Things You Might (Incorrectly) Believe About Guns

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Ziadaine_v1legacy

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Apr 11, 2009
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If it takes you 1.5 seconds just to pull the gun up your not quite a fast slinger, then again thats not ment ot be the intention of it to begin with so I'll stop on that.

One thing I notice with firearms is thinking the recoil is less then that of which it is. Made that mistake a few times with .22 Rifle as a kid.
 

Fangface74

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Feb 22, 2008
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I'm curious about the term 'lock & load', does it exist or is it more movie crap?

Does it refer to loading (obviously) then putting the safety on?, or chambering a round? If it's the latter why does it come before 'load'?

Please enlighten me, and while I could just google the answer, I like this thread :)
 

Smooth Operator

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Oct 5, 2010
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Well that are very good points for a serial killer.

But I did hear some people use them for protection and not with the intent to kill everything that moves.
 

Mr Pantomime

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Jul 10, 2010
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That was n interesting read. Ive never actually used a handgun before. Rifles sure, not handguns. Would it be better to carry a knife for protection?
 

havass

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Things You Might Incorrectly Believe About Guns:

The Desert Eagle is the choice pistol for anyone and is much better than any other pistol!!!11!

Desert Eagles are sleek, cool...and very much overrated. Even in the smaller .357 / .44 Magnum variants, the pistol's weight is around 1.7-1.8kg due to its predominantly metalloid construction, which is incredibly heavy for something you'll be holding in two hands. They're also much longer than regular pistols, and physics dictates that they would hence be more difficult to hold up toward a target. Also, you can't put a suppressor on a DE. You'd probably be better off using a 2kg MP5K, which offers fully automatic / 3-round burst fire with a 15/30 bullet magazine...and it's only around 30-40cm long.
By comparison, a standard size Glock weighs only around 600-800 grams, and have significantly larger magazine capacities of 15 each, as opposed to the Desert Eagle's meager 7. More bullets = more chance of hitting a target. And then there's the massive kick from firing a .50 caliber round. Not many would be able to handle repeated kicks like that for 7 rounds straight with any decent accuracy.
 

ZephrC

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maturin said:
wkrepelin said:
The formula for the force of a collision is mass times velocity divided by time. This means if the mass is low it can be compensated for by either increasing speed or decreasing time.
And bullets move really effing fast though the body, so the TIME negates the otherwise great momentum of fast-moving projectile.
Umm... that's divided by time. As in, the more time it takes, the less damage done. That's a big part of why bullets do so much more damage than a good solid punch even though there's similar amounts of force involved. That's really just a nitpicky point as someone else has already pointed out that isn't even the formula used to figure stopping power. I just thought I should point that out.

Other than that, I mostly agree with you, but there is one other thing I'd like to point out. One bullet certainly won't instantly stop a charging attacker, but the force involved is not insignificant, so the force of half a dozen hollow point rounds impacting a target can contribute quite a bit to stopping them in their tracks. Perhaps even more so than the internal organ damage over the very short term, depending on the exact circumstances, and since the very short term is what we're primarily concerned with, the stopping power of a hollow point round should most certainly not be discounted.
 

Aurgelmir

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Nov 11, 2009
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Some of those are not myths. And you failed to state in what regard they were myths.

A police officer will have a different code of conduct than say a Marine. The same goes for country to country.

You shoot the legs if he is coming at you with something other than a gun, because all you need to do is stop him.
 

Ironic Pirate

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SomethingAmazing said:
What exactly warranted this topic? There was not a single thing here that wasn't obvious.
Apparently you haven't read the thread about the jogger shooting the mugger.

So many people making huge, angry rants about how he could have gone for a "non-lethal" shot, or something crazy like that.

Well thank you, OP. It was getting really annoying having to explain this to people.
 

Levi93

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Oct 26, 2009
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Ultratwinkie said:
Levi93 said:
Vryyk said:
Levi93 said:
Don't suppose you could back up the "You'll notice that it's always the people who have never been in a situation where they may not be going home who scream "ban guns!" the loudest." could you? I want some proof.
What's the matter? OP's post too airtight to take on for ya? Of course I can't pull cold hard numbers on something like that. If you want to count that as a small and petty victory for anti-gun activists you are of course welcome to do so.
OK so I'm admitting to being a little bit 'anti-gun' but "small and petty victory" you make it sound like they're doing a bad thing, you know... Trying to get killing machines out of civilian hands who claim they have rights to own due to a piece of paper wrote over 200 years ago? Oh and what do you mean by "OP's post too airtight." he's not making an arguement he's just pointing out some facts and missconceptions about guns, and you'll notice that he doesn't go into detain of the amount of shootings in America compared with other countries with stricter gun control.

Actually I don't even know why I'm arguing, I live in the UK where the gun controll is
strict and I can walk to the other end of my street without having to worry about getting shot, just seriously keep your stupid out dated second ammendment in America
Funny how you say to get guns out of the hands of civilians abiding by the law and not criminals. Criminals are big threat, not the civilians.
I do agree with you that criminals are a big threat but to me the biggest problem is the ease of access, I mean you can just walk into a store to buy a weapon making them easily accessable to everybody.

I'm all for civilians having weapons but there should be various gun licences and ammunition licenses in place so that if you want a gun you would have to go out of your way and apply for licenses so that there is some restrictions.

For example take the recent shootings in Arizona, I can't help but feel that if there was a stricter gun control that these deaths and injuries may not have even happened, I mean the guy just randomly opened fire into a crowd killing 6 people and injuring 12(sorry if these numbers are wrong).

For a quick comparison the last major gun crime here in the UK (that i know of) happened in july last year, the gunman was called Raoul Moat and he had a simple break-barreled shotgun, he shot a police man in the face and blinded him, his ex-girlfriend in the stomach(she survied) and his ex-girlfriends then current boyfriend once in the leg and a second time in the back of the head, he was then cornered in a field by police in a 4 hour or so period of time of him sitting with his gun to his head which ended up in him getting tasered and him shooting himself in the head. And then a couple of weeks later the officer in charge of the field stand off commited suicide.

Now that was in July last year where as on the other hand I hear a couple of gun crime reports every week in America.

Another some what random note, police in Manchester when on duty are required to wear a bullet proof vest but are not allowed to carry a gun, seriously WTF, this is one of the few times i feel the are a little bit too restricted.

Oh and finally I regret what I said about the bill of rights so, apologies for that, what i said was waaayyy to trollish for my liking.
 

Jonluw

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May 23, 2010
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dastardly said:
Snippolainen
Hi, just in case noone has linked you to this yet; here's an article you might find entertaining: http://www.cracked.com/article_18576_5-ridiculous-gun-myths-everyone-believes-thanks-to-movies.html

I don't really have anything else to say, because I have no intention of debating guns and gun-laws, sice that is one of the single most tiresome debates in the world.
And not least; it isn't relevant where I live.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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gbemery said:
5. ...you should try to get away first.

This one though I have heard is kind of a gray area in different jurisdictions. I have heard (from a judge, officers and public defender) that if you have any access to leave the situation then you must first try before you are legally allowed to take lethal action.
It can be, yes. More and more places are coming around to the "stand your ground" model, when it comes to attacks. Because the difference is whether you're being robbed or attacked. If you're JUST being robbed, they're simply asking you for your money... possibly under threat. But you give them the money (or throw it) and then try to escape the situation. It's not okay to shoot someone who stands back and says "Hey, gimme your money."

But once there is physical contact, or they are moving in for physical contact, there is physical danger. Whether they're after money or not, it has become an attack. At this point, there is no longer any reason to assume the attack will stop when the perpetrator has the money (or whatever). This is why "just get away" doesn't work--they are not robbing you, they're attacking you.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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photog212 said:
The reason we have an armed police force and not just handing out guns at every corner, is that the police are supposed to use restraint. That is why we spend money (I'll admit could be more) training them, finding new methods and technologies.
To outright suggest that the cop "isn't at fault" is kinda ridiculous (maybe biased?). It would be truly amazing if we lived in a world where the police were ALWAYS good and in the right, but unfortunately that world doesn't exist. The police should be just as accountable as every one else, no exceptions.
I'm not saying the cop is always wrong, but you have to admit the cop is not always right.
There are situations where we have to separate the concept of "responsibility" from "fault." If someone dies because they charged a cop with a knife and the cop shot them, the cop is responsible for killing that person... but not at fault in the death. They did not create the situation that led inexorably to that person's death.

There are some cases where, looking back, we see how the situation could have been handled differently, and how the cop could have prevented the situation from escalating the way it did. Training can't cover every possible outcome. When that happens, we ought to be free to talk about what the cop is responsible for doing, and what other cops are responsible for doing in the future. But that doesn't mean we always throw fault on the cop.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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BobDobolina said:
So to review: ideally one should fire multiple shots at an attacker just to be on the safe side even if they have no visible weapon, and since we're not all crack shots and should assume that most shots fired under duress will miss*.
Please understand that our tendency to miss is not why we fire multiple shots. We fire them because even hitting the target doesn't guarantee they'll instantly stop. For instance, cops are trained to fire at least three shots--chest, chest, head. The purpose of the gun is to stop the attacker, and that hasn't been accomplished until they've stopped.

That said, yes, we tend to miss.

However, shots fired into the air pose an unacceptable risk to innocents and bystanders, and can and do kill people up to a mile from the scene.

There's a very troubling inconsistency here. Why shouldn't the latter be assumed of all those rounds being squeezed off at an attacker? Especially since we're assuming (wisely, as you note) that some significant portion of them will miss? Do the rounds that miss not pose an unacceptable risk of harming bystanders, or innocents far from the scene?
There's a difference between firing directly at the attacker and firing into the air. Yes, there is always the potential for someone to get hurt, but I'm simply saying that a person should never intentionally fire away from the target. They would be intentionally visiting risk upon others.

I mean, I get that at least the rounds you're spending in firing towards the attacker are at least potentially contributing more concretely to self-defense than the far more uncertain option of the warning shot -- but if we're assuming, as you direct us via the Tueller Drill, that any attacker can close with you fast enough from 20 feet to render the range advantage of a pistol essentially moot, why wouldn't you default to non-lethal close range tools like pepper spray or (especially) a taser instead? It seems to me that given the parameters you've outlined, and since range would really have been the only reason to prefer a pistol in the first place if your only objective is to stop the guy, this would make more sense. Especially for non-cops (I take it the point about multiple shots is "mostly for cops" since we're hoping have they a relatively smaller chance, at least, of accidentally killing someone unrelated to the incident with a stray shot)?
Please understand that pepper spray and tasers are not close-range measures. Pepper spray requires a considerable distance unless you also want to spray yourself. Both of these are non-lethal apprehension tools, not self-defense. They are used by cops who already have them drawn and ready when a subject is at range, meaning they've come into the situation prepared. In an attack, this isn't the case.

And stun guns of all sorts carry the risk that you'll be in contact with the person you're stunning... and in doing so, you'll stun yourself. These are useful if you have the element of surprise (in which case it's not an attack).

[small](* You do note, it would seem wisely, that this is mostly for cops... but then undercut this by going on to talk about how this rule actually makes most sense for civilians who can't assess whether there really is a weapon in play or not. So it actually sounds like, despite your caveat, you're prescribing this as a methodology for civilians.)[/small]
I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere. What I said was "mostly for cops" is the idea of drawing your weapon on an opponent that is farther away--that is to say, usually cops are the ones that have that advantage, since they go into the situation knowing there is a crime occuring.

Firing multiple shots is proper use of a handgun, regardless of "cop or not." One bullet won't stop anyone. Even a headshot. There are police training videos of men with huge holes in their heads, still able to move around and pose a danger. The person is "dead," but the body is still a threat. Fire until the target stops.
 

Ganthrinor

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Apr 15, 2009
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I know enough about guns to know I don't know much. Just enough to be a danger to myself and others, so unless I plan on murdering a ************ or ten, I leave them alone. Those points make logical sense to me though.
 

pubbing

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dastardly said:
We tend to think this is true because of laws surrounding home invasion. If someone breaks in, grabs your TV, and heads for the door, you can't shoot them to keep your TV. They have demonstrated they intend to leave, so legally you can't shoot them. If they advance on you, however, this is changed instantly. (The only legal sticky spot is if you move to block their exit. This makes you the "aggressor" in some systems.)
In states with castle laws like mine this is not true. If your home is invaded you don't have to worry about dumbshit laws like this. If someone is in your home you have the right to defend your property as well as your life with deadly force.
 

The Funslinger

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SomethingAmazing said:
dastardly said:
SomethingAmazing said:
What exactly warranted this topic? There was not a single thing here that wasn't obvious.
I might direct you to the "Teen shot and killed..." thread in this very forum. But there have been others recently as well. This most recent thread just got my intellectual dander up a bit, so I decided to provide a one-stop shop for dispelling gun myths.
...Alright.

Do you have any light to shed on non-lethal bullets like the ones used in Riot Guns?
There is no such thing as a completely none-lethal round. Riot ammunition, and even blank shots (e.g. ones used in movies to prick a blood pack) have on occasion caused dangerous wounds and even death. More often than not, it's fine, but that's no reason so slack off, care-wise.
 

Dastardly

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pubbing said:
dastardly said:
We tend to think this is true because of laws surrounding home invasion. If someone breaks in, grabs your TV, and heads for the door, you can't shoot them to keep your TV. They have demonstrated they intend to leave, so legally you can't shoot them. If they advance on you, however, this is changed instantly. (The only legal sticky spot is if you move to block their exit. This makes you the "aggressor" in some systems.)
In states with castle laws like mine this is not true. If your home is invaded you don't have to worry about dumbshit laws like this. If someone is in your home you have the right to defend your property as well as your life with deadly force.
The particulars of a "castle law" can get tricky. For instance, in NC, the purpose of the "castle law" is to protect people while someone is breaking into the house. So, if you hear someone trying to pry open your window or break down your door, you can open use lethal force to keep them from entering. This is because you can't be sure whether or not they are armed, or whether or not they're coming to kill you. It's your house, so they already have no right to be there.

However, one they are inside, the technicalities change. You may only use lethal force if you have a reasonable fear that your life is in jeopardy. If he enters, throws up his hands, and says, "Look, man, I'm just here for the TV," you can't legally shoot him. If he takes the TV and starts to leave with it, you can't shoot him. If he tries to leave and you move to stop him, you are usually no longer protected by law in the use of lethal force.

Some states, like TX, are beginning to allow the use of lethal force in the protection of property while in your house. I understand completely. By the time a person has broken in to take your things, they have demonstrated they have little regard (if any) for you and your livelihood. They're taking things you paid for with your money, which you earn at your job, which costs you time and energy from your life. And it's being done in your own home. That's enough to convince me this person wouldn't think twice about killing me if it made things easier on him.

But just be aware of some of the little technicalities in your state that you might not be aware of. Sometimes the popular interpretation of a law isn't the same as the legal interpretation.
 

Danpascooch

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Apr 16, 2009
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dastardly said:
A lot of these seem like Bullshit or at least biased to me, for example, yes every bullet has the POTENTIAL to kill, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter where you shoot, or that you shouldn't try to be nonlethal. I'm not going to entertain the notion that shooting someone in the arm is as deadly as shooting them in the face.

Also, you don't need to actually physically stop someone to stop them, if someone has a knife, and they hear you fire a gun at them twice, why the FUCK would they keep running toward you? You're acting as though they can't see, hear, or feel that they just got shot.

Lastly, saying "nobody has a right to take something that's rightfully yours" should be followed with "but you don't necessarily always have a right to end someone's life". A lot of what you wrote hear could get you convicted of murder in some cases.
 

blind_dead_mcjones

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good read dastardly, though its kind of disappointing that you have to make threads like these after seeing the same exact point made hundreds of times adverbatim and people still can't take the hint

calebcom84 said:
I'm quite happy with my 2nd Amendment thank you. If I lived in london I would be dead currently.

Edit: Gotta love the UK, where someone can break into your house while you're home KNOWING that there's a 99% likelihood that no one in there has a gun.
gotta love it when people equate 'no gun' with 'defenceless and unable to prevent someone from breaking into their house' aren't generalisations and misconceptions fun?

danpascooch said:
A lot of these seem like Bullshit or at least biased to me, for example, yes every bullet has the POTENTIAL to kill, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter where you shoot, or that you shouldn't try to be nonlethal. I'm not going to entertain the notion that shooting someone in the arm is as deadly as shooting them in the face.
except that when it comes to shooting in the shoulder/arm area your chances of hitting are dramatically smaller when it comes to aiming for the chest, increasing your chances of hitting an innocent bystander, also if you go for the shoulder specfically, due to the collection of veins in that area AND the location of the ball and socket joint, if you hit them there either a) they bleed to death in much the same as one would if you hit an artery or b) the bullet hits the ball and socket joint and shatters it completely, crippling them for life (as there is no surgeon on the planet that can repair a ball and socket joint for the shoulder) in which if they survive that, knowing the american legal system they will sue the pants off of you for crippling them
 

ArianaUO321

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Onyx Oblivion said:
A very good topic, that should be read by all people on any jury for any lawsuit against the police.

I hate it when the police shoot a criminal, and the family sues. They did their fucking job.
If you ask me, if you are breaking the law, and the police are forced to intervene? Your rights to sue or file a lawsuit should be completely, and totally forfeit. Provided of course that there is clear evidence that you are guilty of something.

However, its important to note that if the police do open fire on you, 9/10 times, you deserved it. Police aren't just going to pull out their pistol and start firing on you unless you provoke the response.

In short? Don't argue with cops or fight them if you don't want to get shot. Listen to them, don't do anything stupid, and you should be fine.