To me Game of Thrones will never be the same (S4E8 discussion)

[Magmarock]

Not gonna spoil the books so i am just going to say that you might want to watch the next episode before deciding to quit.

Oh of course, I'm not ready to stop watching it just yet, but this is the first time GoT has disappointed me in terms of build up and I feel less enthusiastic about the outcomes of the other characters. Not to the point were I'll stop watching it, but to a lager point then before.

but I was expecting and hopping that he'd kill Gregor Clegane and maybe take out a few Lannisters before leaving or biting the dust.

No real spoilers, just a reminder and a hint:

He did kill Gregor; There's a good reason why Oberyn is called "The Red Viper"...

That is kind of a spoiler but I already know.

Personally, I think Oberyn's death is one of Martin's best subversions of common tropes since Eddard Stark's death.

Consider for a moment - Oberyn is introduced at a point where we're starting to run low on major characters. Things are simmering down, most major conflicts are resolved and we're at a low boil, so to speak. Then, a new character is introduced! He is cool, awesome, has a rich backstory and history behind him, represents a part of Westeros we've heard next to nothing about, he's honorable yet mischievous and his quest is one people can get behind. He ties into the existing plot of the books well and sets up for future conflicts with the Lannisters.

His duel with the Moutain is also set up wonderfully - this new guy gets a scene to cement his awesomeness and to show that he'll be dedicated to fucking with the Lannisters, it also serves to get Tyrion off the hook (what with him being the most loved character in the books), a thoroughly vile character gets his comeuppance (The Mountain pretty much has no redeeming qualities and is one of the most deplorable people in Westeros, which is saying a lot) and it's all tied up with a neat little bow. Also, since he was a newly introduced major character, we all assumed it would provide him with at least some amount of plot armor.

Then the Mountain murders the fuck out of him. And the outcome makes perfect sense.

Yes, Oberyn is a skilled fighter, but The Mountain is pretty much the top dog in that regard. And yet Oberyn was winning. He would have won, but he was too awesome for his own good. This is a man not used to things not turning out his way, a man used to being so good at everything that failure isn't really an option. And while he is generally right in that assumption, it also blinded him. Mixed with his burning desire for revenge, and not just revenge, but also a public admission of crimes, he dropped his guard. His own arrogance (deserved as it might have been) and his rage together clouded his senses at a critical moment, and that's all it takes when facing someone like Gregor Clegane.

The show handled it very well, too. They did a great job of building Oberyn up, both as a womanizer, a skilled fighter and a sly schemer. He was everyone's favorite character within a few episodes of his appearance. He was perfect in amost every regard. His setup was even better than in the books (at least in my opinion).

Then the fight came and it was also done just right. The fighting styles of the two champions was distinct, there was some back and forth, but eventually Oberyn's superior skill prevailed. And at the critical moment, he hesitated, blinded by his arrogance and thirst for vengeance.

And finally, his death was brutal. Personally, I found the fight of his shattered teeth dropping to the floor somehow even more disturbing than the whole eye gouging, skull squishing part. The Mountain was literally breaking him, as if Oberyin wasn't a person, but a piece of meat. And the point was made:

You don't get to win just because you are in the right.

You don't get a pretty death just because you're cool and everyone likes you.

Valar Morghuils

It's about winning because you're cool and everyone likes you. Nor is it about being different for the sake of being different. Yes any other show would have Onreyn win and there's a reason for that. In screen writing 101 when you build up to something it's good to leave with a pay off that leaves the audience satisfied and not cheated. Gregor Clegane was slow and clumsy while Obreyn was fast and graceful. Me moved around like a ninja proving that speed is better then strength. Without reading the books, it would've been immensely satisfying to see Obreyn kill Gregor. Other way around might be brutal and not falling into tropes, but that doesn't stop it from being a bitter disappointment. Now you know why other shows don't so that kind of stuff.

 

[Ipsen]

All, because the bad guys have had one too many victories. Joffrey's death was one victory for the good guys out of a dozen for the bad guys and each season thus far has ended with a very dark and mean spirited tone.

Spoiler

Ned Stark's death, Black Water, Red Wedding, and now Oberyn

I get where you're coming from.

To contribute an...oh so schlocky comparison, I'm reminded of my days watching WWE wrestling (circa Attitude/DX/HHH era). There were good guys, had the most awesome moves, raised the crowds but at the end of major events, HHH would still hold the title. Dynamics occurred, stories played out, and it was quite clear that a story was taking place, but there was still the sense of resolving at zero-sum, back to square one. That bored me enough as a kid to stop watching (or perhaps I just developed some taste).

GoT is miles ahead of WWE storylines, but I think it's falling to the same tune. I think some of us expect the arc of resolution to start appearing; We KNOW the bad guys are proven to be effective at holding their power at this point, we also know that stakes are raised by the apocalyptic forces of the White Walkers + Targaryen Mother and Dragons on the move, so things won't stay as they are, for the good or the bad in Westeros. With the rate the 'good guys'fan favorites are shedding the mortal coil, it's looking like the end will be the bad guysLannisters prevailing over the two, or Westeros gets rekt. Something new would have to be introduced or exposed to, well, keep the end we can see from coming.

But you know, the story is so damn good, I'd even see the Lannisters win it all.

 

[The Lunatic]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

Pretty much summed up my feelings towards it.

Just seemed really unbelievable.

I mean, yeah. It's hard to complain about realism in a show with dragons and frost giants, but, it just seemed a divergence from the usual sense of normality to almost comic-book levels.

 

[elvor0]

It's about winning because you're cool and everyone likes you. Nor is it about being different for the sake of being different. Yes any other show would have Onreyn win and there's a reason for that. In screen writing 101 when you build up to something it's good to leave with a pay off that leaves the audience satisfied and not cheated. Gregor Clegane was slow and clumsy while Obreyn was fast and graceful. Me moved around like a ninja proving that speed is better then strength. Without reading the books, it would've been immensely satisfying to see Obreyn kill Gregor. Other way around might be brutal and not falling into tropes, but that doesn't stop it from being a bitter disappointment. Now you know why other shows don't so that kind of stuff.

Surely you've just described exactly why GoT is so refreshing and intersting to watch? I haven't read the books either, but a major selling point is that it /doesn't/ go for Screen Writing 101. If we were going for Screenwriting 101, which in terms of narrative is the "big book of cliche", Ned Stark would still be alive and The Red Wedding never would've happened. GoT doesn't subscribe to the big book of cliche because it's cliche. Like you said, any other story would've had Oberyn win. Which yes, would be satisfying, but you'd know it was coming a mile off, the hero doesn't lose.

The motif that "anyone can die" has been present throughout every season, and introduces something that's seldom found in narrative these days: tension. Yeah the hero fighting the villian may be tense, but we know the heroes going to win, because it's a story. I still thought the fight between The Viper and The Mountain could go either way, because GoT /has/ tension. Nobody (except Tyrion) has plot armor, making every victory for the good guys seem even more deserved and happy. At the same time, it makes the Villians genuinely feel powerful and threatening. But people don't die out of magic plot devices out the wazoo, they die for perfectly plausable reasons, for Oberyn, it was putting his guard down, not stabbing mountain in the throat and standing right next to an 8 ft man trying to kill him that weighed 450 ibs and has a reputation for his freakish strength just to attempt to get a confession he was never going to get because his rage and lust for revenge blinded him to the danger of the situation because The Mountain doesn't give a fuck.

But for Screenwriting 101? All the set pieces were there; a heroic character come to eek out justice against a certainly evil foe, clearing the wrongly accused, in a classic "Hero vs Vilian" arena fight. And Oberyn did win, like many people have said, if he'd just finished it instead of trying to get him to confess, he'd still be alive. What made his death even more brutal, was that for once, it looked like everything was okay, The Mountain didn't win the fight during THE FIGHT, as far as Oberyn and the audience were concerned, Oberyn had won, and like Oberyn it seemed okay to release tension and drop your guard. Neither Oberyn or me or you thought The Mountain was anymore of a threat. Then The Mountain crushes his head. He wasn't focused, he wasn't /in/ fighting mode, then he was unexpectedly thrown on his back by a dead man, he'd be winded then borderline unoncious after that punch.

The Mountain isn't a villian, he's just an evil borderline fantastical brute that likes to kill things. Which he does, when the moment presents, all within 4 seconds. Oberyn had no chance of recovering from the moment Mountain grabbed him. Even if you /want/ to ignore the books, The Mountain is supposed to be 8ft tall and freakish strong. Obviously they had to cut it down to 7 for the series, because you go find me a man that looks like what the mountain is described as. But otherwise, the combat is realistic, and no amount of ninja moves are going to save you from a man that strong crushing your throat and gouging your eyes out.

If you're feeling biter dissapointment, then the writers have fully succeeded in entwining you with the characters. Because bitter dissapointment is just the tip of how Tyrion and Sand are feeling right now. If you felt relief and elation when The Viper floored The Mountain, you felt just like Tyrion. If you felt mounting horror as The Mountain grabbed Oberyn, you felt just like Sand, Oberyn and Tyrion did. If you feel exhausted...you get my drift. The point is, the barrier between character and you is gone, immersion is total.

"If you want justice, you've come to the wrong place"

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

I'm with the others here who ask "who are the good guys?"
there are plenty who fight with honour, but honour doenst mean good. first time we meet Ned he executes someone for running away from snow zombies. what a douche

 

[Silvanus]

The moment is quite a crushing one, yes. That said, most of the complaints aren't very well thought through.

It's not unrealistic. People get blinded by their own rage/ motivations every day, and Oberyn was a man confronting his sister's killer after years of nursing a wound. As Bronn said, one slip-up. It's not an unrealistic ending to the fight.

As for the bad guys always getting their way; we're not at the end of the story yet. We're not even close. Even the books haven't finished yet (there are at least two more yet to come out). Think of how many stories attempt to convince the audience that the protagonists are in a really tight spot, but never quite manage, because it's clear everything will turn out alright! A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the very few that truly manages to make the ending unpredictable.

Bitterness, resentment, etc, are all emotional responses, and very valid and necessary ones. If you feel this strongly, then you're invested in the story, and the story is doing its job.

I'm with the others here who ask "who are the good guys?"
there are plenty who fight with honour, but honour doenst mean good. first time we meet Ned he executes someone for running away from snow zombies. what a douche

In Ned's defence, he didn't know he was running away from snow zombies-- Others/ White Walkers haven't been seen for thousands of years. How would you react if somebody deserted the people he'd sworn to help, and when an explanation was demanded, began their explanation with dinosaurs?

As for who the good guys are... depends entirely on your perspective, which is greatly to the story's credit, in my view. A lot of people are Daenerys supporters, or you could root for Jon Snow or the other surviving Stark kids. I'm mostly in Stannis' camp (though not in Melisandre's).

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

I honestly think there are no 'good' factions in ASoIaF, merely sympathetic characters.
Team #Davos4Lyfe



I'll see myself out...

 

[Creedsareevil]

There is so much wrongness in this thread...

First, i would like to remind everyone about the MAIN-EVENT that will shape westeros:
The upcoming war with the whitewalkers. ALL storys so far are side storys to THAT.


Ok, about your feelings about this recent death:

All the characters that we knew would die (knew it for for over 13 years) got good actors casted. The Casting decisions so far are amazing and it elevated many characters from "evil guy" to "aawww did he have to die..." status.

Tyrion lannister: I think it goes without saying that Peter dinklage has elevated tyrions charachter a lot in the eyes of the viewers.
We like the guy, he is a very good actor. And with that in mind we tend to overlook many of tyrions flaws, even find them charming.
He is prideful. He craves respect. He thinks he earned hit. We think he earned it. HE DID by defending Kings Landing. But his peers deny him again and again.

How did tyrion end up where he is now? I tell you:

After the blackwater he got that gut-punch from tywin telling him exactly in no uncertain terms how he feels about him. Heck, tywin gave all of his children a "the reason you suck speech". That has left tyrion emotionally stirred up, the whole sansa marriage thing ruining his relationship with shae also contributed greatly to him becoming pre occupied with, well, not being a competent schemer.
The old tyrion would have piked up on the plot to "off the joff". But not this emotionally beat up guy.
No, he is where he is now because his pride and his cravings for respect and recognition have made him vulnerable and i think this whole ordeal he is now going through can only serve to humble him and refocus his mind on important matters. I do not think that after all the buildup he got hes going to end with an execution.


As for the the bad guys winning more than the good guys:
eh. There are no good or bad guys.
Only the competent and the less competent.
Robb stark for example: He pissed of 2 of his core allies, the karstarks and the Freys. He could have delivered a shocking blow to tywin by killing jamie. He did nothing of the sort. He shat on his allies and more importantly proved that his word is not worth anything. It did cost him everything.

So far, Tywin has been excellent at both engineering pitfalls for others as well as working on the fly with whatever the situation gave him. Just look at the last few episodes:
"Joff is dead?!" Well good, now we can have a king that is more tractable.
He reinforces his ties with the tyrells, gets to force his golden son to take his place as proper heir and gets rid of tyrion.
Heck, he even hoped to be able to mend the rift between dorne and the Red keep...

Or look at stannis. Yes he got beaten but he is still there, also ate from the humble pie and his most loyal ally is rising up to occasion and is on the way to be a tremendously good hand.


In th end, westeros has to hope that a competent man sits on the throne when the walkers come knocking....

 

[Stu35]

He felt like the new hero the show desperately needed.

I think this attitude speaks volumes about the series as a whole and why I find it so refreshing.

Heroes are mortal. Every story in the world has immortal heroes who somehow survive incredible odds, or those heroes who's mortality is a harbinger of greater things and happier endings to come.

I got into the series because Sean Bean was in it, and I fucking love Sean Bean - in season 1 it was clear that the Starks were the heroes, they were the Stoic, Noble Northmen who stand against the corruption and evils of the South - this speaks greatly to me as a Yorkshireman (I think, as a county, we collectively relate to the Starks).

Then Ned Stark dies. No matter - the death of our hero only allows the true hero (Robb Stark) of the piece to come along, win the war, and restore peace and justice to the world...

Yeah, you know where this is going.


Point is, this story is so visceral for me BECAUSE main characters are not only subject to the same rules of mortals, but they're subject to them in the same way as everyone else - They don't just die heroic deaths (although some do), but they die because life just isn't fair.


I've read the books now, and to be honest I've actually started to go off George RR Martin as a writer towards the end (won't stop me buying and reading the shit out of the last two if he survives long enough to publish them), but I've never truly been introduced to a story where main characters can die from something as simple, something as cruelly un-narrative as an infected cut.

I'm sure the concept existed before (as indeed the first book in aSoIaF was published in what, 1996? - Apparently a good friend of mine recommended 'Game of Thrones' to me when we were in high school(late 90s early 00s), I read the blurb and said it looked shit... Funny how the world works), simply saying that this series ultimately introduced me to the fact that stories can have that and still be good.



We live in a world where everybody is trying to shove "gritty realism" down our throats (without ever letting a protagonist die unless it was to allow a secondary protagonist to avenge them), so to see so many "protagonist" characters dying is nice. Even so far as it is heartbreaking.

 

[Loonyyy]

I honestly think there are no 'good' factions in ASoIaF, merely sympathetic characters.
Team #Davos4Lyfe



I'll see myself out...

You don't need to see yourself out. Onion Knight for the Iron Throne! (Come on, who could be a better king?)

 

[TerranV]

Then Ned Stark dies. No matter - the death of our hero only allows the true hero (Robb Stark) of the piece to come along, win the war, and restore peace and justice to the world...

Yeah, you know where this is going.

The funny thing is looking back, its obvious Ned and Robb were red herrings to destract us from the actual "heroes":
-Jon Snow
-Arya Stark
-Sansa Stark
-Bran Stark
-Daenerys
-Tyrion
Although I still don't expect them all to survive the series.

 

[grey_space]

quote

The Viper got cocky, played to the crowd instead of remaining focused and aware of his opponent and got swept. The Mountain rolled on top of him and then killed him with his bare hands.

Death by Hubris. Which suits Martin's modus operandi.

Ned died because of his honour and love for his familly, King Robert died because for his wilful blindness and drunken risk-taking, And Rob died because he thought all wars were fought only on the battlefield.

Oberyn was arrogant and overly confident in his skills, and in his haste to seek out the true killer of his sister and her children, lost track of what he should have been doing, which was staying the fuck away from a grappling match with a psycho called the Mountain

Is it a shame because the character was awesome? Most definitely. Was it perfectly plausible within the context and logical framework of that particular fight?

Also most definitely.

Poor Tyrion. He is proper fucked.

 

[Carrots_macduff]

whenever a popular character dies i always hear people complain and start spitting bitter contemptuous insults at the George and showrunners, because they thought that person was going to save the world, it happened with Ned, it happened with Robb and it happened this week with Oberyn.

You will enjoy this story much more when you stop thinking you know where its going.

 

[Edl01]

So in other words; "I got attatched to a Game of Thrones character and I'm so shocked they died".

This thread happens every year, when some popular character dies. I predicted Oberyn would lose as someone who has not read the fourth book, simply because it doesn't seem right for someone else to kill the Mountain while The Hound is on some random task on the other side of the world.
As for the complaint that The Mountain shouldn't have been able to kill Oberyn; well that's just straight up wrong. The Mountain isn't just a normal Knight, the guy is 7 feet tall, has been in countless wars and is so tough the Hound is afraid of him. The question for me wasn't if Oberyn would win - but how he would triumph over someone like the Mountain. As I said, I really don't think him losing to the Mountain was very suprising and it isn't something that I have found all that shocking.

 

[Creedsareevil]

Besides, you might want to go re-watch some of the more entertaining scenes for a bit. We've got a grand total of ABSOLUTELY NOTHING happening for roughly three more seasons once this one ends.

The show authors are well aware of the blight that is the whole ***** arc....

They would be utterly retarded to not weer off HARD, from that black hole of boredom. Heck, i'd rather have a freaking naruto/bleach moment here where the show utterly starts cartwheeling off into some so far minor detail and spins a story around that...

War of th usurper flashbacks? Aegon's conquest? The adventureres of cousin beetlesmash?

 

[Magmarock]

As good as the writing in the shows are I felt that this time they over did it.

Well it had to be done otherwise the books and the show would have to diverge quite severely.

I think it came as less of a shock in the books because in this was very shortly after the Red Wedding. And since Oberyn wasn't a POV character we don't really know him all that well compared to how charismatically he was playing in the show.

It's unfortunate but this descision was taken WAAAAAAAAAY back whe GRRM wrote 'A Storm of Swords'.

That's a good point. Perhaps he wasn't supposed to be so likeable or perhaps after reading the books and still filming season 3 they could've thought of something. Not sure, deviate from the books annoys people following the books too closely still annoys people. All part of the challenge and knowing that not everything translates well from book to show.

Now that I think of it the little stones on Joffey's head a good example. I bet in the book you imagined it okay but in the show it just looks silly.

It's about winning because you're cool and everyone likes you. Nor is it about being different for the sake of being different. Yes any other show would have Onreyn win and there's a reason for that. In screen writing 101 when you build up to something it's good to leave with a pay off that leaves the audience satisfied and not cheated. Gregor Clegane was slow and clumsy while Obreyn was fast and graceful. Me moved around like a ninja proving that speed is better then strength. Without reading the books, it would've been immensely satisfying to see Obreyn kill Gregor. Other way around might be brutal and not falling into tropes, but that doesn't stop it from being a bitter disappointment. Now you know why other shows don't so that kind of stuff.

Surely you've just described exactly why GoT is so refreshing and intersting.

Was refreshing. It won't stay refreshing for long if it keeps doing it. I like Game of Thrones and I want to keep liking it but now the next shock will be if something bad happens to Cersei... again that is. I hope it does.

I edited it. Sorry for the slip, I didn't mean to spoil it. At any rate the show is diverging from the books as we speak. There's no way it could end after book 7 is published.

Sorry for the late reply. I know you didn't mean to spoil it, but the damage was done and I was frustrated with you.

But I've gotten over and I will answer your question from a previous post. When Joffrey died that was a victory for the good guys and I'm not just saying that I'm actually quoting George RR Martian when he was question about Joffrey's death. He said something along the lines of giving the good guys a small victory to keep the audience invested or something. I don't know the full quote.

Point is, while the the show isn't exactly black and white when it comes to god vs evil it's pretty easy to tell who is the good and bad guy between Obreyn and Gregor.

 

[Loonyyy]

Then Ned Stark dies. No matter - the death of our hero only allows the true hero (Robb Stark) of the piece to come along, win the war, and restore peace and justice to the world...

Yeah, you know where this is going.

The funny thing is looking back, its obvious Ned and Robb were red herrings to destract us from the actual "heroes":
-Jon Snow
-Arya Stark
-Sansa Stark
-Bran Stark
-Daenerys
-Tyrion
Although I still don't expect them all to survive the series.

Or there could be no heroes, and just factions with different aims, ideologies, beliefs and histories who all are working towards various goals.

Jon Snow's as useful as a mopey teenager, suprised he isn't taking that bastard sword to his wrists, Sansa's got nothing going for her, Bran, admittedly is doing something, just completely unrelated to the politics and wars which everyone else is participating in, Arya (There seems to be a theme here, someone may still be sore than a certain couple of Paladin types lost their heads because they were a bit thick) is on a mission to stab people who she dislikes.

Super heroic Starks there.

Then Daenerys, who's so heroic, she crucifies people, and occupies a city which she can't hold, and of which a large portion of the population hates her. Oh, and she's got big firebreathing lizards that she can't control. And she occassionally has tantrums and calls for people's heads.

Tyrion, who hates everyone around him for the hatred he percieves they have (Not incorrectly) for him, particularly his own family. And would gladly see them all burn, and he'd like to hold the torch to Tywin and Cersei. And he's done more than a few unsavoury, not just roguish things.

There aren't any heroes, and there's no overall moral view that will be reinforced with their victory. Hell, you've missed some of the most heroic(As in noble, selfless and brave, not as in the hero of the story or "Good guy" of the story) and selfless characters. What about Brienne? What of Davos Seaworth? What of Asha/Yara? What of Ser Barristan Selmy? What of Stannis(YMMV depending on where you're up to)? What about Mance Rayder? What about the Brotherhood without Banners? What of the Blackfish and Edmure Tully(Who really are the closest thing to surviving Starks. The Stark house has fallen. Deal with it people.)? Why Bran and not Meera Reed, hell, the Reeds in general? Maybe Pod's going to save the world? Sure, depending on whether you favour book or show your view on all of these characters will vary, but without a doubt, they have as much, or indeed, more, potential than the listed fan favourites.

There's a lot of trying to work out who the "Hero" or "Heroes" are of the story. Here's my hint: If they wanted a heroic arc, or some LOTR style questing, then there would be one clear objective for our heroes to work for, and they'd have the majority of the screentime dedicated to them working towards it. It would be terrible writing otherwise. It should click for you that that is certainly not the case when we jump from character to character like syphilis in one of Littlefinger's brothels, and we see that everyone wants different things, and even the characters who are most often grouped together (Starks/Jon Snow/Daenerys/Tyrion) (Because they're favourites, not because of any real reason), are completely at odds with each other, and to accomplish their goals, would have to manipulate, conquer or subjugate their fellow "Heroes". Hell, we've already seen this when Stannis, though having a similar outlook with regards to honour as Ned Stark cursed him for a traitor, and worked against his son, even when it was Ned who informed Stannis of the goings on in King's Landing. How do you think Daenerys would react to Tyrion, a Lannister, a member of a family who supported the Usurper, considering her policy of burning and crucifying, should she have arrived in Westoros already? Or to Rob Stark, who's father helped Robert Baratheon, who tried to kill her several times, and who was responsible for the deaths of her entire family?

Like the characters you like, but don't mistake your fancying them for their being the "Main character" or "Hero". Or you'll just be set up for sucker punch after sucker punch.