There seems to be a general dislike of fraternities

[SharPhoe]

Spoiler: Seldon's argument

While I must appreciate the effort you're making in attempting to humanize and defend fraternities and their members, your assumption that the animosity stems from a lack of knowledge or understanding of the workings of fraternities is, I assure you, mistaken. However, I'll play along:

Why is it that with all of the supposed focus on brotherhood and community, many (if not most) of the fraternities I've encountered in my university days been hotbeds of debauchery, illicit and illegal activity, and general douchebaggery? I don't mean this in a shallow "they pop their collars" kind of way, but in a much more specific "coming back to the dorms at two in the morning drunk of their asses and shouting loudly their desire for an icy-hot patch" kind of way.

If fraternities are supposed to be good organizations, promoting proper behavior, good works, responsibility, and all that good stuff, why are they consistently complicit in both underage drinking and alcohol abuse (even ignoring other drug use)?

Why is it that the vast majority of stories about a death by binge drinking, or about sexual assault/harassment, or about stupid pranks that do nothing but cause other people grief, involve frat boys? Why is it that I only ever hear stories about frat guys taking advantage of drunk girls in both violation of the law and of any kind of ethics?

Why is it that in class the frat boys tend to be the least engaged, least well-read, least thoughtful, and least quiet? Why is it that they can't seem to keep their ignorance and apathy to themselves?

Why is it that most of the traditions of fraternities either involve drinking or misogyny, if not both simultaneously?

Aside from the mainstay arguments of "it's about community and brotherhood", "we try to encourage responsible behavior", "it's traditional", and "you just don't understand/couldn't get into one, so you're jealous", can you provide one single substantive reason to allow them to continue to exist? They don't do anything to help the community (except the occasional fundraiser, usually some sort of drinking party, which could be done just as easily through other humanitarian and civic organizations without the costs of allowing frats to exist).

Oh, finally, would you please let us know:

1. Did you drink underage, or seen others in your frat (or within the premises)??
2. Have you ever done illicit substances in any context, or seen others on your frat's premises?
3. Have you ever hooked up with an intoxicated girl?
4. Do you, or any member of your frat get drunk and miss class?
5. Does your drinking and partying ever interfere with the lives of others who don't engage in such behavior?

If the answer to any of those is "yes", I think you'll have your answers about why people on this site (myself especially) dislike frats and frat boys. If the answer to all of them is "no", then either you have the single, solitary, good fraternity (I doubt it exists), or you're lying through your teeth

I know there's probably one or a few good and decent fraternities out there, but honestly, the only kinds I've ever seen or dealt with are ones like Seldon described. I honestly tried joining one once before. After going to their orientation and hearing nothing but stories about drinking and general bone-headed shenanigans, I opted out. I was looking for a place to belong, and that definitely wasn't it.

 

[Gene O]

Is there anything I could get through a fraternity that I couldn't get through other channels that don't require rushing, hazing, or fees.

Check the last few paragraphs of my second post.

I did. What makes you think anything you mentioned there isn't available elsewhere?

 

[Cody211282]

I have ahd a few friends that have been in frats, they were cool guys, there have also been people I hate who have been in frats, you get both sides, a broad generalization is an ass move, its like saying that everyone who plays wow is a social reject who will never get laid, or the football players are all retarded jocks, some are some are not

 

[Twilight_guy]

I go to a private college. All the fraternities are clubs for rich guys to meet other rich guys. I support that kind of fraternity (even if it seems dumb to me). Anyways, there seem to be a socioeconomic link between fraternities and how they act. I'm just wondering what your thoughts on that are.

 

[BonsaiK]

There's been a few attempts to get US-style fraternities started in Australia but they never get much of a foothold because the reputation of them is so disgusting, it's perceived as "that juvenile clubhouse stuff that American boys do - why would we want THAT here?". The whole concept of fraternities is seen here as very much against Australian cultural values, and people here look on fraternity members overseas with utter contempt and a sense of complete bewilderment. The concept that anything good could come out of a fraternity that couldn't be achieved in some other, more effecient manner, is totally laughable here. There's not even any public debate about it - everyone of all political, racial, academic and social persuasions in Australia is completely convinced that fraternities are stupid and unneccesary. It's one of the only things in Australia that academics all actually agree on.

Oh and in post 4 Seldon has made the single most insightful, intelligent and interesting post I have read in the entire history of me being a member of this forum.

 

[Ultrajoe]

There's been a few attempts to get US-style fraternities started in Australia but they never get much of a foothold because the reputation of them is so disgusting, it's perceived as "that juvenile clubhouse stuff that American boys do - why would we want THAT here?". The whole concept of fraternities is seen here as very much against Australian cultural values, and people here look on fraternity members overseas with utter contempt and a sense of complete bewilderment. The concept that anything good could come out of a fraternity that couldn't be achieved in some other, more effecient manner, is totally laughable here. There's not even any public debate about it - everyone of all political, racial, academic and social persuasions in Australia is completely convinced that fraternities are stupid and unneccesary. It's one of the only things in Australia that academics all actually agree on.

Besides, we do crap twice as stupid and pointless as any fraternity without needing to remember any greek letters.

Advance Australia's Flair.

 

[BonsaiK]

There's been a few attempts to get US-style fraternities started in Australia but they never get much of a foothold because the reputation of them is so disgusting, it's perceived as "that juvenile clubhouse stuff that American boys do - why would we want THAT here?". The whole concept of fraternities is seen here as very much against Australian cultural values, and people here look on fraternity members overseas with utter contempt and a sense of complete bewilderment. The concept that anything good could come out of a fraternity that couldn't be achieved in some other, more effecient manner, is totally laughable here. There's not even any public debate about it - everyone of all political, racial, academic and social persuasions in Australia is completely convinced that fraternities are stupid and unneccesary. It's one of the only things in Australia that academics all actually agree on.

Besides, we do crap twice as stupid and pointless as any fraternity without needing to remember any greek letters.

Advance Australia's Flair.

My point exactly. Australians may be drunk idiots, but we're honest drunk idiots. We don't try and pretend we're better than everyone else while we're acting stupid by hiding behind the image of some club. We just act like stupid drunks, and when we're pulled up on it later we just say "yeah I was being a stupid drunk".

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

And I think it stems from their being a lack of knowledge of what being a member actually means. So in that spirit I would like to ask you all to bring me your questions regarding fraternities. I hope that through answering your questions I might bring a little understanding to both sides and maybe just maybe show you the face behind those polo shirts.

It either stems from ignorance or from living just off the University of Washington campus (not a student) and being exposed on a regular basis to the hooting dickholes on Fraternity Row. If they are the minority, they are a loud, obnoxious, and just plain aggressive minority. If that's not what frats are really about and it's not what they are really like, then all you good frats need to get together and make these jackasses sit down, shut up, and show some respect for the people around them. As it is, frat row at UW is like a live re-enactment of Xbox Live.

 

[megapenguinx]

Not all frats are bad, just a majority of them. Here is the way I see it: Frats are a place you go to buy friends.
Most frat guys just like to get drunk and screw around with the sorority girls.
But that's just my 2 cents

 

[zen5887]

Besides, we do crap twice as stupid and pointless as any fraternity without needing to remember any greek letters.

Advance Australia's Flair.

I was reading the 5 questions while thinking about all the people I knew in high school who could tick that stuff off.

And lets not mention my mates Australia Day party.

The idea of frats never appealed to me. It might have something to do with my individuality but most likely my sense of I-don't-careilty.

Having said all that.. Seldon's post made me smile, its good to see some good left in the world.

 

[Verstan]

From my experience the closest you get to a frat in the uk is the sports and societes at a university.

for example in my university the footballer ( soccer players) were the most despsised on campus for similar reasons listed above. however over heres its only the group mentality i knew a few guys who were pretty sound.

abnd on the 5 questions....
thats every day student life in the UK
either we dont mind it as much or were just bad people

 

[Tartarga]

im already surrounded by a bunch of douchy frat guys and im still in highschool so there is no way im going to join one and anyone who thinks they need to join a fraternity to pick up chicks is pathetic in my eyes

 

[Guitar Gamer]

I really have a vague idea of what a fraternity actually is but it seems to be a group of men that live together, some sort of society that cares for each other (in theory) and keeps college dudes out of trouble, am I in the ball park there? I'm not even sure if we have them in Canada

 

[dwightsteel]

College for many is a social experiment in which they test the bounds of new found freedoms away from structure and rules. College culture, is a testament to that fact. With parties and experimentation the norm. That is no excuse of course, but the point is that its not only brothers who are being loud and drunk in the halls at four in the morning. In fact, if I was to party I'd much rather drink at a chapter house over some apartment. We take care of our own and their guests, most of the time no one leaves alone and that goes along way to cutting down those types of problems.

I'm sorry, but that does nothing to address the point that Seldon made about fraternities being made to set an example for good community standards and any other of the pillars that college fraternities were supposed to embody. It's admirable that your fraternity makes an effort to lessen the distance between the moral high and low ground, but that doesn't mean that they are on an even playing field.

I can't really say much about underage drinking without turning this into a drinking age debate. It happens but its not seen as a bad thing on campus. I also can't speak on the policies for other fraternities but mine has rules on drinking and addiction. If there is suspicion of alcoholism (when it begins to affect a brothers behavior negatively) they are banned from drinking, a mixed bag here, and we get that person help. You wouldn't think it, but a fraternity can really come together like any family would.

No, you can speak of this without turning into an underage drinking debate, because that is irrelevant at best. If fraternities are supposed to be positive organizations dedicated to being upright (and that is indeed why colleges allow such affiliations to their school), then underage drinking is a problem. It's an illegal activity that you openly admit that your fraternity takes part in. There is nothing to debate, the pros and cons of underage drinking wasn't the point.

All-in-all, people party because its fun. Kicking fraternities off campus won't stop that fact. When it comes to sexual harassment and sleeping with a girl who has had a bit to much, I can't speak for everyone. I believe heavily in choice and when a girl is passed out she can't make that decision. If it happened in our house police would be called. It would not be swept under the rug. The brothers who I am closet to think the same way. We do have ethics.

I hope that this is true, and I'm not going to doubt your word, but when it comes to house parties, your organization is facilitating an atmosphere where something like this is bound to happen. It's a big deal because this wasn't the idea of one stupid kid throwing a party while his parents are out of town, it's an organization that is taking responsibility.

Greek men and women have higher GPA's on average at my university then those not in a chapter. In my fraternity we have mandatory study sessions and a GPA requirement on top of that. You just generalized an entire group of people and you talk about ignorance? There are extremes in every group, and extremes tend to give the worst view on how any group act.

I'm with Seldon on this one too. I've been to many college campuses. I've seen the parties, and been to a few of them. I've gone to school with frat boys. If you're fraternity does indeed hold such standards, then again, good for you. But I'm not ignorant of the norm of such groups. It's not ignorance when you've experienced these "generalizations" first hand, and on MANY occasions. This isn't a matter of extremes. It appears to be a matter of your fraternity being somewhat of an outlier, or maybe it's your college campus with more stringent rules on the matter, that make them the outlier. Just because you're in one, doesn't mean you can speak for fraternities everywhere. You know this though, because you've as much said it yourself.

It happens but, fraternities (along with any university sponsored social organization) aren't supposed to haze, with very serious punishments coming down from the university if any cases come forward. My pledge ship was not always fun, but you really do come out the other side knowing your fellow pledges incredibly well.

I've seen at least half a dozen very public hazings to new frat members, and that's personally. Again, it's nice to know that there are colleges, and by extension fraternities that are more rule bound, but in my experience, it's rare.

Why go Greek? Some of the reasons you said not to list are some of the reasons why a young man/women would join. There is actual value in Greek life, my fraternity prides itself on leadership, with various leadership courses and oppurtunities to lead fundraisers. Fundraisers might seem a joke to you but we take them very seriously, infact we just raised a little over 3 grand for a womens shelter. When your primary donators are broke college students thats something to be proud of. We also do other community volunteer work, like homeless shelter work. I'm not trying to say we our Gods gift to philanthropy but we also do way more then your average college student.

Again, all of your examples pertain to YOUR school, and YOUR fraternity. It's nice that yours does good community works, but even you are willing to admit of the illicit activities that go on in your frat, that makes those positive efforts feel rather...well showy.

Ignoring the betterment of the community there is also the most obvious reason: brotherhood. It might seem silly, but you really do have to experience it to understand it. Going camping/fishing/hunting with your brothers on the weekend or to the beach on spring break or just having a group of people that will show up if you are in a car accident or just there for you when you need it is something that alot of people don't have.

This is the only (if not somewhat) valid claim I feel you've laid. Many frat boys that I've met talk of a similar feeling of familial bond to their "brothers". And thats great, but it's one of the few positives that doesn't immediately bring in a counter argument.

1. Yes, and I have seen it. At the same time, I've never been drunk before.
2. Yes, but the guy who had brought them was shortly kicked out after that.
3. No, and I have never seen any brothers doing it. I have escorted a few women home though.
4. No, I never have. I'm sure a brother has at some point though. At the same time, a brother must keep the GPA requirement to stay in the fraternity.
5. No, not that has ever been to brought to my attention.

At the end of the day, if all you say is true (and I'm not assuming that it's not), good for you. You've found a good fraternity, or at the very least, a school committed to it's stringent policies regarding school affiliated programs.

But you can't gain leverage for frats everywhere because of the works of a single decent one. I've been around the block. I've known dozens of frat boys, I've been to many parties. I've seen the stereotypes of said organizations brought to light in more ways then I care to count, so you're not going to persuade me that this is all some big misunderstanding, because it really isn't.

 

[SaintAtilla]

As I am now entering my senior year on a college campus that is 60% greek I have a few thoughts on this issue, and let me start by saying that I am not a memeber of a fraternity. I believe that fraternities are not by definition bad. There are many frats that are very focused on the community and on academia, fraternities such as APO and Phi Beta Kappa. For those that don't know these fraternities they are a national service frat and national academic frat. Both of these are fraternities, but I would hardly say they are filled with "meat-headed duchebags." However, it is proven fact that members of fraternities and sororities have a much greater penchant for binge drinking and general debauchery. This issue hits home with me because at my school there have been two student deaths within the last two years. Both of these deaths were alcohol related and both students were fraternity pledges. It is difficult for me to understand this need that seems to exist in some fraternities to party and drink to the point of lethality.

 

[Panken]

Seldon, that is a very well worded arguement, but I will have to disagree with you.

1) You say fraternities hot bed of debauchary. Yes, people in fraternities drink, however you will be hard pressed to find an orginization at a college where people dont drink with each other. At my school, University of Memphis, the marching band throws parties that are way more intense than any frat party and the cops are called to those parties on a weekly basis. Even the christian orginizations go out to bars after they meet. People drink in college, that is all there is to it. Also, your "debauchary" you mentioned about the icy hot patch, that sounds more like jackassary than debauchary.

2) My fraternity does not ignore drug use. Hell, we have arranged interventions, psycologist and all, to come to the house and try to get people to stop, and when they did not we kicked their ass of property indefinately so they would not fuck us over.

3) The only reason people make such a big deal about fraternities and their interactions with the law is because we represent an orginization. Its like when a company gets convicted of money laundering or something. Its illegal and its an orginization. Next time you are watching the news, just look. When a company/government gets found of illegal activity the media reams the out, but when a single person gets arrested for the same thing they get just a :30 second spot.

4) Sexual harrassment. Dont you watch the news. People get sexually harrased every day and alot of those people are not in college! Sexual harrassment can happen outside of college and that is where it happens the majority of the time.

5) The idea of hearing only negative news about fraternities is simple. When is good news ever reported? Read the paper or watch the news. Its all bad news and when there is good news it only gets a 10 second mention at the end of the program. That is why you only hear bad news about fraternities.

6) If you take ANY Greek groups(males, females, black males, etc...) average GPA and compare their GPA to ANY Non-Greek groups average it will be higher.

7) Your belif in our ritiual involving drinking and sex could not be any further from the truth. You obviously have not actually talked to any greek about the traditions of their chapter or of their fraternity as a whole. Give it a shot, you might actually find that some fraternities have annual traditions that you might like.

1. Did you drink underage, or seen others in your frat (or within the premises)??
2. Have you ever done illicit substances in any context, or seen others on your frat's premises?
3. Have you ever hooked up with an intoxicated girl?
4. Do you, or any member of your frat get drunk and miss class?
5. Does your drinking and partying ever interfere with the lives of others who don't engage in such behavior?

1. Yes I did. So did everyone else I knew in college regardless of weather or not they were greek, except for those who could not based on their religion. Also, when people were drinking underage my borothers and I would look after them. We regulated their drinks and forced them not to drive. There was one instance when someone (age 21) was trying to drive drunk. Half of the chapter ran 3 blocks from a party to our house and we tackled him to the ground and stole his keys until he was sober enough to drive. Two people were injured in this instance because they were trying to hold the guy down.

2. I never did, and I have never seen anyone do drugs on our property. We kicked out the people who did do drugs and we dont tolerate any of that.

3. Yes, but she is my girlfriend. And yes, we were dating at the time. And my chapter is the king of cock-blocking. When we know someone is going to make a bad decision that they will regred or have possible legal consequences we cock-block the shit out of him and it works.

4. No. Plain and simple no. Our fraternity prides its self on scholarship and we go to class. We fine the shit out of people who skip.

5. Well, the fraternity houses at Memphis are located in a residental neighborhood located next to the university. So when there is music then yes. I would guess so, however all of the houses in the block where all the greeks are located are occupied by greeks, or other students.

 

[Inmate13]

I have yet to meet a Frat guy that wasn't a total meathead douchebag. By all means, prove me wrong.

Pleasure to meet you, my name's Jon, but my brothers call me Pirate.

 

[Sneaky Paladin]

I have yet to meet a Frat guy that wasn't a total meathead douchebag. By all means, prove me wrong.

Pleasure to meet you, my name's Jon, but my brothers call me Pirate.

Why do they call you pirate?

No seriously.........It's a weird name I want an explanation

 

[Ushario]

There's been a few attempts to get US-style fraternities started in Australia but they never get much of a foothold because the reputation of them is so disgusting, it's perceived as "that juvenile clubhouse stuff that American boys do - why would we want THAT here?". The whole concept of fraternities is seen here as very much against Australian cultural values, and people here look on fraternity members overseas with utter contempt and a sense of complete bewilderment. The concept that anything good could come out of a fraternity that couldn't be achieved in some other, more effecient manner, is totally laughable here. There's not even any public debate about it - everyone of all political, racial, academic and social persuasions in Australia is completely convinced that fraternities are stupid and unneccesary. It's one of the only things in Australia that academics all actually agree on.

Oh and in post 4 Seldon has made the single most insightful, intelligent and interesting post I have read in the entire history of me being a member of this forum.

Yes thank you for speaking for every single person in our nation. Not everyone agrees with you. I believe that fraternities are capable of having a positive impact on their communities and members. Most fraternities are probably just an excuse to get drunk and be a 'big man'.