Times where the hero seems like the villain
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Rellik said it better than I could. The point I was getting at was that for most of the history of the character, Batman was one of the most morally restrained heroes in the DC universe. Frank Miller just reimagined him as being far more casually brutal than has ever been characteristic.Johnny Novgorod said:
I'm going with Gundam Wing. I've just started watching it now (at episode 4) and the good guys seem to murder soldiers in their sleep, even trainees. I'm a reservist so maybe this hits a little close to home but they seem to slaughter people for no real reason other than "they're soldiers so who cares". I don't hate it and don't want to make this some sort of weird social justice thing I just think these heroes are kind of monsters.
I disagree on your interpretations of Kirito's actions. Yes, he did go on vacation with Asuna. However, they had both been fighting for a couple of years on the front lines. They had both just admitted their feelings for each other before going through a traumatic experience where Kirito nearly died. They were mentally exhausted. They needed a vacation to recoup and to have a chance to better understand their relationship. A vacation during the middle of a long war can also serve to remind fighters what they are fighting for. This is why real military men periodically get shore leave and such.Lugbzurg said:
He did not hit on his sister/cousin. He never wavered in his dedication to Asuna. That is part of what tore at Suguha: realizing that she never had a chance with him. Also, I think marriage to cousins might be less taboo in Japan that it is in Western culture. I believe that when he said they still had a chance, he was referring to their friendship as pseudo-siblings. He didn't want her to give up on having any kind of relationship with him just because he was in love with someone else. He still cared about her as a friend/family and wanted to develop that kind of platonic intimacy. Before he went into SAO, he had been pushing her away because he found out she wasn't really his sister. When he came back, he saw how much he had hurt her and decided to try and mend the break between them.
Also, although the sensors kept people from feeling pain, they still had a general sense of touch. How else would Kirito know how heavy he preferred his swords? And the villain in question was a creepy borderline pedophile masochist (he was at least 10 years older than Asuna, he also knew she hated him, but still planned to violate her both mentally in the game, and then later in the real world while he watched a recording of his violations of her in the game. Even if she couldn't feel pain, she could still feel him touching her and that alone can be extremely traumatizing). The villain had also mentally kidnapped 300 people who had already endured the torture of SAO, and then subjected them to experiments. He planned to rewrite Asuna's brain if she didn't cooperate using the research he had gained. Sugou was an evil, twisted, depraved waste of space. I felt tainted just watching him sometimes. He deserved what he got for the wrongs he had inflicted on others. He had also planned to slowly increase the amount of pain that Kirito felt from having his own sword stabbed through his abdomen while Sugou violated Asuna in front of Kirito. I don't doubt that Sugou would have taken the pain sensors below 3 (the point when it begins to affect your real body) to torture Kirito. Sugou also takes great pleasure in seeing the pain and distress he causes Asuna (he says "You can't get an npc to make those kinds of faces"). Then, after loosing to Kirito in the game, he intercepts Kirito on his way to reunite with Asuna and attempts to kill him. The bastard deserved what he got.
Finally, when Kirito was praising Kayaba Akihiko/Heathcliff he was only doing so in an effort to expose how pathetic Sugou was. Although Kirito despised what Kayaba had done, he had a bit of respect for him as person. Kayaba was bold and unafraid of facing Kirito in a fair fight. Sugou on the other hand, rather than fight fair, used hacks to overwhelm Kirito and humiliate him. He never portrayed Kayaba as a hero, but as a better quality of person than Sugou could ever hope to be. Sugou was not only evil, he was pathetic and sad. Kayaba on the other hand was extremely twisted, but you could almost admire his gumption and his courage, even if you disagree with his actions. By praising Kayaba, Kirito forced Sugou to face how pathetic he really is. Once Kirito managed to gain access to Kayaba's admin profile, he reduced the pain sensors for both of them. If Sugou had managed to land a hit, Kirito would have felt pain and suffered in the real world too. Kirito even performed a hack for a legendary sword and gave it to Sugou before fighting with his normal weapon. So Kirito faced Sugou on even terms and even gave a far superior weapon to Sugou. Even with better equipment, Sugou is too much of a coward to do more than halfheartedly attempt to parry Kirito's attacks.
In short, I don't think Kirito belongs on this list. I do think that he tends to be more violent than a pure hero, but he has also been through a great deal of trauma. He also refrained from killing Sugou when he probably had ever right to do so. He chose the hirer road.
If you start as Itsuki in Phantom Breaker Battlegrounds, in the opening cutscene it is established that the enemies you will be facing shortly are mind washed, and yet Itsuki decides to take them out in the name of justice
I could understand taking them out in self defense, but taking them out in the name of justice when they are clearly mind washed is just stupid
Heroes of justice in general i can't stand after reading trough Fullmetal Daemon Muramasa
I could understand taking them out in self defense, but taking them out in the name of justice when they are clearly mind washed is just stupid
Heroes of justice in general i can't stand after reading trough Fullmetal Daemon Muramasa
Can't say I ever played it, but from what I've seen in Spoony's playthrough/review of FFXIII it seems like that's a group of sinister villains right there. The big bad guy of the game quite specifically spells out his plan: "Kill me so that we can unleash Orphan and destroy Cacoon!" Vanille even says "Well if we can save the world by doing nothing...then we'll do nothing!" or something along those lines.
And yet they decide to just go ahead and kill him anyways, despite the fact that he made no secret about the fact that he WANTS them to kill him as part of his master plan to destroy Cacoon. That is to say the team of "heroes" willfully set out on a course of action that they've been told numerous times will destroy the world.
Seems pretty villainous to me.
Then there's also the bit where Hope and Lightning end up somewhere where there's a giant glowing thing that is apparently producing food for the entire city...and Lightning almost immediately wants to destroy it specifically to cut off the food supply....................to the entire city...
And yet they decide to just go ahead and kill him anyways, despite the fact that he made no secret about the fact that he WANTS them to kill him as part of his master plan to destroy Cacoon. That is to say the team of "heroes" willfully set out on a course of action that they've been told numerous times will destroy the world.
Seems pretty villainous to me.
Then there's also the bit where Hope and Lightning end up somewhere where there's a giant glowing thing that is apparently producing food for the entire city...and Lightning almost immediately wants to destroy it specifically to cut off the food supply....................to the entire city...
You beat me to it. I was incredulous the whole time I was playing.Comic Sans said:
The "villain" is a severely bullied kid with a dead mom and a drunk bum of a dad, who finds a magic book and uses it to turn the world into the favorite video game of him and his friends.
And while, yes, Ivalice isn't perfect, it's still a huge step up from the real world in a lot of cases. I mean, yeah, the "villain" and the other royals and some Judges are total assholes, the combat laws are kind of unreasonable, and there are monsters all over the place outside towns, but large scale war is mostly gone, replaced by sport-like combat where no one dies (unless in a Lawless zone), healing magic makes healing injured and sick people easier, and magic is commonplace.
Not to mention how much it benefits the main characters.
-"Villain": I'm not bullied anymore, my mom is alive, my dad is really powerful and also has lots of time to care about me, and my teddy bear is now a living person who protects me and loves me!
-Girl pal: My hair is no longer an embarrassing shade of white! ...Oh, and I can kick tons of ass and be a hero, and I love that so much! This is what I've always wanted!
-Hero's bro: I CAN WALK AGAIN!
-Hero: ..."ESCAPISM IS WROOOOONG!!!"
-Everyone: But...this isn't escapism... This is actually REAL! Mewt literally replaced the entire world with a better one! And you're no longer an easily ignored loser!
-Hero: "I DON'T CARE ESCAPISM IS WROOOOOOONG!!!!" *kills all the anchors to the world, forcing it to return to normal, including killing the "villain's" "Mom" who is actually the personification/Avatar of all his wishes and desires for the new world, basically killing the "villain's" "mom" IN FRONT OF HIM which also kills off the "villain's" desire to maintain the new world, and forces him to accept going home.
...and honestly, I would have been FINE with that story if they had made it a plot point where you find out the Queen was the will of the book and was just using the "villain" by granting his wishes in order to rule the world and was just manipulating him.
But they didn't do that.
The make the Queen, the avatar for his desires, actually super super kind. When the hero confronts the "villain" and he yells at him that she's not his mom, she's just an illusion he made, the Queen literally says "Why must you torment him so?", while cradling the sobbing "villain" in her arms. And when the hero doesn't take no for an answer, she puts her life on the line fighting him in order to preserve the "villain's" happiness, and ultimately dies for it.
And when everything goes back to normal...
-The "villain" is still bullied pretty badly, but at least the "hero" and his friends are looking out for him and help him fight back, which takes the edge off.
-The girl pal has enough self confidence to not care that her hair is white (big whoop)
-The hero is now also confident. (big whoop)
-The hero's brother is still sick, constantly in the hospital and trapped in a wheelchair. -_- (Why didn't they show him get up and walk while leaning on his wheelchair at the ending?! That would have made that so much more tolerable!!)
In other words, going home gives them almost nothing, and in the case of the little bro, he goes back to his old shitty life.
...Seriously, the "hero" of that game was a total. freakin. ASSHOLE.
In fact, the ONE thing that the "hero" lost when the world was changed was his parents...AND HE NEVER EVEN BRINGS THAT UP. The ONE thing he's missing, he doesn't even care about. Everything he does goes back to "I just wanna go home. Living in this world is escapism! It's not healthy!", when it's pretty clear that Ivalice is alive and everyone in it is not an illusion. >_>
Light Yagami, from Death Note, acting like a villain throughout the entire series.
He's a mass murderer with a God complex. Not to mention the fact that he's a genius, and will do whatever it takes not to be caught by the police. He uses the Death Note he finds to rid the world of its criminals - seemingly a noble pursuit, sure, but it quickly turns questionable when the God complex kicks in and people you like start dying as a result of his overly convoluted (albeit awesomely put together) plans.
He's a mass murderer with a God complex. Not to mention the fact that he's a genius, and will do whatever it takes not to be caught by the police. He uses the Death Note he finds to rid the world of its criminals - seemingly a noble pursuit, sure, but it quickly turns questionable when the God complex kicks in and people you like start dying as a result of his overly convoluted (albeit awesomely put together) plans.
Anytime a movie has an excess of collateral damage in the middle of a city. It can be Transformers, Avengers, Pacific Rim, or the most notorious, Man of Steel. Ya know, when you punch a guy through two buildings and there happen to be people hiding somewhere within those buildings, you're no longer the hero.
At least the giant anti-hero in Godzilla 2014 (if you catch my drift) just doesn't care that there are inevitably people inside. But Ultraman would definitely annoy you in that regard. Yes he wouldn't smash the buildings of his own volition but the monster of the week is not under such boundaries. YOU CAN FLY ASSHOLE! PICK UP THE MONSTER AND MOVE THE FIGHT SOMEWHERE ELSE!Remus said:
You know, I've watched Death Note so many times I think i've figured out where the exact tipping point is in Light's first proper descent into lololol god complex. It's where he manages to fool Ray Pen(m?)ber, the FBI agent keeping an eye on potential Kira suspects into him giving L the green light to move onto other suspects. This would pretty much leave Light in the clear with the heat taken off him.Solbasa said:
Light instead gives in to his god mode and pride and makes it his mission to kill him instead, seemingly oblivious to the fact that he had already given them the slip and he could keep his identity as Kira safe instead of giving L the tip on which suspects to focus on for literally no reason. From what I remember it's roundabout here where Light is first animated with red hair and I don't need to tell you what that is supposed to symbolise.
OT: On another Code Geass character i'll have to go for Lelouch's counterpart Suzaku. Oh my god, the amount of shit he does is painful. I can see his point but it fails to stand up when the current Britannia is so irredeemably corrupt and broken trying to change it from within will simply not work. If I was Suzaku I would have jumped ship onto Zero's side post Season 1: Episode 4.
Usually I don't go for ends justify the means logic (see Death Note) but with Code Geass I make an exception. Also I love the line that goes something like "I have to win even through immoral means to make all the previous deaths mean something"
Lelouch while having his evil moments and questionable methods has a plan. He knows what he wants to do and gets it done, even the crisis of conscience and lack of motivation episodes get sorted relatively quickly. Suzaku runs around like a headless chicken only having some half baked "strategy" that can literally be shut down in an instant by the emperor simply turning him down. He also contradicts himself every few minutes in R2. It's maddening, it really is.
The main guy in the movie Limitless
***SPOILERS***
The guy gets hooked on a magic drug that cures him of his laziness and idiocy. He uses he new found powers to become personally wealthy, fuck other people's girlfriends, possibly kill prostitutes and lie to the girl he ostensibly loves.
The movie portrays all this as okay as the 'hero' is some blue collar shlub whereas the big revealed antagonist is a self-made businessman so he's 'bad'.
No negative consequences comes to the hero at the end btw. Even the murders are sorta just forgotten about and he gets everything he ever wanted free of strings.
Fuck this movie.
***SPOILERS***
The guy gets hooked on a magic drug that cures him of his laziness and idiocy. He uses he new found powers to become personally wealthy, fuck other people's girlfriends, possibly kill prostitutes and lie to the girl he ostensibly loves.
The movie portrays all this as okay as the 'hero' is some blue collar shlub whereas the big revealed antagonist is a self-made businessman so he's 'bad'.
No negative consequences comes to the hero at the end btw. Even the murders are sorta just forgotten about and he gets everything he ever wanted free of strings.
Fuck this movie.
Oh I know. I've never got far enough into Atlas Shrugged to get to the 70-page filibuster, but I am more or less familiar with what it says.Dr. McD said:
I actually do think it is possible for a decent, level-headed writer to make a convincing case for the virtues or selfishness. Needless to say that this writer is NOT Rand or Goodkind.
The whole Cerberus thing in Mass Effect 3.
The main point of Mass Effect 3 was about allying people together for a greater cause but the sacrifices needed in such a conflict was brought up often as well.
But right from the get go I'm told Cerberus is evil and that we can never ever work with them cause they're so evil. Now my first playthrough of Mass Effect was on the PS3 meaning I skipped the first game and had to start on 2 (not that it really mattered when it came to Cerberus) so my whole experience with Cerberus was pretty damned good. They give you everything you could ask for and more and yet the Paragon actions in the game involved Shepard basically throwing a tantrum and actively trying to screw over the guys who brought him back from the dead.
Then in the third game instead of bartering an alliance with the very wealthy and powerful group the Alliance deems it more necessary to waste time and resources on battling them because Cerberus is "unethical". Meanwhile Shepard has the option of redeeming the Geth, a huge threat and menace to the galaxy and a group that Shepard and many others would be well justified in eradicating.
Now I know as the game goes on you find out that Cerberus is up to some really sketchy stuff and it becomes clear that the whole organisation has been corrupted but despite all that they still get results. Pretty damn good results from what I remember.
I spent the whole game trying to get my Shepard to join with Cerberus and got quite annoyed that I wasn't allowed to. If Shepard and the Alliance had allied with Cerberus countless lives could have been saved and the Deus ex Machina may not have even been necessary given Cerberus' recent breakthrough and the support of their forces. But nope, they're evil and we won't ally with them or even use their tech, because it's evil tech.
Then after all that, the supposed "good" ending involved wiping out entire AI species (that were on par with human intelligence and were capable of forming relationships) and sending the universe back into a technological stone age. Or you could go the "evil" route and not only neutralise the Reapers but also use them and their tech for yourself and the greater good of the galaxy.
The main point of Mass Effect 3 was about allying people together for a greater cause but the sacrifices needed in such a conflict was brought up often as well.
But right from the get go I'm told Cerberus is evil and that we can never ever work with them cause they're so evil. Now my first playthrough of Mass Effect was on the PS3 meaning I skipped the first game and had to start on 2 (not that it really mattered when it came to Cerberus) so my whole experience with Cerberus was pretty damned good. They give you everything you could ask for and more and yet the Paragon actions in the game involved Shepard basically throwing a tantrum and actively trying to screw over the guys who brought him back from the dead.
Then in the third game instead of bartering an alliance with the very wealthy and powerful group the Alliance deems it more necessary to waste time and resources on battling them because Cerberus is "unethical". Meanwhile Shepard has the option of redeeming the Geth, a huge threat and menace to the galaxy and a group that Shepard and many others would be well justified in eradicating.
Now I know as the game goes on you find out that Cerberus is up to some really sketchy stuff and it becomes clear that the whole organisation has been corrupted but despite all that they still get results. Pretty damn good results from what I remember.
I spent the whole game trying to get my Shepard to join with Cerberus and got quite annoyed that I wasn't allowed to. If Shepard and the Alliance had allied with Cerberus countless lives could have been saved and the Deus ex Machina may not have even been necessary given Cerberus' recent breakthrough and the support of their forces. But nope, they're evil and we won't ally with them or even use their tech, because it's evil tech.
Then after all that, the supposed "good" ending involved wiping out entire AI species (that were on par with human intelligence and were capable of forming relationships) and sending the universe back into a technological stone age. Or you could go the "evil" route and not only neutralise the Reapers but also use them and their tech for yourself and the greater good of the galaxy.
The Inheritance Cycle is mostly just boring (it's got dragons in it, so I managed to read the whole thing, but it's absolute trash in hindsight) but there's several moments moments in it where our titular character is supposed to be some sort of paragon angel of virtue, but the actions he takes are questionable at best. That's the problem with flawless characters: their flaws come off as bad writing.
The most prominent to me is this scene midway through Brisingr where he kills a guard. Now, killing him? He kinda had to do that so that nobody would find out where he was, fine. What he didn't need to do was drag it out for a full page and a half, letting the guy grow so terrified that (iirc) he pisses himself. What's odd is that love interest - i mean, Arya - questions him on it at first, but he says one sentence and suddenly SHE'S apologizing for no reason. Odd thing is, the scene could've worked, except it doesn't really go anywhere or serve a legitimate purpose. It might've been cool if Eragon had used this moment to reflect on just how far removed from humanity he's become... but that doesn't happen. Ever. It's really kind of vexxing >.>
In the first book, there's this moment where they have a captured slaver and Eragon's companion slays him without a thought. Eragon protests this... even though there was literally nothing else that could've been done and standing there talking about it was a waste of time while they were being pursued. It doesn't make Eragon look compassionate, it makes him look stupid!
And then in Brisingr (again) they imply that he was going to murder a 8 year old child... actually, not even that old. Maybe a year or two. She just had the body of a small child because Eragon screwed up in the first book and did something stupid.
Inheritance is full of scenes like that.
Also, in Mass Effect 3, you can shoot Mordin in the back for trying to cure the Genophage.
The most prominent to me is this scene midway through Brisingr where he kills a guard. Now, killing him? He kinda had to do that so that nobody would find out where he was, fine. What he didn't need to do was drag it out for a full page and a half, letting the guy grow so terrified that (iirc) he pisses himself. What's odd is that love interest - i mean, Arya - questions him on it at first, but he says one sentence and suddenly SHE'S apologizing for no reason. Odd thing is, the scene could've worked, except it doesn't really go anywhere or serve a legitimate purpose. It might've been cool if Eragon had used this moment to reflect on just how far removed from humanity he's become... but that doesn't happen. Ever. It's really kind of vexxing >.>
In the first book, there's this moment where they have a captured slaver and Eragon's companion slays him without a thought. Eragon protests this... even though there was literally nothing else that could've been done and standing there talking about it was a waste of time while they were being pursued. It doesn't make Eragon look compassionate, it makes him look stupid!
And then in Brisingr (again) they imply that he was going to murder a 8 year old child... actually, not even that old. Maybe a year or two. She just had the body of a small child because Eragon screwed up in the first book and did something stupid.
Inheritance is full of scenes like that.
Also, in Mass Effect 3, you can shoot Mordin in the back for trying to cure the Genophage.
God of War. I think I'll say God of War. Kratos MAYBE had an arc in the first game. The things he did in GOW2 and GOW3 went beyond "brutal and dark" to "sinister and immoral." Seriously, never had I rooted against the main character so hard. I would have had more respect for the story if they'd just said you WERE playing the villain...
Instead, Kratos kept up that arrogant pretense that the world owed him something, even as he became what he beheld. I just cannot understand how he justified doing to the ENTIRE WORLD worse things than were done to him, and seeing himself in the right. Perhaps he didn't care anymore, and that's okay. However, once you take that line of reasoning, you can no longer be screaming "REVENGE FOR GREAT JUSTICE" anymore...
Oh, but what about his poor family? To that, I reply that his family has been kicking back in the Fields of Elysium. As Kratos is a god, I don't see how he couldn't just visit them, as opposed to burning down all of creation. If it isn't clear yet, I hate Kratos. When I played GOW, with my friends watching, we'd revel in letting him die and seeing him fail. I've never seen my gamer group have such bile for a protagonist before...which makes him a great villain, I suppose.
Instead, Kratos kept up that arrogant pretense that the world owed him something, even as he became what he beheld. I just cannot understand how he justified doing to the ENTIRE WORLD worse things than were done to him, and seeing himself in the right. Perhaps he didn't care anymore, and that's okay. However, once you take that line of reasoning, you can no longer be screaming "REVENGE FOR GREAT JUSTICE" anymore...
Oh, but what about his poor family? To that, I reply that his family has been kicking back in the Fields of Elysium. As Kratos is a god, I don't see how he couldn't just visit them, as opposed to burning down all of creation. If it isn't clear yet, I hate Kratos. When I played GOW, with my friends watching, we'd revel in letting him die and seeing him fail. I've never seen my gamer group have such bile for a protagonist before...which makes him a great villain, I suppose.
If anyone has read Marvel comics since civil war that's all most of them are :/
It's actually quite annoying.
It's actually quite annoying.
After the first game nearly EVERYTHING about Kratos from GOW. For me he went from a great protagonist to a terrible POS. TBH you could argue he was never a hero in the first place. It made most of the series only rentals.