Thoughts on the education system.

[implodingMan]

Something that I have been musing on lately is the education system that we are all put through. This will be from a Canadian perspective, but I'm going to assume you guys have similar problems, so tag along.

I remember back in my last year of highschool I was taking a class on advanced functions (math). At one point in the year there was a test that I didn't feel like studying for, and as such I got a 48%, a failing grade. That was entirely my fault and I felt like an idiot.

A week later a friend returned from a trip overseas and wanted help catching up. At this point I had learned the material on the test that I hadn't known then and I taught it to him. He passes the test with a 78%, based entirely on the knowledge that I had given him. I was happy for him, as he is a good friend.

Something bothered me though. I knew the material. What should stop me from taking the test again and demonstrating my knowledge. I could not, though. Whenever someone looked at my records is would plainly say "He does not know how to graph inverse quadratics", even though I was perfectly capable of graphing them, contrary to what was said in the records.

Basically what I am getting at is: Should student's marks be in a constant state of flux, with assignments able to be resubmitted at any time to try and adjust your marks at any time? Obviously there would be restraints on this, like your resubmitted assignment being put to the bottom of a pile of all other assignments to be marked, and all assignments having to be in by a certain point so that teachers can prepare for exams.

There would be an obvious trade off though, you gain a more complete picture of what a student can do, but you lost the picture of what a student can do under pressure.

Thoughts? You can post your own ideas on school systems as well.

 

[Chiasm]

Problem with the school system in America is the same as all problems, I could promise little to no crime in the US and I could promise a system where every kid gets to go to college. Problem? almost nobody wants to pay the extra 40-50% tax it would be to cause these wonderful changes so instead they cover there ears and try to ignore all the problems to save there own money.

 

[internutt]

Personally I think that a mix of coursework and a final exam is a great way for courses to be set. It shows what the student has learned as well as what the student is capable of. The SQA and Napier University are really good for this sort of thing I think.

 

[Random Argument Man]

If we permitted every student to retake tests, everyone would rant in for a second chance.

As for your score, I'm sorry, but it's your fault for not taking this seriously. (No offense).

 

[Ixus Illwrath]

I'm going to school right now on an education/history double major because I think the system is broken to the point that the only people who will make good teachers are people who are willing to sacrifice a huge amount of income.

 

[implodingMan]

If we permitted every student to retake tests, everyone would rant in for a second chance.

As for your score, I'm sorry, but it's your fault for not taking this seriously. (No offense).

That's kind of the point

And I am well aware of my own stupid choices.

 

[DeadlyYellow]

I'd long since abandoned the idea behind a grade (and don't think it's because I was a bad student, I was on mostly honor roll through high school.) Since I like to consider myself an artist, I feel you cannot adequately gauge a person's skill and usefulness with a meaningless letter.

What I hate most about American schools (at least the one I went to) is how many times the student's have to take U.S. History. Hell, I still have to take one in college. And why? It's not like history is going to change, we just review the same wars and political strifes as we did last year.

 

[tthor]

i personally think our education system is a piece of cr@p..

its hardly even about LEARNING anymore... it now seems to be just about keeping us busy for 7 hours a day, and just making a minimal effort to teach us. i'd personally prefer to jus teach myself

 

[Random Argument Man]

If we permitted every student to retake tests, everyone would rant in for a second chance.

As for your score, I'm sorry, but it's your fault for not taking this seriously. (No offense).

That's kind of the point

And I am well aware of my own stupid choices.

Sorry, I say no second chance. Fix dates helps giving a sense of responsability.

 

[Trace2010]

Many of my teachers had a very good balance going between homework (which could be resubmitted at any time during the grading period) and tests (which needed to be taken the day given, or risk a more challenging makeup test later).

I believe that standardized and systematic cirriculums are necessary in order to make sure that the same information is covered across the board- I just hate how many administrators and parents think that is solely the be all and end all of education. Being a music educator, I consistently find myself at odds with the "standards based cirriculum" that tells me that Fine Arts is not as important simply because it cannot be quantified enough to show up on a stupid test.

To deadly yellow- it's not the same history that all of a sudden changes when you get to college....it's the points of view that are suddenly allowed to shape the same information that you received in high school and present it differently.

 

[Alone Disciple]

Well, I kind of temper your thought process alone with real world, post schooling careers.

My step-daughter often takes her courses lightly as well and has made some poor decisions, yet our schools here invariably keep passing her sending a signal to most teens that it's okay that you do a half-assed job. I think you'll here stories over and over to varying degrees that kids aren't held back (even when they should be), or get multiple chances to make up the work, or get extra credit.

That's all fine and dandy I suppose when you're under the age of 18....but in all honesty it just dillutes the personal responsibility of the student himself, and they will be in for a rude awakening when they want a 'real' job...and I'm not talking taking orders at the local burger shop.

I try and explain to my daughter that having the attitude of doing half-assed work, will get her a hal-assed job, with half-assed pay. No repectible business or employer is going to put up with "Oh, your report was only 50% accurate and only cost us 'x' amount of dollars of time and labor, so you can do it again when you feel up to it." No, they will say, "Here's a box...pack up your desk."

In my area I shake my head when my daughter gets a 'D' or an 'F' at times. Here's the way I look at it:

1) You're only in school a maximum of 6-7 hours a day, 5 days a week, maybe 8 months a year (the rest is summer vacation and holidays and 1/2 days and all that otehr BS), get an hour for lunch and a few minutes break.

2) Theoretically, that is your 'job' for now. You are a 'student', and the school is your 'employer'. What other employer can you name that will give their employees multiple chances to redeem yourselves over and over.

3) Most school systems are so lax to begin with, you almost have to make an actual effort to get a 'D' or 'F'. Remember a 'C' is average, so theoretically you are below average and almost have to try and even earn those crappy grades. Hell, I just showed up on time with no absences, and turn in most (not all) my work, and you were more or less 'passed'. We've become idiots, because we've allowed ourselves to become idiots and don't hold anyone responsible...our parents, our schools...ourselves.

I do give you props for owning up to the fact you didn't study and admiting you didn't take it seriously. So you're already one step ahead of most the other dip sticks out there. But here in the states, we are big on excuses...I don't know how or why...but everyone has an excuse these days. They just don't work anymore once you get a real job.

 

[Ixus Illwrath]

Well, I kind of temper your thought process alone with real world, post schooling careers.

My step-daughter often takes her courses lightly as well and has made some poor decisions, yet our schools here invariably keep passing her sending a signal to most teens that it's okay that you do a half-assed job. I think you'll here stories over and over to varying degrees that kids aren't held back (even when they should be), or get multiple chances to make up the work, or get extra credit.

That's all fine and dandy I suppose when you're under the age of 18....but in all honesty it just dillutes the personal responsibility of the student himself, and they will be in for a rude awakening when they want a 'real' job...and I'm not talking taking orders at the local burger shop.

I try and explain to my daughter that having the attitude of doing half-assed work, will get her a hal-assed job, with half-assed pay. No repectible business or employer is going to put up with "Oh, your report was only 50% accurate and only cost us 'x' amount of dollars of time and labor, so you can do it again when you feel up to it." No, they will say, "Here's a box...pack up your desk."

In my area I shake my head when my daughter gets a 'D' or an 'F' at times. Here's the way I look at it:

1) You're only in school a maximum of 6-7 hours a day, 5 days a week, maybe 8 months a year (the rest is summer vacation and holidays and 1/2 days and all that otehr BS), get an hour for lunch and a few minutes break.

2) Theoretically, that is your 'job' for now. You are a 'student', and the school is your 'employer'. What other employer can you name that will give their employees multiple chances to redeem yourselves over and over.

3) Most school systems are so lax to begin with, you almost have to make an actual effort to get a 'D' or 'F'. Remember a 'C' is average, so theoretically you are below average and almost have to try and even earn those crappy grades. Hell, I just showed up on time with no absences, and turn in most (not all) my work, and you were more or less 'passed'. We've become idiots, because we've allowed ourselves to become idiots and don't hold anyone responsible...our parents, our schools...ourselves.

I do give you props for owning up to the fact you didn't study and admiting you didn't take it seriously. So you're already one step ahead of most the other dip sticks out there. But here in the states, we are big on excuses...I don't know how or why...but everyone has an excuse these days. They just don't work anymore once you get a real job.

You're right, but I believe that poor students prodding isn't the job of the school.

It's up to the parent to motivate their own child to be better than his peers. Teachers just serve as a medium for information.

If you're a parent complaining about your child's poor grades, blaming the school, remember they teach the same shit to everyone, your kid just doesn't care as much.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I feel that the curriculum should be objective based with milestones and the teacher providing linear and continuing instruction as well as resources for each child to proceed to their next milestone.

In other words, if I want to slack off and perform all tests in one day at the end of school I should be able to, since the proclaimed objective here is learning a specific volume of information and demonstrating a mastery of that information.

But teachers are dellusional in thinking that they are teaching you life skills and rationalize that the timely manner of your work flow reflects your ability to complete tasks in a timely manner in a real world job. Which is bullshit, because most people in the real world do not do things in a timely manner for the sake of itself. They usually do things quickly when financial incentives are in play.

 

[Trace2010]

I agree with you BallPoint....many of the problems with today's schooling is that the financial incentives of a high school diploma operate under delayed gratification...a concept that has to be taught by parents...it only rarely can be taught by teachers, no matter the ability level.

 

[Alone Disciple]

Well, I kind of temper your thought process alone with real world, post schooling careers.

My step-daughter often takes her courses lightly as well and has made some poor decisions, yet our schools here invariably keep passing her sending a signal to most teens that it's okay that you do a half-assed job. I think you'll here stories over and over to varying degrees that kids aren't held back (even when they should be), or get multiple chances to make up the work, or get extra credit.

That's all fine and dandy I suppose when you're under the age of 18....but in all honesty it just dillutes the personal responsibility of the student himself, and they will be in for a rude awakening when they want a 'real' job...and I'm not talking taking orders at the local burger shop.

I try and explain to my daughter that having the attitude of doing half-assed work, will get her a hal-assed job, with half-assed pay. No repectible business or employer is going to put up with "Oh, your report was only 50% accurate and only cost us 'x' amount of dollars of time and labor, so you can do it again when you feel up to it." No, they will say, "Here's a box...pack up your desk."

In my area I shake my head when my daughter gets a 'D' or an 'F' at times. Here's the way I look at it:

1) You're only in school a maximum of 6-7 hours a day, 5 days a week, maybe 8 months a year (the rest is summer vacation and holidays and 1/2 days and all that otehr BS), get an hour for lunch and a few minutes break.

2) Theoretically, that is your 'job' for now. You are a 'student', and the school is your 'employer'. What other employer can you name that will give their employees multiple chances to redeem yourselves over and over.

3) Most school systems are so lax to begin with, you almost have to make an actual effort to get a 'D' or 'F'. Remember a 'C' is average, so theoretically you are below average and almost have to try and even earn those crappy grades. Hell, I just showed up on time with no absences, and turn in most (not all) my work, and you were more or less 'passed'. We've become idiots, because we've allowed ourselves to become idiots and don't hold anyone responsible...our parents, our schools...ourselves.

I do give you props for owning up to the fact you didn't study and admiting you didn't take it seriously. So you're already one step ahead of most the other dip sticks out there. But here in the states, we are big on excuses...I don't know how or why...but everyone has an excuse these days. They just don't work anymore once you get a real job.

You're right, but I believe that poor students prodding isn't the job of the school.

It's up to the parent to motivate their own child to be better than his peers. Teachers just serve as a medium for information.

If you're a parent complaining about your child's poor grades, blaming the school, remember they teach the same shit to everyone, your kid just doesn't care as much.

Absolutely....It is just as much the parents fault as well. And me being a 'step-father' as being the 'bilogical' father generally means (and let this be a lesson to all you thinking about marriage and raising someone elses kids) you get over ruled in the discipline area. I try to step in and intervene, to disciple....just to get over ruled when she goes back to her dad's house or mom thinks I'm being 'mean'.

My answer: "Fine, when she's 18 years old she can start paying rent, or if she moves out and needs to move back in after she realizes she can only make minimum wage and can't afford anything....tough....she can ask her bilogical dad to support her as he's been making excuses for her the last 10 years."

But yes...parents are at fault too...I shouldn't have left that out in my earlier rant.

 

[Ixus Illwrath]

For the record, I didn't try to call you a bad parent, hope it didn't come off like that

 

[Trace2010]

Problem with the school system in America is the same as all problems, I could promise little to no crime in the US and I could promise a system where every kid gets to go to college. Problem? almost nobody wants to pay the extra 40-50% tax it would be to cause these wonderful changes so instead they cover there ears and try to ignore all the problems to save there own money.

You forgot to add that the more people in the world that have a college degree...the less a college education is worth overall. In 1945, a high school education was a sought after commodity (most people could not afford it); In 1970, the college degree was sought after (especially after scholarships, grants and student loans made universities more affordable); very soon, graduate and doctoral work will become the status quo.

 

[BladePHF]

Lemme tell you all a little about the Romanian educational system... Remember the Old Days of Communism? Remember how they pushed everyone real hard, regardless of what he did as a job, the idea being that only over-achievers are worth a spit? Well, that´s how it used to be, and how it still bloody is. I mean, it´s a Goddamn tragedy if you get anything less then straight 10s across the board, and lemme tell ya, getting ´em is hard as f&%$! And in true communist style, if you reeeealy dont give a rat´s ass about school, all you gotta do is give out a little money, a liquer bottle or a little perfume (depending on the teacher,´natch) and YOU TOO can have straight 10s!

Way to go Romania, Land of the Study-Die-Hards and the Many Who Pay Their Way Through!

 

[sneakypenguin]

Problem with the school system in America is the same as all problems, I could promise little to no crime in the US and I could promise a system where every kid gets to go to college. Problem? almost nobody wants to pay the extra 40-50% tax it would be to cause these wonderful changes so instead they cover there ears and try to ignore all the problems to save there own money.

Ha well we here in America already pay a pinch more than 50 % of our income in taxes (unless your poor then you pay nadda) so a extra 40% would pretty much be more than we make.

It would be nice to be able to retake test because I don't know how many times at the end of the semester I'm proficient in all the material yet early test scores don't show it. O well I guess I should just continue to study my butt off for good grades.

 

[crepesack]

ill give you my perspective on the United States education system and don't flame me i AM AMERICAN i have a pass port as well. >.< ok then lets begin.
Obviously americans aren't educated that well as we are in the 20's for science and math rankings in the world. I believe its not just the fact that there is a lack of good teachers but also the curricula is terrible being based on standardized testing (here in texas) and also because the sheer learning environment and american culture being obsessed with sex and violence. The education system in america does not work for the very reason they thought it would, based on forming the curricula to meet the students needs DOES NOT WORK instead the student should fit the the curricula and if they dont they are boned end of story.