than they have ever been. Ever. Been. The children of previous generations would not stand a chance against the "participation award" generation of today; their efforts simply do not match up to the sheer academic discipline the lazy, coddled, indulgent youth who were told "good job" manages to display now. They are more intelligent, more driven, and higher-achieving than the generations who were pummeled in dodge ball.

I too was of a generation where it was OK to spank, teachers looked the other way when kids were bullied, or openly encouraged bullies to pound other children in gym class. But I'm appalled by the people my age who seem to have turned into whinging, wheezing, fist-shaking 80-year-olds in their 30s looking back at the youth today and decrying all of their differences without even once considering than any of said differences may have merit, let alone any facts about the matter.

Nailed it. I'm hopelessly optimistic about the future. Genetically modified crops have saved an estimated 1 billion lives, with a B. My mother is a breast cancer survivor. She survived because of chemo therapy. We may not have a cure, but we can fight it. Throughout most of our 10,000 plus year history, we couldn't. It's only in the last few decades that we've been able to. That means she lives in the 1% of human history where we could do something about it. Any other time and she'd be dead. That's a miracle of science. I can listen to a British rock song inside a Japanese anime, before settling down with a nice piece of classical Hindu literature. We're becoming interconnected, and that's beautiful. The world has its problems, but it's becoming a much better place to live.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Re-reading my OP, I realize I had been venting about my job. One of my duties is performing light security. Most of the time confronting people who are committing minor crimes like public urination. (In case, you wonder where that "pissing" analogy came from.) What I keep dealing with when I confront these people. They look like a puppy who never been spanked before. For the longest time, I thought I was dealing with people who have mental disorders. Nobody who is reasonably intelligent could be that self-righteous and indignant when they are clearly in the wrong. What annoys me more is when people I confront play the race card. That kind of stupidity leaves me speechless. In fact, it took me about 5 minutes to come up with the previous sentence.

While I agree there is far too much of this "everyone's a winner" bullshit going around, I would say your job has most likely skewed your perception of it; it really isn't as much of an epidemic as you make it sound. If your work involves security, then it's basically your job to interact with arseholes.

Edit: Oh, and I'm going to have to disagree that the lack of spanking at the moment is some great injustice. For a long time I stuck with the "spanking is good" narrative, but over time it has become clear that evidence just does not support it. As much as I feel a lot of screaming brats could use a good smack, the catharsis of it is empty.

 

[lacktheknack]

Sorry, the hyperbole is way too strong.

There may be something to be said about "Good Job" being damaging when handed out wholesale, but I'm pretty sure, that given the right circumstances, any two-word insult would be significantly more damaging to pretty much anyone.

 

[Dr_thingamajig]

As someone probably young enough to count as part of the "participation trophy generation" I have to agree it's damaging, but not in the way I see a lot of people whining about. Kids certainly figure out that they aren't the most special ever, but myself and quite a few other people I know (wow, anecdotal evidence, so reliable and scientifically sound) are always incredibly skeptical of compliments and commendations from people, particularly in positions of authority, because we're so used to receiving fake obligatory congratulations and compliments that it's hard to tell if they actually mean it or they're just saying it as part of a school/workplace policy and/or politeness. (Disclaimer: This could just be a regular human trait and not necessarily a result of "everybody gets an award" culture)

 

[Erttheking]

Am I the only one who has never seen any of this coddling participation "last winner" culture? I really haven't so every time it gets brought up I'm scratching my head at what people are talking about.

And while yeah, competing has its place, I feel like we can remember that it is nice to have a comforting place where you can unwind. I like the challenge of Dark Souls and getting my face stomped in, but when I'm GMing I prefer to go easy on my players because I want to prioritize having a good time over anything else. And my sister was spanked when she was a kid. Didn't do jack to stop her life becoming a mess.