We, Australia, really need to get rid of our electoral system. This 'Mandatory 51%' of the vote rule has ensured we never get any decent leaders into power. Just the not-so-liberals and screw-the-workman labour.
Things about your country that make you hang your head in shame.
- Thread starter FROGGEman2
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This. People in the U.S. tend to get lazy when they think the government will just hand them things. That's why I am against the ridiculous idea of socialized medicine. It would just further the, "Fat, Lazy American," stereotype. We should be working and earning what we have!!!!Syvari said:
I want to revoke my previous statement and side with the two above... Yeah, our president has broken SO many promises already. He's becoming a joke almost as fast as 'ol Dubya. At least Bush took 8 years to run our debt up. Obama has had about 8 months, and at this rate...Thaius said:
As an American, I am ashamed at just how inefficiant our goverment is at getting anything done. It is surreal watching CSPAN and trying to make heads or tails of the endless slew of hearings and such. Sit in on one congressional hearing and it will make you want to prescribe ritalin to a glacier.
And what gives you the right to ridicule just because we function differently? Your way is not particularly perfect either, so why judge?yaik7a said:
Socialized medicine is NOT free to the people since you make up for it in taxes. I have heard from many citizens of countries with socialized medicine (Canada and the UK specifically), and I know that it has had some monumental failures as well. Surely you can admit that? Waiting lists/rationing, higher taxes, and maybe average healthcare (if prices are set based on the specialty of the physician by a guy in a cushy chair a thousand miles away) are the main complaints. That doesn't seem so great to me.
I, for one, am a college student, have a very limited income, and I on my meager (hourly) pay can afford GREAT health coverage for myself. Seriously... I've even got full dental coverage along with my health plan for about $147.65 a month, and that's NOT through my employer! I'm only average though, and I even have a slight heart murmur (which usually gets insurance companies up-in-arms).
All that is needed in the U.S. is to regulate the system we have, and it could work as close to flawlessly as possible. Three things need to happen.
1. It should be illegal to be denied coverage for an existing condition
2. It should be illegal to be dropped from a policy because of a condition that develops
3. Incentives could be offered to keep prices low, and competition amongst insurance providers would also keep prices down.
I don't believe health insurance is too pricy. I with my less than great income and college tution can afford it, it must not be that bad. I also have friends with some pretty serious pre-existing conditions who are able to get a decent price for their insurance as well, and it is working out fine for them as well.
People with socialized medicing don't seem to know enough about the American system to really know how it works. If you have lived with it, it's not so bad. I have had no trouble at all. I don't fear being without a doctor because I know that I will always have one - even on the system we have.
So yes, I stand by my statement.
EDIT: My roomate can say a LOT about the socialized systems that we already have in the U.S. Medicare only contributes about $0.50 when he needs it. Most socialized systems that we've tried either failed or are in the process of failing. Social security is running dry, and medicare and medicaid are never able to provide for everyone equally. I see no benefit.
the reason for the whole atomic bomb thing is that my country was the one that split the atom. funny thing is we are a completly nuclear free nation aswell.FROGGEman2 said:
In the UK we sure as fuck are not trying to make our system the same as yours. And 46 million people in your country beg to differ. The fact that someone like you who has enough money for health insurance should want to deny them of it should make you hang your head in shame, not that someone is trying to do something about it.Syvari said:
Erm, evidence? We are not. But everyone in our country gets healthcare when they need it.tsb247 said:
True. But people pay taxes proportional to their income. People do not pay healthcare premiums proportional to their income.
Again, its not perfect. But everyone gets it. And it is better than yours, since the United Kingdom and Canada both have higher life expectancy : http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Canada+Life+Expectancy+UK+Life+Expectancy+USA+Life+Expectancy+ .
Good for you. You don't stand anything to gain from a government health scheme. As a student with low income, you will pay marginally higher taxes. Remembering that overall GDP spending on health in the US is larger in the US than UK. Yet we have longer life expectancy...(in %GDP terms) What does that tell you?
Exactly. If you did have some condition that would push your premiums up, or that enabled your insurance company to deny you care when you needed it most, you would have a very different opinion.
[quoteAll that is needed in the U.S. is to regulate the system we have, and it could work as close to flawlessly as possible. Three things need to happen.
1. It should be illegal to be denied coverage for an existing condition
2. It should be illegal to be dropped from a policy because of a condition that develops
3. Incentives could be offered to keep prices low, and competition amongst insurance providers would also keep prices down.[/quote]
Admirable, but completely impossible. It is impossible to enforce regulations like these and ensure that the health insurance companies will remain profitable. There is a reason that the health insurance companies and lobbies are coming arouind to support Obama's plan. They know that he is not trying to muscle them out of business and his efforts to make healthcare more efficient will also benefit them.
Oh. I must not be all that bad! Thats just dandy. And you have some friends with "pretty serious" conditions! Here is some more anecdotal evidence for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ1lPPTPSR4
OMG! Those people didn't have to wait. Therefore canadian hospital waiting times cant be all that bad! No.
...So you support Obama's plans to reform them then?
Im sure that you have studied the government's stimulus package very carefully and are an economist. If not, shut up.leontyrone said:
I support reform, but Obama seems to be trying to re-invent the wheel. I do not support Obama's plans or ideas, but rather I see it as being better to reform and regulate the system we have. Sure it would not be easy, but it CAN be done.Steelfists said:
As an American I am a fan of regulated capitalism, and the notion that a person should work and pay for what they have out of their own pocket with as little government intervention as possible. Socialism is just not an American ideal. That is part of our culture which is based on the notion of a limited, representative government (although it appears others have interpreted the Constitution in different ways - Thus the problems that erupt). Sure, different people within the U.S. would (and probably will) dispute that, but that's a belief that a LOT of Americans appear to share. Limited government is the way of this nation, and that's how it was meant to be. If the founding fathers could see us now, they would be disgusted. We have regulations and red tape coming out of our ears, and it takes us millenia to accomplish anything. I love a comment that I read recently about wanting to give ritalin to a glacier after seeing how congress takes FOREVER to get anything done. It makes the point very well.
Plain and simple, I don't want the Federal Government to dictate any aspect of my health coverage. I would rather them set a few ground rules for my insurance company to follow and leave it at that. People thought it was folly to regulate the banks back in the 1920-30s, but back then it was well-regulated U.S. banks that made this nation an economic and industrial powerhouse. It was still a capitalist system, but there was a system of checks and balances in place, and I see that as needing to happen with health care as well. Too bad there were so many moves to de-regulate the banks... That's what helped to cause our 'recession' later on down the road.
My overall point is that both systems have their advantages and disadvantages. However, a complete overhaul with a government option will not benefit me, or anyone I know personally in any way. I do not believe it will benefit the middle-class that Obama likes to paint as, "Disappearing altogether."
As for your life expectancy numbers, I find them interesting, but I should also point out that the large population difference between the U.S., Canada, and the UK could flaw those numbers somewhat. The simple truth is that there are more people in that U.S. that can die at any given time simply because there are more people. That does not necessarily mean that our quality of healthcare is worse, but there are just more instances of deaths occurring due to the fact that there are probably more doctors and patients as a whole in the U.S.
Population of the UK as of 2008: ~61,000,000
Population of Canada as of 2008: ~33,000,000
Population of the U.S. as of 2008: ~304,000,000
UK pop + Canada pop = ~94,000,000
The UK and Canada combined aren't even a third of the U.S. population. The most likely reason there are more Americans dying is probably because there are more Americans, and those are just (most of) the documented, legal, U.S. citizens.
As for the issue more related to life expectancy, there could be any number of factors that contribute to that as well that may not specifically point to quality of healthcare. With the U.S. having a larger population, there are probably more of use doing things that, quite frankly, can get us killed. More people own cars = more car accidents. More people (as a whole, not as a percentage of the population) may use dangerous drugs/narcotics. More people may fall off of ladders. Those numbers can come from any number of factors.
I would also like to state that you and I appear to have derailed this thread, but at least it is an interesting discussion.
Ther very idea of spending a TON of money (billions of dollars) on defecit to reduce debt is a little absurd don't you think?Steelfists said:
When money flows, an economy can grow - a stagnant market brings the whole system to a grinding halt. Rather than dumping billions into a package that may very well fall flat on its face, it would be far better to find way of encouraging the consumer, the common man, to spend their money. When the consumers are comfortable with the thought of spending their money, the system can begin to work again.
EDIT: Hence raising the GDP, and the buying power of the consumer. Private consumption is a big part of the equation.
My point was when you're a reasonably intelligent person you can get good marks.... but you're most likely going to be bored because they dumb it down so that the not so reasonably intelligent can also pass with alright grades, because god forbid we work the children too hard or hurt their feelings by failing them. No Child Left Behind was a horrible idea and prevents those who have the ability to excel in school work to do so.ShredHead said:
I feel most children need a swift kick the pants these days only because they are being taught now that "It's cool, whatever! It's fine! You're special!" when it's not like that. They need a swift kick to bring them back to reality.
you're right about Riel. my bad. he was the one doing the shooting, but i still think he shouldn't have been killed.Brnin8 said:
and i would have been decently satisfied with the NDP in office. better then the wuss Dion. even the Green Party would have been more interesting then the Conservatives. Still wish there had been some other parties that ran...but you get what's offered.
and besides...
exactly. plus, i can't say i really trust him, he's from Alberta, the most american of provinces. if that shouldn't keep him out of office, i don't know what should.Doctor Glocktor said:
You cannae just put the parts of the economy that are not directly man on the street related on life support. And these are the more profitable parts of the economy. I will discuss this in more length tomorrow, I don't have time now.tsb247 said:
I'm from Scotland so my longggg list includes:
The release of the Lockerbie bomber.
Neds (if you don't know what they are, look here [http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/].)
my favourite city is also the "murder capital of europe".
the sheer amount of homophobia.
the general hate for anyone with red/ginger hair.
Buckfast.
the way some people type: "H4W WHiiT URR YOOH DAEiiN P4L" (I am being serious. They do actually type like that)
PC DJs - think good songs with a lot of bass which is basically THUD THUD THUD THUD + a gerbil singing with the occasional "DEE JAY FUCKIN' BAD BOY 2K7 YA BASTARDDD" or something similar.
I think I'll stop listing stuff before I go into a full-blown rager.
The release of the Lockerbie bomber.
Neds (if you don't know what they are, look here [http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/].)
my favourite city is also the "murder capital of europe".
the sheer amount of homophobia.
the general hate for anyone with red/ginger hair.
Buckfast.
the way some people type: "H4W WHiiT URR YOOH DAEiiN P4L" (I am being serious. They do actually type like that)
PC DJs - think good songs with a lot of bass which is basically THUD THUD THUD THUD + a gerbil singing with the occasional "DEE JAY FUCKIN' BAD BOY 2K7 YA BASTARDDD" or something similar.
I think I'll stop listing stuff before I go into a full-blown rager.
Why is it stupid? The economy needs money sloshing around in it, money flowing, like you said. The government is flooding (parts of) it with monies. Thats what you said would stop it stagnating, so whats the problem?tsb247 said:
theres lots of anti-england posts here so im gunna rip on my county of cornwall...
we think we are a seperate country
to us a farm isnt a farm, its a place to beat up tresspassing tourists who dont know any better
i actually know two cousins who are fucking each other but every1 seems to think its fine
its completely normal to get married at 16
we insist on drinking cornish ale even though it tastes like crap
we despise tourists even though our local economy is built around them
and oh yeh, we are part on england /facepalm
we think we are a seperate country
to us a farm isnt a farm, its a place to beat up tresspassing tourists who dont know any better
i actually know two cousins who are fucking each other but every1 seems to think its fine
its completely normal to get married at 16
we insist on drinking cornish ale even though it tastes like crap
we despise tourists even though our local economy is built around them
and oh yeh, we are part on england /facepalm