These forums have some serious issues with JRPGs. And it's time to address them.

[Rathy]

I personally find it halarious when a company complains that Japanese roleplaying games never embrace innovation while they steal one of the best mechanics from a recent JRPG hit (the Gambit system), change the name (Tactics), and stick it in their own game.

I'M LOOKING AT YOU BIOWARE

Just as a quick point here, Bioware has actually been using that system since Baldur's Gate 2. For Windows 98. Just saying. It just didn't have a nice menu.

As for jRPGs, I do agree with the idea of a bit of stagnation myself, especially in the mainstream titles. I myself like jRPGs, but I've moved away from them a bit recently, mostly because I find most of the good ones are the old ones.

I once talked to a friend, of whom hated jRPGs, especially Final Fantasy. He actually was the person who got me to try Final Fantasy 3, for its great setup and characters. His response to any other title is just that it feels like too much of a rehash, in story and characters. Which I find kind of true. Especially after the character descriptions for Final Fantasy 13, from the producers no less, came out as wanting a female version of Cloud. Though this only covers one series.

As for me, I find quite a few decent series still. Right now I'm on a Kingdom Hearts binge, but I've easily come to the point that the series isn't for everyone. Xenogears and the Xenosaga series have great story, and 1 and 3 have decent game play, albeit a bit slow. The World Ends with You is a great jRPG, fast paced, and good characters if you can get through the first quarter of the game(Which I know can be a bit much for some). Final Fantasy Tactics(The PS one and PSP) has great character involved story, and is an sRPG as well, for people of that crowd.

The main problem as I see it, reading here and from experience, is the lack of choice though. They are like storybooks, or a movie. But I think any RPG is in the end. Its pretty recent that decisions made in western RPGs have actually had proper influence as well. As opposed to just changing up a small portion of the RPG, and then returning to normal afterwards.

 

[Nomanslander]

[HEADING=1]Stop the blind hatred.[/HEADING]
[HEADING=3]Some poster in every JRPG thread: "lol, JRPGs. They suck."[/HEADING] ^They will likely show up in this topic before long.^

Look, I'm not going to try and convert you, as I don't really want to. I just want to stop the ignorant bashing of a genre. JRPGs have slipped into decline in the past years, and I've given up on most of them. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE ALL THE SAME. Like any genre, it has it's good games and it's bad games. You can't dismiss a whole genre just because you played a few Final Fantasy games and hated them. Or because you played a few Dragon Quest/Dragon Warrior games and hated them.

Do you hate all FPS games because you don't like Halo/Call of Duty (which are supposed to represent the most popular of their genre, as Final Fantasy is supposed to represent the most popular of JRPGs)? Probably not. It's about the game, not the genre.

1. Female looking men:

That's only mostly in Square Enix games. I'm sick of people thinking that all JRPGs are Square Enix games.

2. Turn based combat:

In recent years, JRPGs have tried to get away from that, but as an example of how to make turn based combat feel fast-paced, see Grandia...Where you and the enemy can cancel each other's turns by disrupting one another, and different moves took longer to execute, plus you had to move to the enemy to attack (the game automatically moves you towards your target).

Examples of major releases that aren't turn based: Eternal Sonata (you control directly when turn comes up), Star Ocean: The Last Hope, Infinite Undiscovery, Tales of Vesperia, Tales of Symphonia 2, V Chronicles (you control directly when turn comes up), The World Ends With You, Kingdom Hearts 39539854321865916901/21851985 days, Final Fantasy 12, FF12: Revanent Wings, Blue Dragon Plus

Examples of turn based combat in recent years from big name releases: Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Persona. That's it. They're really trying to get away from it, with real time battles that you can pause to give orders when you want to.

3. Story's lame:

You're kidding, right? JRPGs are known for their sweeping stories. You just don't have any choice over it. Well, there are a ton of cliches, but what isn't cliched at this point? Otherwise, TV Tropes [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeBrilliance] wouldn't exist. They also tend to have FANTASTIC soundtracks [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/view-from-the-road/6935-A-View-From-The-Road-Play-It-Again-Sam].

4. Not really Role-Playing if you can't make choices

I thought that RPGs were about leveling up, not moral choices.

Example: When they say a game has "RPG elements", that doesn't mean moral choices have been added to the game. That means they've added a leveling system of some sort. Like the stat bars in GTA: San Andreas.

Edit: Some JRPGs do have moral choices, just few and far between, like Chrono Cross and the whole

Spoiler

Save Kid thing, which determines who can join you later on, cutting off about 10 characters depending on your choice.

Welcome to the Yahtzee forums...=P

 

[shadow skill]

I say people just need to stop playing FF games and try other series.

 

[EMFCRACKSHOT]

I don't have anything against JRPGs' i just never really gave them a chance. They just haven't tickled my fancy as of yet. Maybe someday????????????

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

... Yet when you actually read what you posted ...

Sometimes I wish you would. Apart from disagreeing with Wikipedia (Which you haven't edited), the OED, and Jacob. L. Moreno (who invented the phrase), you're arguing your own opinion without referring to any of the sources who back you up.

I mean, fair play if you want to take your definition as the meaningful one, but when you're telling the inventor what he means, I do have to take a little umbrage.

At what point in Half-Life do you change your behaviour to fit the social role of Mr Freeman, to whit, by being mute?

 

[shadow skill]

You take on the role of Gordon Freeman by playing the game itself. You take on the role of Geralt by playing the game. That is the behavioral modification so even cthen it still fits the OED's defintion which is the least detailed of all of the definitions I have found for the term role play which come from The American Heritage, Webster's and Dictionary.com dictionaries. Dictionary.com is nice in that it lists where they culled their definitions from so I don't have to track down the individual sites on my own. Here is the link:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/role-play

Before I forget here is superordinate:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/superordinate

That Gordon Freeman is a terrible character does not take away from the fact that his role is the one you assume in the game. You still act out the role of gun toting scientist. Team Fortress as someone else mentioned is an even better example since the character classes all have defined roles and the team dynamic forces players to adopt different roles based on the chosen class.

 

[Heart of Darkness]

However, I will disagree with your implication in your original post that a turn-based system is flawed (at least, that's what I inferred. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). I mean, Golden Sun was turn based, and it's battle system worked well. Especially considering some of the late-game optional bosses in The Lost Age would rape you without a strategy.

You misunderstood, I don't believe that its flawed in the least, in fact, I prefer it. But this site and indeed, even some people in this topic seems to believe that ALL jrpgs are turn-based.

Ah. Well then, pardon me for my transgression. Only so much can be gleaned from text itself.

And yeah, I've noticed that, too. It's like saying every first-person shooter has space marines...

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

However, I will disagree with your implication in your original post that a turn-based system is flawed (at least, that's what I inferred. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). I mean, Golden Sun was turn based, and it's battle system worked well. Especially considering some of the late-game optional bosses in The Lost Age would rape you without a strategy.

You misunderstood, I don't believe that its flawed in the least, in fact, I prefer it. But this site and indeed, even some people in this topic seems to believe that ALL jrpgs are turn-based.

Ah. Well then, pardon me for my transgression. Only so much can be gleaned from text itself.

And yeah, I've noticed that, too. It's like saying every first-person shooter has space marines...

That's what Call of Duty needs to do! Go into space!

 

[DracoSuave]

As for jRPGs, I do agree with the idea of a bit of stagnation myself, especially in the mainstream titles. I myself like jRPGs, but I've moved away from them a bit recently, mostly because I find most of the good ones are the old ones.

I find this absolutely funny tho. No western market has bothered to come out with Valkyria Chronicles. None would have -dared- to create Demon's Souls. These games are so completely unlike anything out there that you'd have to be ignorant in order to say that this generation, all jRPGs are the same.

I mean, really, what is the sample size here? Again, I claim they're comparing Final Fantasy 7 to Final Fantasy 7 and being blissfully stupid when they discover they're the same game.

I once talked to a friend, of whom hated jRPGs, especially Final Fantasy. He actually was the person who got me to try Final Fantasy 3, for its great setup and characters. His response to any other title is just that it feels like too much of a rehash, in story and characters.

Now, while I'll admit that there's similiarities between Final Fantasy 7 and 8 and 10 in terms of common themes of character design, as well as between 1-6 and 9... I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it is probably because in those two sets, it's the same artist doing it.

As for similiarities in characterization... when does Cloud get repeated? Who is the expy for Zidane? Who the hell acts the same as Cyan?

The comparisons between characters and stories aren't as blatant, as say... Oblivion to Fallout, or Dragon Age to KOTOR to Jade Empire to....

Which I find kind of true. Especially after the character descriptions for Final Fantasy 13, from the producers no less, came out as wanting a female version of Cloud. Though this only covers one series.

Cloud: A child who left town to become a man, failed to achieve his dream, and while under the effects of incredible mental trauma and the infection of a Cosmic Horror's skingrafts, deludes himself into thinking he was the SOLDIER he never earned the right to be. He hits things with a rediculous sword.

Lightning: A woman who watched her sister die because of the intervention of deified crystaline beings called fal'Cie, bitter and angry, is set upon the same path herself by said beings. Her choice? Disobey the fal'Cie and turn into a horrible monster who can never be put out of her miserable existance, or obey and be eternally petrified. She hits things with a rediculous sword.

Yeah. [sarcasm]TOTALLY the same character[/sarcasm]. Don't confuse 'equips a sword' with 'has the same characterization.'

As for me, I find quite a few decent series still. Right now I'm on a Kingdom Hearts binge, but I've easily come to the point that the series isn't for everyone. Xenogears and the Xenosaga series have great story, and 1 and 3 have decent game play, albeit a bit slow. The World Ends with You is a great jRPG, fast paced, and good characters if you can get through the first quarter of the game(Which I know can be a bit much for some). Final Fantasy Tactics(The PS one and PSP) has great character involved story, and is an sRPG as well, for people of that crowd.

No argument here. There's some jRPGs that are -great-. And there are some that are terrible. And some in between. And it's exactly the same with wRPGs. And they all have the same basic flaws.

wRPGs can really suck... don't pick up Shadow Madness. Ever.

The main problem as I see it, reading here and from experience, is the lack of choice though. They are like storybooks, or a movie. But I think any RPG is in the end. Its pretty recent that decisions made in western RPGs have actually had proper influence as well. As opposed to just changing up a small portion of the RPG, and then returning to normal afterwards.

The problem is that a lot of wRPGs are plagued with the bugbear of -meaningless- choice. Now, BioWare manages to avoid this quite nicely, and I applaud them for that... but look at Oblivion. Seriously. You can choose to do -anything- and not a single decision you make matters beyond the minor inconveniences of having guards approach you or not.

 

[Rathy]

I find this absolutely funny tho. No western market has bothered to come out with Valkyria Chronicles. None would have -dared- to create Demon's Souls. These games are so completely unlike anything out there that you'd have to be ignorant in order to say that this generation, all jRPGs are the same.

I mean, really, what is the sample size here? Again, I claim they're comparing Final Fantasy 7 to Final Fantasy 7 and being blissfully stupid when they discover they're the same game.

Can't argue much here. I'm behind on consoles, and much of my experience is back on PS2 and the DS. I definitely do have interest in titles mentioned here. Maybe should have mentioned that.

Cloud: A child who left town to become a man, failed to achieve his dream, and while under the effects of incredible mental trauma and the infection of a Cosmic Horror's skingrafts, deludes himself into thinking he was the SOLDIER he never earned the right to be. He hits things with a rediculous sword.

Lightning: A woman who watched her sister die because of the intervention of deified crystaline beings called fal'Cie, bitter and angry, is set upon the same path herself by said beings. Her choice? Disobey the fal'Cie and turn into a horrible monster who can never be put out of her miserable existance, or obey and be eternally petrified. She hits things with a rediculous sword.

Yeah. [sarcasm]TOTALLY the same character[/sarcasm]. Don't confuse 'equips a sword' with 'has the same characterization.'

I pull this not from experience. I pull this from an interview with the producer:

"We can't tell you all the details, unfortunately. Looking at the history of the FF series, there were already female main characters, like in FFVI, FFX, and FFX-2. This time, one of the characteristics of this heroine is that she's not that feminine. I tried to make her someone very strong, independent. When I asked Mr. Nomura to design this character, I requested someone like a female version of Cloud from FFVII."

Source: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3151333

Thats what gets on my nerves.

The problem is that a lot of wRPGs are plagued with the bugbear of -meaningless- choice. Now, BioWare manages to avoid this quite nicely, and I applaud them for that... but look at Oblivion. Seriously. You can choose to do -anything- and not a single decision you make matters beyond the minor inconveniences of having guards approach you or not.

And this is I guess what I was trying to say. Compared to jRPGs, there is almost no difference. Bioware steps outside fairly nicely, and Fable does make some attempts, but otherwise its all the same. The other thing wRPGs do decently is open roaming, which jRPGs are a bit more negligent to do, at least not until late in the game. But I've found that it was really nice for my first game with this(Fallout 3), and from there it just feels a bit tedious, to where its just not as special anymore.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

The problem is that a lot of wRPGs are plagued with the bugbear of -meaningless- choice. Now, BioWare manages to avoid this quite nicely, and I applaud them for that... but look at Oblivion. Seriously. You can choose to do -anything- and not a single decision you make matters beyond the minor inconveniences of having guards approach you or not.

And this is I guess what I was trying to say. Compared to jRPGs, there is almost no difference. Bioware steps outside fairly nicely, and Fable does make some attempts, but otherwise its all the same. The other thing wRPGs do decently is open roaming, which jRPGs are a bit more negligent to do, at least not until late in the game. But I've found that it was really nice for my first game with this(Fallout 3), and from there it just feels a bit tedious, to where its just not as special anymore.

The problem with this is: Why the fuck does every RPG have to be open? Do you know how much time you spend wandering around mindlessly in Morrowind (great fucking game), having the monotony broken only by a sudden Cliff Racer attack? At least JRPGs don't waste time making you chug from dungeon to dungeon, they just send you to the dungeon, rather than making you travel for 20 minutes.

 

[mr Awsome]

there was a level up system in fallout and i REALLY dont consider fallout an RPG in any way.... at all...

You don't conside Fallout an RPG? Are you just trolling or are you really that stupid?

lol i just dont consider it an RPG because it was so good and i dont normally like RPGs that much..fallout 3 i mean... and i would never use the word troll to describe someone who "doesnt know that theyre talking about". its just really stupid

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

there was a level up system in fallout and i REALLY dont consider fallout an RPG in any way.... at all...

You don't conside Fallout an RPG? Are you just trolling or are you really that stupid?

lol i just dont consider it an RPG because it was so good and i dont normally like RPGs that much..fallout 3 i mean... and i would never use the word troll to describe someone who "doesnt know that theyre talking about". its just really stupid

That a really bad reason not to call it an RPG. Because you don't usually like RPGs, you prefer to not think of it as one?

 

[mr Awsome]

there was a level up system in fallout and i REALLY dont consider fallout an RPG in any way.... at all...

You don't conside Fallout an RPG? Are you just trolling or are you really that stupid?

lol i just dont consider it an RPG because it was so good and i dont normally like RPGs that much..fallout 3 i mean... and i would never use the word troll to describe someone who "doesnt know that theyre talking about". its just really stupid

That a really bad reason not to call it an RPG. Because you don't usually like RPGs, you prefer to not think of it as one?

why was i asked the same question twice by two people even though i already gave an answer?....

 

[GundamSentinel]

The problem with JRPG stories (or that of any Japanese game) is that the way the story is told is so typically Japanese. You either like it or you don't, same for anime. Japanese stories are often drawn out and lack the clarity of western games, but I like that. You don't need to spell everything out. Stories like those of for example Fallout 3 or Halo can by contrast annoy me greatly because of the straightforward and obvious line (though that doesn't make the bad games). On both sides of the fence there are great games. I love FF, but I love Oblivion as well.

 

[Mrsoupcup]

Snipeth

I see were your coming from since you are a fan of said games, I don't hate JRPGs I just well.... Dislike them. All the characters have an Uncanny valley sort of effect and the voicee acting (Weather Japenese or in English) has a cheasy quality to it. I guess thats the style, but its not just that the music really grinds of me a while. (I mostly listen to Classic rock so you have me there) Also the way the girls are shown pisses me of. Why? Well they a have big jugs and a perfect body, and very often act very.... slutty.... while every character in said games are all either Asian or White. I'm not saying the games are racist or whatever its just a byproduct of Japanese culture which I personally can't relate to. SINCEN I AM A LOGICAL PERSON AND NOT A TROLL, IF I REALLY DON'T ENJOY SOMTHING I DON'T PLAY IT OR PURCHASE IT, INSTEAD OF BULLY PEOPLE ONLINE WHO HAPPEN TO LIKE SAID THING. I did however have a weak spot for Phantasy Star Universe.

 

[Xvito]

If people don't like something, I just feel sorry for them (or not). Because that's one less thing they get to enjoy...

I like all kinds of games (although, obviously, not all games), except sports-games and music-games.

 

[Space Spoons]

Many of the users of this forum hate on JRPGs because Yahtzee hates on JRPGs. If you want to stop the mindless hate, you must first stop the mindless worship of the man in the hat... And we all know that's quite impossible.

Best to let them carry on and live your life as you normally would. Their stupidity isn't hurting anyone.

 

[Twad]

On the contrary, RPGs are supposed to be about role playing. Calling a level up system an ''RPG element'' is ignorance. Common ignorance, but ignorance none the less.

You got that right.

RPG isnt about leveling, XP, and whatever.. those are just tools used as a way to represent the character improving in some way, by using numbers in place of/to complement player skills.

 

[CmdrGoob]

Many of the users of this forum hate on JRPGs because Yahtzee hates on JRPGs. If you want to stop the mindless hate, you must first stop the mindless worship of the man in the hat... And we all know that's quite impossible.

Best to let them carry on and live your life as you normally would. Their stupidity isn't hurting anyone.

Ummm maybe you should read the thread and respond to the actual reasons people posted explaining why they don't like JRPGs instead of just accusing us of being 'mindless' and only hating them because of Yahtzee. That's pretty fucking insulting.

1) The writing. It's so often so unsubtle, long winded, preachy and cliched. The biggest problem is how unsubtle all the writing is, it makes everything else worse. For example, they'll try to have a reluctant/uncertain hero but go so overboard they'll make him a complete emo git. When they have a cute female character, they make them nauseatingly saccharine. When they want to show emotion, they write melodrama. If they want to get a plot point across, they'll write a terribly long winded exposition. If they want to make a moral point, be prepared for long winded preachy dialogue. The poor quality unsubtle writing makes every cliche 100% more aggravating and noticable than usual.

2) The lack of interactivity. It just gets so boring sitting there for so many overly long cutscenes and dialogues in which you have absolutely no input and no interaction. Gaming is an interactive medium. If I wanted to watch a movie, I'd watch a damn movie, and I certainly wouldn't watch a 30+ hour movie as poorly written as the average JRPG.

3) Grinding. Enough said.

4) Combat. There are many JRPG combat systems, and this is probably the least bad area, but still far to often the combat uses far to many bloody menus. Picking things out of menus does not make for compelling gameplay.

Edit: Bonus extra! Character design can sometimes be so horrible in JRPGs. Oh god why would you make a character look like a ridiculous twit before a word even comes out of their mouth? Vaan, Tidus, I'm looking in your directions.

There you go, there are the reasons I posted of why I don't like JRPGs. You'll notice 'Yahtzee doesn't like them' isn't one of them.