There seems to still be a lingering concept that things guys do need to be "manly" or "not girly"

[DementedSheep]

Being overly emotional is a bad thing. Bad enough that girls act like "girls", don't encourage guys to sink to their level.

The vast majority of things target at girls are complete trash so I don't blame them for wanting to separate something they like from that group even though MLP is only marginally better than usual.

 

[Dizchu]

The greatest praise people often give to female friends is to say she's "like one of the guys". In either event, being male is what is associated with being better and being female with being worse.

Hmm, it does work the other way around though. Telling a woman that she "looks like a man" is considered one of the worst insults one can give a woman. It's interesting how insults towards men or women by comparing them to the opposite gender differs. It highlights how traditional gender roles give different ideals for masculinity and femininity.

Basically if you're a man, you better be independent, emotionally distant and strong! If you're a woman, you better look nice and know your place!

 

[The Lunatic]

Men being told not to complain and remain stoic is not related to the topic at hand whatsoever. Stoicism and complaining did not get mentioned in my OP. At all.

Please do not derail my thread.

So, you're saying you don't see any cross over between men being told to be stoic and male characters being portray in media as stoic?

"Manly crying" is "Manly crying" because it's regarded as an acceptable way to show emotion for a male. Only a certain times, within certain conditions, because emotion is something a lot of men are taught not to show unless in very certain situations.

This is re-enforced by men being mocked for standing up for their own rights, as standing up for one's rights is a displaying of emotion.

 

[Erttheking]

Being overly emotional is a bad thing. Bad enough that girls act like "girls", don't encourage guys to sink to their level.

The vast majority of things target at girls are complete trash so I don't blame them for wanting to separate something they like from that group even though MLP is only marginally better than usual.

There's a difference between being overemotional and not being ashamed to show any kind of emotional vulnerability. A still deal with pangs of depression in my life and I still feel like I'm being a whore for attention when I try and seek help for it, even though I know I shouldn't. If I had lived in another part of the world there's a chance I never would've gotten the help I needed because I would've been told to suck it up. So I think I will keep encouraging guys to "sink to their level".

Sturgeon's Law applies to male entertainment as much as it does female entertainment. Call of Duty/Transformers/the majority of the AAA gaming industry is evidence of that. It's just plain old insecurity.

 

[visiblenoise]

"I think this show is for little girls" =/= "you aren't a man for liking this show"

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I am talking about the way men act amongst other men. You seem more interested in talking about feminism, something I have no interest in taking over this thread. Because if it does, it'll be feminism thread #4102. And I think we all know how well those go.

I am not having this conversation. Make your own thread if you want to talk about it so badly. Good day sir.

 

[The Lunatic]

Snip

I am talking about the way men act amongst other men. You seem more interested in talking about feminism, something I have no interest in taking over this thread. Because if it does, it'll be feminism thread #4102. And I think we all know how well those go.

I am not having this conversation. Make your own thread if you want to talk about it so badly. Good day sir.

Ah yes, the good old prejudice of "Any man who mentions rights is talking about feminism". I've mentioned it briefly in one post.

Please, how about you actually listen to what men have to say rather than immediately branding them for display their thoughts on things? After all, if we are to encourage men to "open up" more, perhaps not immediately assuming they're blaming women for something would way of going about it, yes?

I never really got the notion that men somehow act completely different around other men compared to how they act around women. Any lack of emotion displayed between male friends is just as likely to be carried to female friends, so, I'm not particularly sure of your reasoning to put it down to "I want to talk only about men and their interactions with other men".

The idea in society that men aren't allowed to stand up for their own rights has very little to do with feminism. There are those in that movement who oppose it greatly, however, it is an aspect of general society too. Men cannot stand up for their rights around other men, and are sometimes even physically attacked for doing so. Nor can they do so around women.

 

[DementedSheep]

Being overly emotional is a bad thing. Bad enough that girls act like "girls", don't encourage guys to sink to their level.

The vast majority of things target at girls are complete trash so I don't blame them for wanting to separate something they like from that group even though MLP is only marginally better than usual.

There's a difference between being overemotional and not being ashamed to show any kind of emotional vulnerability. A still deal with pangs of depression in my life and I still feel like I'm being a whore for attention when I try and seek help for it, even though I know I shouldn't. If I had lived in another part of the world there's a chance I never would've gotten the help I needed because I would've been told to suck it up. So I think I will keep encouraging guys to "sink to their level".

Sturgeon's Law applies to male entertainment as much as it does female entertainment. Call of Duty/Transformers/the majority of the AAA gaming industry is evidence of that. It's just plain old insecurity.

Honesty? You should deal with depression on your own otherwise it's not enough that you can't handle your own emotions you don't even have enough pride to keep that to yourself and you have to burden others with it.

A lot of male targeted entertainment is shit but almost all female target entertainment is.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

The exactly one post you made before I asked you to not derail the thread. I'm not apologizing for having a very legitimate concern.

I am listening to what you have to say. You don't seem to be very interested in what I have to say. Blaming women? Please, tell me, when did I say anything even vaguely to that degree? "You seem more interested in talking about feminism?" For that to even work it would have to run off of the basis that all feminists are women, that I was accusing you of blaming them for something, and that I was "branding" you. Since when is asking someone to not derail a thread "branding"? I'm not asking you to not talk about this at all. I'm asking you not to do it in an area where I'm trying to talk about something else. In concision, don't accuse someone of not listening when you then go off and accuse them of saying things they clearly didn't say. It's very hypocritical.

Well, I did. I frankly felt more comfortable showing my emotions around females in my life then males. Don't feel comfortable showing my emotions to my father, have no problems doing it with my Mom. And frankly this is just more proof that what I wanted to talk about as stated in the OP and what you want to talk about are two entirely different things.

Well ok then. Fair enough. Still isn't related to what I want to talk about in the slightest. Like, I said, if you really want to talk about this, make your own thread. Odds are I'll even get involved. But this thread isn't about that.

And this conversation is over. It's derailing the thread. I'm sorry if I said anything that upset you or could be interpreted in a way that would upset you. Heck, honestly I'd be interested in debating about this over PM. But this conversation is derailing the thread.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

This is what I don't understand about this idea: anyone who decides they are going to go against cultural norms is chock-full of confidence and sure of themselves, anyone who goes with cultural norms couldn't possibly be doing it because it's what they want, they must be insecure and un-confident.

Of course things like misogyny and homophobia are about insecurity, because they involve unnecessary suspicion and scrutiny of others for your own (perceived) benefit.

Except that's precisely what we're doing right now. 'This person is behaving in this manner that I don't like, therefore they must be ________.' And claiming that this person acts different from what I approve of and therefore must be insecure and unconfident is working for your own perceived benefit, because if they behave this way and are insecure, and I do the opposite, therefore I'm secure.

In essence, we're incapable of understanding why someone believes what they do, therefore they must be doing it to make up for something.

Another small example: I love guns, own a bunch of them and shoot them. It's fun. But according to some people, anyone who owns lots of guns is just 'compensating'. Why do they say that? Because they are incapable of understanding why someone would enjoy that activity, so therefore they must convince themselves that no one REALLY enjoys doing this, they just do it because they are insecure about themselves. You'll see similar things with hunting, or playing certain sports, or video games, or a whole mess of other things.

Ultimately, if someone is misogynistic or homophobic or racist or whatever, those are still terrible qualities, but I just hate the idea that we believe we know exactly why someone believes something, when the only person who really knows what they are thinking is the person doing the thinking.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Honesty? You should deal with depression on your own otherwise it's not enough that you can't handle your own emotions you don't even have enough pride to keep that to yourself and you have to burden others with it.

This is actually a good example of what sort of thing that we're trying to break down. I mean, depression is kind of a big deal and encouraging people to suck it up and deal with it on their own instead of getting help is one of the big reasons men have problems with depression.

 

[Redryhno]

Being overly emotional is a bad thing. Bad enough that girls act like "girls", don't encourage guys to sink to their level.

The vast majority of things target at girls are complete trash so I don't blame them for wanting to separate something they like from that group even though MLP is only marginally better than usual.

There's a difference between being overemotional and not being ashamed to show any kind of emotional vulnerability. A still deal with pangs of depression in my life and I still feel like I'm being a whore for attention when I try and seek help for it, even though I know I shouldn't. If I had lived in another part of the world there's a chance I never would've gotten the help I needed because I would've been told to suck it up. So I think I will keep encouraging guys to "sink to their level".

Sturgeon's Law applies to male entertainment as much as it does female entertainment. Call of Duty/Transformers/the majority of the AAA gaming industry is evidence of that. It's just plain old insecurity.

But...that's not being open to having emotions, that's recognizing a problem and attempting to correct it. Other parts of the world you might not have been able to get the help, but I seriously doubt it would have much(if any) to do with being ashamed of showing emotion and quite a bit more to do with living in a country devoid of modern medicine.

I was some kind of mix of bored, apathetic, and depressed through alot of high school, didn't ask for professional help because A) I had no desire to cause my family anymore financial troubles than we already had, B) assumed it was just some weird hormonal problem that would sort itself out, and C) I'm a private person and I don't think excessive or extreme emotional displays in public are needed nor wanted, if I want to express my emotions, I'll do it around people I actually like and know me, or in my house alone. Otherwise it's mostly a waste of time that I can work through at my own pace. But that's me.

And seriously, if you think you're being a whore for attention for getting professional help, maybe stop telling people? Or you know, bring it up at the help you're paying for, that's kinda what they're there for.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

A true story best illustrates my view:

A man in his forties once broke his arm. For his cast, he asked the doctor for a fiberglass wrapping featuring a motif of pink and purple teddy bears on a white background. No one who knew this man said anything to challenge his "manliness." However, a few strangers throughout his recovery did choose to stare, laugh, and even quietly mock him behind his back for his choice. Thankfully for those that mocked him, this man chose to either ignore or forgive them. People such as them could not bring this man down, as he was confident, not in some vague idea of manliness, but just in who he was as a person.

The man's name is not important, but what is important is knowing who he is: In the past he grew up on the wrong side of Las Vegas, he was exposed to heavy gang activity as a teen, eventually he was pressured to join a gang. After he survived being stabbed on two separate occasions, and being shot in the chest once, he decided to go straight, and began a career in martial arts teaching. Between then and the time when he broke his arm, he earned seven stripes on his black belt, commendations from numerous police agencies nationwide for assistance in training their officers, and several invitations to train at the (Northern) Shaolin Temple in Hunan Province, China. He had broken his arm by making a minor error while demonstrating how to break seven bricks with only your bare hands.

I saw a picture that had been taken of him while he wore the cast, and I asked him why he chose it. He replied dismissively, "I don't know, I just liked that one the most." And that is just it: it has nothing to do with whatever arbitrary definitions society may come up with for what is "manly" or not, and indeed, these definitions seem to shift frequently. Just be who you are, because if you are a man, then indeed there is no reason for you to act manly.

 

[Erttheking]

Being overly emotional is a bad thing. Bad enough that girls act like "girls", don't encourage guys to sink to their level.

The vast majority of things target at girls are complete trash so I don't blame them for wanting to separate something they like from that group even though MLP is only marginally better than usual.

There's a difference between being overemotional and not being ashamed to show any kind of emotional vulnerability. A still deal with pangs of depression in my life and I still feel like I'm being a whore for attention when I try and seek help for it, even though I know I shouldn't. If I had lived in another part of the world there's a chance I never would've gotten the help I needed because I would've been told to suck it up. So I think I will keep encouraging guys to "sink to their level".

Sturgeon's Law applies to male entertainment as much as it does female entertainment. Call of Duty/Transformers/the majority of the AAA gaming industry is evidence of that. It's just plain old insecurity.

Honesty? You should deal with depression on your own otherwise it's not enough that you can't handle your own emotions you don't even have enough pride to keep that to yourself and you have to burden others with it.

A lot of male targeted entertainment is shit but almost all female target entertainment is.

Yeah no. No, no no no no. That line "you should deal with it on your own" makes it very clear to me that you have no experience with depression and that you frankly are poorly informed on it. You don't just get over it, which is what you seem to be implying that I should do. It just doesn't work that way. Do some research on a topic before you dictate how people should be reacting to it. Pride? Buddy...I don't care about pride. If you can't have friends that you can rely on, can't go to them with your problems...well..what good are they then?

Question. Have you delved into it? Looked at it in depth?

 

[The Bucket]

Snip

The exactly one post you made before I asked you to not derail the thread. I'm not apologizing for having a very legitimate concern.

I am listening to what you have to say. You don't seem to be very interested in what I have to say. Blaming women? Please, tell me, when did I say anything even vaguely to that degree? "You seem more interested in talking about feminism?" For that to even work it would have to run off of the basis that all feminists are women, that I was accusing you of blaming them for something, and that I was "branding" you. Since when is asking someone to not derail a thread "branding"? I'm not asking you to not talk about this at all. I'm asking you not to do it in an area where I'm trying to talk about something else. In concision, don't accuse someone of not listening when you then go off and accuse them of saying things they clearly didn't say. It's very hypocritical.

Well, I did. I frankly felt more comfortable showing my emotions around females in my life then males. Don't feel comfortable showing my emotions to my father, have no problems doing it with my Mom. And frankly this is just more proof that what I wanted to talk about as stated in the OP and what you want to talk about are two entirely different things.

Well ok then. Fair enough. Still isn't related to what I want to talk about in the slightest. Like, I said, if you really want to talk about this, make your own thread. Odds are I'll even get involved. But this thread isn't about that.

And this conversation is over.

You're trying to thread police super hard from where i'm standing. You might not want to talk about it, but it does seem more than reasonably related to the topic (it seems to be discussing symptons or causes for the phenomena you talked about). Instead of trying to quash branches you dont approve of, it'd probably be better to discuss the aspects that interest you more independently.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

The topic itself I'm not against, but the way it was presented initially had me concerned that things were going to be royally derailed as a result. And even then I feel like the path he's going down isn't really related to the OP. He wants to talk about how men aren't allowed to stand up for their rights, where as I want to focus more on how a lot of men seem insecure about doing things that aren't manly. There's some connection but overall I feel like they're two really different topics, and frankly the second topic deserves its own thread, mainly because two topics like that sharing the same thread would most likely cause a lack of attention to one of them, resulting in it not being explored. Could I have handled it a thousand times better? Yes. I still feel like it's off-topic.

 

[Dizchu]

In essence, we're incapable of understanding why someone believes what they do, therefore they must be doing it to make up for something.

Okay I'll try to explain what I mean. If you are actually confident, you wouldn't get so upset at being called a girl or being called gay and you wouldn't feel as much of a need to constantly assert your masculinity and heterosexuality. If you simply like traditionally "masculine" things (in your case, guns), that's not the same as proudly exclaiming "wow you guys, look at how manly I am. I am totally not girly at all, honest".

 

[apollogon]

You've already made up your mind. Your talking to people who have also already made up their mind. If you wanted to find people who agreed with you, this might not be the way to do it. By the way, the reason you get people like DementedSheep think that depression is dealing with sad emotions is thanks to doctors over-diagnosing drugs for depression. They never learn about hormonal imbalances making it impossible to escape.

The reason things like "manly tears" exist is because crying is seen as negatively weak. My understanding of it is historical, cultural & genetic. Historical (possibly genetic) because warriors bawling their eyes out are gonna die against some stoic romans. Cultural (possibly historic) because of honour codes and pride. Genetics (possibly cultural) because of the masculine ideals set by heroes of old. It's probably quite interchangeable.

You're not going to get a reasonably simple answer because there's no one answer. Not to mention the reasons vary wildly across continents. Remember that you're likely the exception here.

 

[DementedSheep]

Being overly emotional is a bad thing. Bad enough that girls act like "girls", don't encourage guys to sink to their level.

The vast majority of things target at girls are complete trash so I don't blame them for wanting to separate something they like from that group even though MLP is only marginally better than usual.

There's a difference between being overemotional and not being ashamed to show any kind of emotional vulnerability. A still deal with pangs of depression in my life and I still feel like I'm being a whore for attention when I try and seek help for it, even though I know I shouldn't. If I had lived in another part of the world there's a chance I never would've gotten the help I needed because I would've been told to suck it up. So I think I will keep encouraging guys to "sink to their level".

Sturgeon's Law applies to male entertainment as much as it does female entertainment. Call of Duty/Transformers/the majority of the AAA gaming industry is evidence of that. It's just plain old insecurity.

Honesty? You should deal with depression on your own otherwise it's not enough that you can't handle your own emotions you don't even have enough pride to keep that to yourself and you have to burden others with it.

A lot of male targeted entertainment is shit but almost all female target entertainment is.

Yeah no. No, no no no no. That line "you should deal with it on your own" makes it very clear to me that you have no experience with depression and that you frankly are poorly informed on it. You don't just get over it, which is what you seem to be implying that I should do. It just doesn't work that way. Do some research on a topic before you dictate how people should be reacting to it. Pride? Buddy...I don't care about pride. If you can't have friends that you can rely on, can't go to them with your problems...well..what good are they then?

Question. Have you delved into it? Looked at it in depth?

"You don't agree therefore you have no experience". I'm going to break one of my own rules since it actually relevant to this conversation but I do have issues with being depress and I was also dealing with suicidally depressed friend all through high school when I was young and stupid enough to put up with it. The difference is I recognise that depression is huge failing on my part, shouldn't involve anyone else and certainly should not be a problem for the people I'm friends with. If you can't deal with it and get over it on your own you deserve the fallout from it.

 

[Erttheking]

Being overly emotional is a bad thing. Bad enough that girls act like "girls", don't encourage guys to sink to their level.

The vast majority of things target at girls are complete trash so I don't blame them for wanting to separate something they like from that group even though MLP is only marginally better than usual.

There's a difference between being overemotional and not being ashamed to show any kind of emotional vulnerability. A still deal with pangs of depression in my life and I still feel like I'm being a whore for attention when I try and seek help for it, even though I know I shouldn't. If I had lived in another part of the world there's a chance I never would've gotten the help I needed because I would've been told to suck it up. So I think I will keep encouraging guys to "sink to their level".

Sturgeon's Law applies to male entertainment as much as it does female entertainment. Call of Duty/Transformers/the majority of the AAA gaming industry is evidence of that. It's just plain old insecurity.

Honesty? You should deal with depression on your own otherwise it's not enough that you can't handle your own emotions you don't even have enough pride to keep that to yourself and you have to burden others with it.

A lot of male targeted entertainment is shit but almost all female target entertainment is.

Yeah no. No, no no no no. That line "you should deal with it on your own" makes it very clear to me that you have no experience with depression and that you frankly are poorly informed on it. You don't just get over it, which is what you seem to be implying that I should do. It just doesn't work that way. Do some research on a topic before you dictate how people should be reacting to it. Pride? Buddy...I don't care about pride. If you can't have friends that you can rely on, can't go to them with your problems...well..what good are they then?

Question. Have you delved into it? Looked at it in depth?

"You don' agree therefore you have no experience". I'm going to break one of my own rules since it actually relevant to this conversation but I do have issues with depression and I was also dealing with suicidally depressed friend all through high school when I was young and stupid enough to put up with it. The difference is I recognise that depression is huge failing on my part, shouldn't involve anyone else and certainly should not be a problem for the people I'm friends with. If you can't deal with it and get over it on your own you deserve the fallout from it.

No, you're saying something that's 100% wrong, therefore you have no experience. Pretty big difference. You were stupid enough to put up with it? What should you have done differently? Tell them to suck it up and left them alone? Because if they truly were suicidally depressed, I imagine they would've hung themselves. And according to you that would've been THEIR fault. Honestly, what you're doing is victim blaming at its finest. No, that's what you're saying. If you have emotional issues, suck if up and deal with it by yourself, otherwise you deserve all the bad things that happened to you. I talked to my mother about my problems, I talked to my friends. I set up a support net, I talk to my friends about my problems, they talk to me about their problems. I take pills. And you know what happened? I got better. Not because I "dealt with it" because I got help.

And according to you I should've just let myself stay depressed and suffered whatever consequences came from me not addressing my problem. Possibly including suicide. Because my friends and family shouldn't have actually cared about me. So yeah, you do have experience with it, I was wrong on that. Here's the thing though. You didn't learn a single thing from it.