Thread Topic - LGBT and Video Games

[Callate]

...Okay. Sure, I guess? I wouldn't count on seeing a game with a protagonist who was solely gay and male and that was a significant impact point of plot or characterization out of the AAA marketplace any time soon. But games like Saints Row and The Elder Scrolls at least suggest that it can be an option without the entire world burning down (a few heated e-mails and forum spats aside.)

I'm not of the opinion that a game with a gay protagonist is such an unvarnished good that it should get a pass regardless of whether its a failure on every other level. I certainly wouldn't pass up such a game if it was worthwhile otherwise, though.

No one has to play a game that offends them (as a lot of people have been trying to say repeatedly), so, why not? (Heh, maybe it will encourage the squeamish to wait for reviews of games rather than being suckered into pre-ordering. Win-win.)

 

[cleric of the order]

I really have very little that isn't more then my previous statements elsewhere of, diversity in games has existed for as long as games existed.
This is not and will never be a new thing.
This is not growth.
This is not chance.
This is not anything.
I'm instead going to leave this video here, to preface the speaker is homosexual, if you choose not to watch the whole way through I don't blame you.
(8min in this video is a nice place to start)
(15:50 is also really good, just.)

And close with a statement of my own, the flesh and blood of the Char' largely doesn't matter. A gay person can and should be written the same way as a straight one largely. The same with black white and so one.
Unless being gay somehow changes more then you sexual preference then there why is it necessary to have distinction, any char in any game could be gay or trans or straight or what have you.
The same goes with race, so unless you are trying to write social commentary then there is not a lot of reason to have one race over another and frankly it should me measured by the creators and the theme of the game not for shoe horning's sake.
What we all need is more interestingly written chars And frankly those chars can be like in video-games past, bears, hedgeheg's, ducks, gremlins, trolls, orgers, dogs, those things from odd world, aliens or what ever you can think of.
We've had diversity in games for bloody ever.
My childhood heroes were 4 robot, a Italian plumber, a Fox and his team, KANE (I still don't know what he is.), a bear or two, a penguin, a woman from the plains (please guess) and a femal bounty hunter.
The sex, gender, sexual preference, nationality, race, creed, time they prefer to eat lunch in the day, never has mattered and should never matter.
Let's see games with good chars, not a quota.

 

[Musette]

I also think pricing is insane for women's formal wear. It's often less durable material and a lot more expensive for less of it. What a racket for what it really is. They're smart companies that take full advantage of cultures pressure on females to take fashion more seriously than males.

Agreed, it's more expensive, yet some people feel like they're expected to never rewear dresses either. I'm a percussionist, and my favorite instrument is over 9ft in length, so I have to do quite a bit of lunging, and I'd be terrified to wear a dress because of the risks of it tearing, making me trip, or otherwise getting in the way. (Also, you can't cross your legs while playing timpani since you use foot pedals to tune, so wearing a short dress would mean basically flashing your underwear to the audience.) Funny how weird fashion expectations are instilled on women's clothing and not men's. They're really not taking advantage of the idea to their fullest!

Interesting, I was somewhat unaware of the asexual demographic feeling left out. If you don't mind my asking, do you find that the explicit characterization of the protagonist as Asexual is vital to feeling catered to or do you generally just roleplay when playing games without a love interest as though they were Asexual. It seems like aside from the absence of explicit references nearly any game without a love interest could be relevant to asexual orientations. Or maybe I'm just being ignorant. I was under the impression that people who classify themselves as Asexual just weren't interested in sexual relationships with others. How would you expect to see a legitimate Asexual character depicted other than a sentence saying that they're asexual? Heterosexuals and Homosexuals would be depicted in those sorts of relationships and reference to sexuality in a non-sexual game would be somewhat unnecessary. But again, I could easily be fully ignorant here on my understanding so please enlighten me.

To be honest, I'm not that bothered about not seeing asexuals in media, as I can relate to a lot of characters just fine when romance/sex isn't involved. Asexuality is not an important enough part of my identity for me to actively seek it in my media. Because asexuality is characterized by the absence of something, it's really difficult to be subtle about if a character is actually asexual or not, (exactly as you stated, any character could be interpreted that way when sex or relationships are not relevant to the plot) but as I mentioned before, when characters explicitly reveal their asexuality, it just turns into a giant PSA with basic 101 information, which kinda feels like a breaking of the fourth wall to me. Yeah, maybe a character could state it in another wording, but I generally don't assume characters asexual, especially when I consider that many of the people who wrote these characters probably had never heard of that orientation when making that character. People will still "headcanon" characters as asexual without it being explicitly stated though, with the most popular ones being Sherlock Holmes, The Doctor, and Sheldon Cooper, but I can't say I get very invested in it, and I weirdly found that I had trouble relating to characters who could be interpreted as asexual even with the potential for that common ground. So to answer your question, I can't say I feel particularly catered to even if a character is explicitly asexual.

As far as role playing goes, I can't say I ever went out of my way to act out an asexual character. I never got into Bioware, so those scenarios never popped up. I never tried any of the marriage content in Skyrim. The most I did was make my character engage in relationships in the Persona games, though admittedly several of the relationships came on by accident (much like my real life ones did back when I dated!). Admittedly, I played those games before I discovered my sexuality, so I wasn't aware enough of it to act it out in the first place.

I can't say I would know a reasonable way to depict an asexual character. My own orientation goes completely undetected in my everyday life, and I don't mind people just assuming that I'm straight and not bother me. I also never had a state of self-hate or thinking I was broken because of it, so the process of discovering my orientation wasn't even that dramatic. I don't really have struggles that come from my orientation, so the struggles people try to depict with asexual characters are just as foreign to me as LGBT struggles, though I find the latter to be a more interesting topic to explore.

I apologize for the wall of text/semi-stream-of-consciousness ramblings, but in short, I wouldn't know what subtly inserting an asexual into a narrative would look like, but I'm not bothered by that. I'm actually more annoyed when people insert an asexual character solely as a visibility effort and I see so many other asexuals yelling "YES, WE WANT MORE OF THIS" as loudly as their keyboard allow. I swear, it feels like the only trope in existence for the topic >>

 

[Vault101]

The same goes with race, so unless you are trying to write social commentary then there is not a lot of reason to have one race over another and frankly it should me measured by the creators and the theme of the game not for shoe horning's sake.

does this mean that most character should be white unless their race is a specific issue?

I only ask because I think my existence as a not quite straight female is not a fucking "Saturday morning cartoon special" or "social commentary" and I don't see why its treated as such

you know when people spew the pseudo-progressive "yeah but they shouldn't be x unless theres a reeeeaaaasooooon"

here's an idea

[I/]some people are x[/I]

BAM! there's your reason


[quote/]Let's see games with good chars, not a quota.[/quote]
*pssst* let me tell you a secret

quotas aren't a thing

they were never a thing

they will never be a thing

they are a fantasy made up by guys scared that the minories are gonna take away their gamez

 

[Vault101]

I agree that I don't want some sort of agenda shoved down my throat in media that I consume.
.

this is what gets me though

[b/]what does it mean??[/b]

because you know what comes to mind when I think of something that has an "adgenda"? Star Trek, the original Star Trek

Uhurah Sulu and Checkov are there because Roddenberry specifically had the vision (or adgenda) of difference races/genders working together, they are put there on purpose, does that make it poltical? well fuck isn't everything political by definition?

I honestly don't understand this idea that anything that doesn't cater to the white straight male has an "adgenda" because lets be honest here

is "women and minority's deserve representation" REALLY that awful? is it really any more awful than the BS ea and Ubisoft pull? don't THEY have adgenda's? wasn't Aiden Peirce a carefully crafted bland of nothingess designed to appeal to what's currently popular? to sell games? isn't that an "adgenda"?

and what is a "gay" game anyway? is it mass effect? is it fallout New Vegas? if Lara and Sam were confirmed as lovers in Tomb Raider 2013 (instead of subtext) would that be a "gay" game? or a Tomb Raider game in which Lara is a lesbian/possibly bi?

if a character being gay is irrelevant (and according to some people therefore should be hidden) they why was it "relevant" for shepard to only romance people/aliens of his/her gender in ME1/2? why is it relevant for William Blackovitz from Wolfenstein to be passionately screwing Anya on a train? why is it relevant for whats his face from shadow of mordor to have a big sad over the death of his wife and child? why was it relevant for Jason Brody to be getting it on with the crazy tribal lady? why was it relevant to treat us to a tacked on sex scene in metro 2033?

why is heterosexuality considered "relevant" but homosexuality something for straight people to condescendingly tell us it shouldn't matter?

In the last of us "left behind" DLC Ellie has feelings for a girl, was there a "reason" for it? could they have given her a little boyfriend or kept her relationship platonic? yes they could have...but they didn't

was that "gay" DLC? was that unappealing to straight people? or was it just what it was? young romance that just happned to be gay

 

[Lightknight]

Agreed, it's more expensive, yet some people feel like they're expected to never rewear dresses either. I'm a percussionist, and my favorite instrument is over 9ft in length, so I have to do quite a bit of lunging, and I'd be terrified to wear a dress because of the risks of it tearing, making me trip, or otherwise getting in the way. (Also, you can't cross your legs while playing timpani since you use foot pedals to tune, so wearing a short dress would mean basically flashing your underwear to the audience.) Funny how weird fashion expectations are instilled on women's clothing and not men's. They're really not taking advantage of the idea to their fullest!

I think we're starting to see more of that. The whole "metrosexual" fad in the last decade was sort of a step towards trying to revolutionize the industry. It just didn't seem to stick. Either male culture or even male biology (or both) is resistant to the concept.

We're also seeing a kind of counterculture in females too though. I mean, sure, people ***** about you wearing masculine formal wear but if I were to walk into any business today then the pant suit is everywhere I look. On a side note regarding casual-wear, my wife bought some jeans for males yesterday and she was practically livid at how comfortable they were. She doesn't like the ass-hugging pant-style and the fact that these jeans had actual functional pockets (come on, girl-jean pockets are a joke) made her think about how ridiculous the style getting forced on her otherwise was. But, since I don't care, I actually prefer women that dress for comfort because I like real people who aren't putting on a face all the time, I mentioned that she never had to buy a pair of girl-jeans again. It's not like they're even that distinguishable besides how loose they are on the body. Whoever complains that they can't see the outline of a girl's ass in their jeans simply isn't going to matter to us where opinions are concerned.

To be honest, I'm not that bothered about not seeing asexuals in media, as I can relate to a lot of characters just fine when romance/sex isn't involved. Asexuality is not an important enough part of my identity for me to actively seek it in my media. Because asexuality is characterized by the absence of something, it's really difficult to be subtle about if a character is actually asexual or not, (exactly as you stated, any character could be interpreted that way when sex or relationships are not relevant to the plot) but as I mentioned before, when characters explicitly reveal their asexuality, it just turns into a giant PSA with basic 101 information, which kinda feels like a breaking of the fourth wall to me. Yeah, maybe a character could state it in another wording, but I generally don't assume characters asexual, especially when I consider that many of the people who wrote these characters probably had never heard of that orientation when making that character. People will still "headcanon" characters as asexual without it being explicitly stated though, with the most popular ones being Sherlock Holmes, The Doctor, and Sheldon Cooper, but I can't say I get very invested in it, and I weirdly found that I had trouble relating to characters who could be interpreted as asexual even with the potential for that common ground. So to answer your question, I can't say I feel particularly catered to even if a character is explicitly asexual.

As far as role playing goes, I can't say I ever went out of my way to act out an asexual character. I never got into Bioware, so those scenarios never popped up. I never tried any of the marriage content in Skyrim. The most I did was make my character engage in relationships in the Persona games, though admittedly several of the relationships came on by accident (much like my real life ones did back when I dated!). Admittedly, I played those games before I discovered my sexuality, so I wasn't aware enough of it to act it out in the first place.

I can't say I would know a reasonable way to depict an asexual character. My own orientation goes completely undetected in my everyday life, and I don't mind people just assuming that I'm straight and not bother me. I also never had a state of self-hate or thinking I was broken because of it, so the process of discovering my orientation wasn't even that dramatic. I don't really have struggles that come from my orientation, so the struggles people try to depict with asexual characters are just as foreign to me as LGBT struggles, though I find the latter to be a more interesting topic to explore.

I apologize for the wall of text/semi-stream-of-consciousness ramblings, but in short, I wouldn't know what subtly inserting an asexual into a narrative would look like, but I'm not bothered by that. I'm actually more annoyed when people insert an asexual character solely as a visibility effort and I see so many other asexuals yelling "YES, WE WANT MORE OF THIS" as loudly as their keyboard allow. I swear, it feels like the only trope in existence for the topic >>

Don't apologize for the "wall of text", that is a very interesting perspective to hear and I appreciate you taking the time to respond and not taking offense to my asking the question.

Do you think a character that simply expresses disinterest would be a good example? Like someone given the opportunity of either gender but just isn't going for it? Someone who is contextually resistant to any relationship may come off as a better representation than some explicitly stated PSA like you were saying. Interesting, I admit I just hadn't considered it before but thank you for broadening my horizon on the matter.

 

[cleric of the order]

The same goes with race, so unless you are trying to write social commentary then there is not a lot of reason to have one race over another and frankly it should me measured by the creators and the theme of the game not for shoe horning's sake.

does this mean that most character should be white unless their race is a specific issue?

I only ask because I think my existence as a not quite straight female is not a fucking "Saturday morning cartoon special" or "social commentary" and I don't see why its treated as such

you know when people spew the pseudo-progressive "yeah but they shouldn't be x unless theres a reeeeaaaasooooon"

here's an idea

[I/]some people are x[/I]

BAM! there's your reason


[quote/]Let's see games with good chars, not a quota.

*pssst* let me tell you a secret

quotas aren't a thing

they were never a thing

they will never be a thing
[/quote]


Man, I spent an hour writing a rebuttal and after a mis-click, boom gone.
It's a shame.
Okay then I guess I have to Go for the TLR version
To begin, I checked my steam folder and my library has a white male protagonist rate of 0.121 (20/164).
My heroes and my preferred chars have been diverse for years, and I've been playing since I could remember.
I you want to prove that games are lacking in diversity please do so, there is a list of games that have existed on a wiki or thanks to /v/, go pol it yourself but from the penetration of the games I remember It seems this whole controversy is a blatant fabrication.

they are a fantasy made up by guys scared that the minories are gonna take away their gamez

Never met a person like that in my life, even among my less politically correct white bred Irish farming cousins, please find me a person like that so I can call them aberrant.
Quotas have existed for years, abolished in some cases but in other countries they persist and in our mordern world they impede meritocracy.
Further more Action belies intent, this seems to be bellyaching, nothing more.
I have accepted that there will not be a lot of games featuring a mixed autistic boy unless I make one, Triple AAA shoot for the popular and the lowest common denominator, in a place settled by Anglo people is Anglo people. If you go to India it will be Indian people, same with china and the like. They are philistines what do you expect?
Gender and sexuality only really matter If someone frames it as the thematic as discussion.
To date we only assume the gender and sexuality of most chars unless it is openly mentioned, which is reasonable as the vast majority of people are straight or at least bi, or we would have a damn hard time reproducing.
I would argue it is a disservice to the chars to assume their sexuality or gender identity but that is mostly rhetoric.

I am sorry If this was rushed, rude or abrasive.
I personally cannot stand this conversation when there are more fun or interesting things to talk about like making art instead of whinging about globs of meat and which ones you wish to fondle and how that should be in a game.
Hell I'd prefer it if this thread became let's make a game about a trans woman or a lesbian that would be cool.
I'd also like to say I have an appointment in like 2 hours and I need to get ready since the drive is about an hour, so If i appear rude or angry it's really just me rushing.
I will be here in the background.
If you want to talk about making a narrative driven game that doesn't focus on pandering which I assume a lot do.
Otherwise, we need to stop this complaint.
Triple A is making money on the ignorant masses, and will continue to do so even if there is a marginalization of minorities. They do not need to fix what isn't broke and they are the only people that are really making white straight men protagonists because they know they sell.
The history of gaming at large however paints a picture of diversity, I like I've said before I've see every type of char existent.
Most of them are not human.
Most of them taught me a bloody lot.
Also It's bad form to say:

they are a fantasy made up by guys scared that the minories are gonna take away their gamez

I may sound like a large jerk, because I'm rushing and more then a bit frustrated my 2hours on my previous rebuttal went to waste, so I understand if it is a pot calling the kettle black, but attacking a persons stance without talking to them directly is really rude.
Please don't do it.

 

[Lightknight]

I agree that I don't want some sort of agenda shoved down my throat in media that I consume.
.

this is what gets me though

[b/]what does it mean??[/b]

? That's the only line you focused on from my entire post? A post in which I express avid support for the ability of games to cater to other demographics in meaningful ways?

What I mean is that if you're going to have something like homosexuality in a game then put it in a game and let the character's actions and relationships show that they're gay just like in real life. Don't blare trumpets about it in-game and elbow ribs to draw insane attention to it. Yes, the guy or girl is gay. This is 2014, many of us grew up with gay friends so this isn't some shocking idea for us. Real gay people don't go around with a giant "I'm Gay" banner hanging over their head. It feels forced of fake or even like it's saying the person is not normal when more attention is drawn to it than would be to a heterosexual actor.

What I want to get to a point is where it's just normal in media. You know? Where the character kissing someone of the same gender isn't seen as a plot twist or big reveal of some kind. It really is as silly as if the plot twist was that the person was a certain race or gender (but gender is also used the same way, like we should be shocked that a girl can do something a guy usually does). I mean, by all means, depict gay characters and gay villains and gay heroes. But constantly pointing it out defeats the purpose of being inclusive. It maintains separateness and distinction when gays are just people too.

The agenda being an agenda is fine. The Last of Us included a really great gay character. They did it really well and we got to see a meaningful and loving gay relationship in a time of extreme hardship albeit at the bleakest point of the relationship. But I never once felt like it was getting rammed down my throat just to make me look at something they somehow think I have a problem with. The guy didn't wear a rainbow shirt and check all the gay checkboxes. He was just a man trying to live in a world that's gone to shit like everyone else.

So I apologize for the confusion but the "shoved down my throat" was the emphasis of my comment rather than the agenda. I don't like any agenda regardless of my belief in them to be knocked into my skull, over and over. I think doing so waters down the intention of the agenda and harms the story by breaking the fourth wall in an unnecessary manner.

People don't overcome bigotry just because you beat them over the head with rhetoric. Often times, that will just entrench them more. The best way is just to accurately convey the message that these are people too, like everyone else. Exposure to legitimate examples of the group they're bigoted towards often tells them that (if they can ever be convinced, I suppose, some people are just going to hate).

because you know what comes to mind when I think of something that has an "adgenda"? Star Trek, the original Star Trek

Uhurah Sulu and Checkov are there because Roddenberry specifically had the vision (or adgenda) of difference races/genders working together, they are put there on purpose, does that make it poltical? well fuck isn't everything political by definition?

That they were there is great. Visionary even. But I never felt particularly beat over the head with the fact that they were black. They never pointed at one another and gasped saying, "What's a black person doing on the bridge" or something nutso like that. Sulu was a fencer rather than a karate expert as far as I know. If racism was ever a story mechanic, it was to expose the needless hatefulness of bigotry. So it wasn't to point fingers at the person's race, it was to point a finger at an issue. It also wasn't every episode.

Shame that they didn't like Mexican people though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbVQdYuiWk8

Kind of a joke, but also kinda serious. Why weren't there Hispanics on the show when they specifically seemed to cast every race for the intention of showing our future lies in the human race acting together as one group? It's not like it would have been hard to cast someone in California that fit the bill if that's even where they filmed.

In the last of us "left behind" DLC Ellie has feelings for a girl, was there a "reason" for it? could they have given her a little boyfriend or kept her relationship platonic? yes they could have...but they didn't

was that "gay" DLC? was that unappealing to straight people? or was it just what it was? young romance that just happned to be gay

The writers from the Last of Us are absolutely brilliant. Do they have an agenda? Sure. But they don't use it as a gimmick. Being gay is just one faucet of these characters. As a heterosexual, I am not defined by my sexuality, it is merely one attribute of many. I would not like people to walk around saying, "Hey, this is Lightknight, he likes women" as the way to describe me like that's me.

Ellie isn't JUST that "character" from the Last of Us that has lesbian feelings. She's Ellie, a person with a wide range of interests and qualities and sure, homosexual or bisexual feelings are one of them.

I'd say that it isn't a gay game or gay DLC or whatever point you're trying to make with that. But it is a game that is supportive of homosexuals and doesn't pretend like they don't exist. Something that gives homosexuals something to identify with and to feel included.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

I'm a boy who likes boys too and honestly I couldn't care less about lgbt inclusion in games. I just want to have fun. The romances are just annoying anyway.

 

[Silvanus]

The writers from the Last of Us are absolutely brilliant. Do they have an agenda? Sure. But they don't use it as a gimmick. Being gay is just one faucet of these characters. As a heterosexual, I am not defined by my sexuality, it is merely one attribute of many. I would not like people to walk around saying, "Hey, this is Lightknight, he likes women" as the way to describe me like that's me.

Ellie isn't JUST that "character" from the Last of Us that has lesbian feelings. She's Ellie, a person with a wide range of interests and qualities and sure, homosexual or bisexual feelings are one of them.

I'd say that it isn't a gay game or gay DLC or whatever point you're trying to make with that. But it is a game that is supportive of homosexuals and doesn't pretend like they don't exist. Something that gives homosexuals something to identify with and to feel included.

I think that's precisely the point Vault101 was making. The inclusion of a gay character doesn't make something a "gay game"; it just makes it a game that features a gay character, which is exactly what they (and others) have been arguing for. Never have I seen anybody call for characters to be defined entirely by their sexuality.

Methinks Vault101's point was that a game does not need a sexuality-focused plot point to justify the inclusion of a gay character. It can be incidental (as straight romances often are). They're arguing against the people who say it must have a "reason"; the existence of gay people is reason enough.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm going to be completely frank: I would like more diversity on pretty much every front, but I'm used to games as they have been for the thirty-ish years I've been playing, so the lack is never really a dealbreaker for me.

I know we're supposed to "vote with our wallets," but I've always found single-issue voting in any form to be stupid. Well, I suppose if the issue was "genocide," but I've never been part of an election where that was the sole issue and I doubt gaming will start the trend.

I do, however, gravitate towards games with selectable characters/gender/skin/custom characters.

Why shoehorne in inane non-cis messages into a game that's story that everybody throws into the trash anyway?

Why is it shoehorning?

 

[Something Amyss]

quotas aren't a thing

Come on, Vault, wanting more of something is the exact same thing as mandating a specific number or ratio. Yo know that, it was covered in our Secret minority and women indoctrination camp totally legit business meeting.

 

[Lightknight]

The writers from the Last of Us are absolutely brilliant. Do they have an agenda? Sure. But they don't use it as a gimmick. Being gay is just one faucet of these characters. As a heterosexual, I am not defined by my sexuality, it is merely one attribute of many. I would not like people to walk around saying, "Hey, this is Lightknight, he likes women" as the way to describe me like that's me.

Ellie isn't JUST that "character" from the Last of Us that has lesbian feelings. She's Ellie, a person with a wide range of interests and qualities and sure, homosexual or bisexual feelings are one of them.

I'd say that it isn't a gay game or gay DLC or whatever point you're trying to make with that. But it is a game that is supportive of homosexuals and doesn't pretend like they don't exist. Something that gives homosexuals something to identify with and to feel included.

I think that's precisely the point Vault101 was making. The inclusion of a gay character doesn't make something a "gay game"; it just makes it a game that features a gay character, which is exactly what they (and others) have been arguing for. Never have I seen anybody call for characters to be defined entirely by their sexuality.

Methinks Vault101's point was that a game does not need a sexuality-focused plot point to justify the inclusion of a gay character. It can be incidental (as straight romances often are). They're arguing against the people who say it must have a "reason"; the existence of gay people is reason enough.

Right, I was explaining that my position wasn't at odds with Vault 101. The post was set up in response to me as if I'd said something wrong. She jumped on it as if I were saying that them having an agenda was bad.

 

[Silvanus]

Right, I was explaining that my position wasn't at odds with Vault 101. The post was set up in response to me as if I'd said something wrong. She jumped on it as if I were saying that them having an agenda was bad.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood, my bad.

 

[Lightknight]

Why shoehorne in inane non-cis messages into a game that's story that everybody throws into the trash anyway?

Why is it shoehorning?

Shoehorning, to force into an inadequate space. I have no idea what else Duster has said in this thread but if they're asking why force more messages into an already shitty game then it would strictly meet the criteria of that word. Shoehorning does not necessarily mean that what is being forced into inadequate space is bad. If Duster has made other comments to indicate that he's against it in general then forgive my lack of context in this response.

As far as putting in a bad game:

I mean, I don't think people really want it in shitty games, do they. I guess people could argue that any representation is at least representation but trying to make a message in a stupid way often comes off the same way as those awkward sexual harassment videos in school did. Laughable and dismissible.

Including it in a world like the Last of Us? That's meaningful. That contributes to the narrative of inclusiveness. Had it been put in Colonial Marines? Pointless if not counterproductive. That is, unless we're specifically going for quantity over quality. Then I guess that's more philosophical.

 

[Duster]

Why is it shoehorning?

I had a long discussion with a gentleman earlier, we discussed it. page 1-2.

 

[Lightknight]

Why is it shoehorning?

I had a long discussion with a gentleman earlier, we discussed it. page 1-2.

Oh, so if I see the right post on page 2 you appear to be disagreeing putting it in a game where it does not make sense to discuss sexuality. Is that correct?

If so, then the space it's being forced in would be inadequate due to not being the right context. Like if we're talking about turtles and someone responds by telling us they're gay. "Alright... nothing wrong with that... but we're discussing turtles"

I can understand that perspective. It's not like every game with a straight protagonist always specifies it as so. Like when stories go out of their way to prove that the protagonist has a case of the "not gays" when it doesn't make sense to specify that in context either.

 

[Duster]

Oh, so if I see the right post on page 2 you appear to be disagreeing putting it in a game where it does not make sense to discuss sexuality. Is that correct?

Well yeah the thing we agreed is that you can't really fit lgbt themes into most games in purposeful ways. Realistic LGBT endeavors are mostly social and it's a social movement. Outside the context of a romanticized anime world, such as catherine or persona, adults use their sexuality in only a small handful of decisions they make, most of those decisions have no reason to be in a video game. Dating drama, or lobbying for legal rights, don't translate well into video games(games like crusader kings 2 do a good job of sexual drama, but it's not a very poetic approach).

LGBT themes are at the middle and second to the top on maslows hierarchy of needs, and video games best cover the basic two needs of the hierarchy, such as survival of yourself, of your race, whatever, since ultimately they must have gameplay and execution of motor functions.

Here are some of my favorite games, of which LGBT themes wouldn't contribute anything significant to the narrative.

-homeworld
-neverwinter nights
-mario sunshine
-quake
-jedi knight: academy

some people would consider a game like quake to not even have a narrative, but it's still a classic game, once again video games are suited to cover other types of endeavors.

Now the guy I was talking about earlier stated that pseudo dynamic main characters means there is potential for purposeful LGBT themes, which could be. But from looking at something like mass effect 3(not one of biowares best games), or skyrim (The "choices" the game gave you where laughable, or boiling down to one option vs skipping the sidequest. Dark brotherhood was okay but most of the games decisions had no meaning) I don't see the potential.

 

[Therumancer]

**Edit:I'm aware this thread is me rambling just so I can talk about something other then #gamergate and feminism. As such thread topic is anything to do with LGBT and video games.

Original Text

Instead of the usual threads I make, I'm going to get personal about some things.

I'm homosexual if it isn't obvious. I'm a boy who likes boys.
I've gone further then that, I also like drag too, but I never done it myself yet. I can't quite afford the clothes.

I think I love this industry right now. What's being done right now and the diversity that is taking shape. Yes, this is a thread being positive about the idea of more gender-fluid games and LGBT representation.

I wanted this. No, I needed this. People may often seem me run about this thread, defending this and that about gamers who just don't care about these issues, but in all reality, I actually do care.

In fact, I never cared before until this actually became a thing. At first, I never thought about gay or trans characters in video games, but when they've started to pop up, there is . . . a certain feeling.

Please don't tell me I'm the only one. You don't care because you're playing games and having fun, but when you're allowed the option, when I can be a girly boy transvestite or a black guy who doesn't look like Balrog or Barrett in a game, well . . . giddy does not begin to describe the feeling.

For the first time ever, I can make comics without the worries about things like "will I have a audience?" I can say, I'll make something really gay and have no fear.

Recently I spent all the time defending straight person's interest. After all if I want to have my fuck toys they can have theirs right. But, I'm taking up the task of trying on the gay defense for a change.

I want to reinforce that despite what I always say, I really do care about inclusive or diversity. I didn't even think about the zombie fighting in sunset overdrive. As soon as I read that the character customization was gender-fluid, I was all ears. I played guilty gear for Bridget. I prefer the king of fighter games with Ash Crimson.

Does it matter if it makes sense in context? Honestly, I don't care. Truthfully, pandering and shoehorning doesn't bother me like most unless it's introduced subtlety. I usually only cringe when it's jarring.

Gay games for me is 100% approval rating. I want more. I want no punches pulled. I'm very sex positive too. Call it niche' all you want but I want my gay DOA. If it makes straight guys uncomfortable, go play elsewhere.

What do you guys think?

Let's be selfish about what we really want.

Well, two things. The first is simply people like you represent a very tiny portion of humanity. Men that aren't wired like you actually find gay sex rather disgusting even if they don't care what you do in privacy. As a result your dealing with a demand for very niche products, that aren't going to generate the sales needed to make companies happy. The video game industry today largely only catering to THE biggest audience they can find, while smaller ones, including some quite large, get neglected entirely. Man on Man themed games are somewhere down at the bottom of the pile of potential niche games, but I suppose you might see them if the game industry diversified away from simply focusing on AAA titles that need the most mainstream appeal possible, and went back to also developing "A", "B", and "C" quality games alongside the big AAA blockbusters.

That said, the whole reason why I'm posting this is because what you want already exists to some extent. Japan tends to produce a lot of pro and semi-pro quality games directed at sexual niche audiences. If you brows import sites and stuff like J-list you can probably find some games with the content you want, albeit your not going to be talking games to the standards of big time western productions. A few games of this sort like "Cho Aniki" (I think I spelled it right) have already achieved a cult following of sorts. Not being my cup of tea I haven't looked for this kind of stuff, but you might start by looking at sites like J-List and/or making requests of the people who run sites like that.

It might also help your case if you went out and supported some of the earlier mainstream efforts to bring homosexuality into gaming. For example "Phantasmagoria 2" features the protagonist coming to grips with his likely homosexuality as a major sub plot (dealing with his shrink if I remember). The game did not sell well, but is
available on things like GoG. My opinions on gay men are well known on this site, but I will say that if you don't represent the right way your not going to achieve much since the gaming industry will basically point to previous attempts to tap certain audiences and how they didn't work, not to mention noticing that even imports of certain material are relatively minor. Go find the most exploitive Yaoi games you can, order 10 copies (and pay for them) and encourage other people in your community to do the same, persist at it, and eventually someone might notice "hey, there has been a big spike in people buying gay porn games from Japan, maybe we can tap that market".

When it comes to gaming I mostly represent for RPGs and Survival Horror as opposed to sexual orientation, meaning I buy games of that sort even when they look kind of crappy to support the genera, and when one is decent I sometimes wind up buying it for more than one platform specifically to encourage more games of that sort being made. As a result of people like me it seems like Survival Horror in particular is undergoing an attempted resurgence, even if the AAA producers don't seem to really be able to figure out how to do it right (or perhaps more accurately lack the guts to try and do it right). The gay male community is a lot smaller, but could do something similar, though it would probably take some organization.

 

[Therumancer]

As long as they're gay, huh? Fair enough, I suppose.

Well, no, I did say, "just as with straight characters". I'm just saying that we can have some stories wherein sexuality/relationship is incidental, and others in which the romance/relationship is more fundamental to the plot.

I understand and agree with what you're saying.

In terms of games that emphasize romance/relationships, though, are you thinking something like Mass Effect and Dragon Age? I remember reading an interesting topic before about the sexuality of romance-able companions. Some people argued that in the interest of player choice that most/all companions should be bisexual.

In your opinion would that count towards greater diversity and openness, or does it do more harm than good by limiting heterosexual/homosexual/asexual characters?

The way I see it is that sexual orientation can be a big part of someone's identity, and tends to go along with certain behaviors and subcultures as much as people like to pretend otherwise (and this applies to all orientations). When a creator makes a character, especially in a story heavy game, they usually envision them in a specific way and that includes sexual orientation. If you start putting requirements on a game that all characters must effectively be sexual blank slates, it's going to hurt storytelling and some development, creators aren't going to appreciate that and be limited, much like any other form of enforced political correctness. As I see things the thing that matters is giving creators the freedom to create the characters they want, given time, you will of course see gays, bis, and aesexuals be represented, as is already the case. To me I think it's actually been counter productive for people to do things like attack Bioware for NOT having gay relationship options in a game, simply because they had put them into other games. It being a matter of what the creators wanted for each specific work, as opposed to any bigotry. When you start telling people involved in a creative process what they HAVE to do it hurts everyone, starting with them, and ultimately undermines the idea of even having a creative process.

It should also be noted that homosexuality is very rare, contrary to how certain people are trying to promote it as being everywhere. It's not a situation where there are some kind of major communities of people that compare sizably to the majority being discriminated against "just because" despite some attempts to promote it that way. One important thing to understand is that when it comes to gay men in particular, the sex act/intimacy between them is repugnant to pretty much anyone else who isn't wired that way. A lot of people don't care as long as they don't have to be around when that stuff goes on, but when you start telling the vast majority of people "you have to see something that disgusts you" they aren't going to react positively. This is what makes things different from other social issues like racism, and say simply having put black actors into TV shows and such. The OP here is basically not pushing so much for simply having the relationship options, but for having a lot of extreme gay content. When your looking at a product, you have to consider the majority audience whose money you happen to want. As a general compromise Bioware has done a reasonable job by having gay and bi-sexual characters in some of their games when the developers thought they fit in and had ideas for them. The thing is though people need to leave it alone, and let Bioware do it's thing, as opposed to attacking if they dare to not include gay relationship options at some point, the creative process cannot be forced nor should it be. What the OP seems to want is like a AAA version of "Lightning Warrior Raidy" (which I've played both games of being a pervy guy) replacing the lesbians with gay men, and being propped up on the from page of STEAM and all over the shelves at Gamestop. I personally just don't see that happening, games like that exist at such a humble level for a reason, and I'd imagine there are probably gay-male equivilents if someone wants to dredge import shops and such.