To me Game of Thrones will never be the same (S4E8 discussion)

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Fox12

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Jun 6, 2013
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Yeah, I'm not gonna lie OP, I reached the saturation point years ago. As soon as the fight was announced in the book, I knew it was over for our friend "the viper." In fact, once you understand Martins style, he is INCREDIBLY predictable, to the point where he is boring.

Basically he is the poster boy for Darkness Induced Apathy. I just don't care any more. Most of the characters are dead at this point, and after reading several hundred pages, nothing has happened. And now there may be an EIGHTH book, because Martin can't just sit down one after noon and actually plot a narrative.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Fox12 said:
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie OP, I reached the saturation point years ago. As soon as the fight was announced in the book, I knew it was over for our friend "the viper." In fact, once you understand Martins style, he is INCREDIBLY predictable, to the point where he is boring.

Basically he is the poster boy for Darkness Induced Apathy. I just don't care any more. Most of the characters are dead at this point, and after reading several hundred pages, nothing has happened. And now there may be an EIGHTH book, because Martin can't just sit down one after noon and actually plot a narrative.
Of POV characters introduced, outside of one-off prologue/epilogue characters, precisely two have died, and one of those "died". I'm curious how that translates to "most of the characters are dead".

Martin already debunked the "8 books" rumor. It was click-bait. Not that it would surprise me.

PS - You seem very knowledgeable about Martin's "style", and how it leads to predictable writing. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by his "style" and explain the process you use to predict future events, and how it was applied to predict events that have already occurred? Remember to spoiler tag for the OP.

Thanks! I'm eager to see your method in action!
 

Malty Milk Whistle

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I agree with Guppy, more characters are introduced than die.
My only complaint with Martin/the show guys is that if they don't get Daniel Poyser/Jimmy Akingbola/Idris Elba to play Areo Hotah I will cry.

I will also cry if anything other than awesome things happen to Areo.


On topic: people tend to get waaay too attached to characters in this show, then have a huge moan when they die, then decry their deaths as "predictable" or "deus ex machina".
Take a breath of air and step outside once in a while.
It'll be good for you.
 

Kyber

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Oct 14, 2009
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Daystar Clarion said:
Kyber said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Ukemi? Seriously?

This isn't Viewtiful Joe XD
Ukemi is a real thing, look it up before mocking it and making yourself look like an idiot.

Also spoiler large files, please.
I'm aware that it's a real thing, when did I say it wasn't?

Way to jump the gun with the ad hominem though, classy ;3
You did reference it to a video game with a lot of fictional fighting like double jumping though, and you can't deny that your post doesn't indicate that you were dismissing it as a real thing, if that was not the case then sorry.

And by the way, argumentum ad hominem would imply that we were arguing, I was giving advice, and hoping that you would follow the forum rules like everyone else here.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Kyber said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Kyber said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Ukemi? Seriously?

This isn't Viewtiful Joe XD
Ukemi is a real thing, look it up before mocking it and making yourself look like an idiot.

Also spoiler large files, please.
I'm aware that it's a real thing, when did I say it wasn't?

Way to jump the gun with the ad hominem though, classy ;3
You did reference it to a video game with a lot of fictional fighting like double jumping though, and you can't deny that your post doesn't indicate that you were dismissing it as a real thing, if that was not the case then sorry.

And by the way, argumentum ad hominem would imply that we were arguing, I was giving advice, and hoping that you would follow the forum rules like everyone else here.
You talk about following the rules, but imply I was an idiot.

A'reet, seems legit.
 

Chris Tian

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Magmarock said:
I had the same feeling as you, but some time ago. I watch long running shows or read book series for the characters. No story whatsoever will keep me interested over several books or seasons, so the characters are what gets me invested, I start to like them and care about them.

The whole "my writing is so cool and edgy, because I constantly kill likeable and interesting characters"-thing Martin does, doesn't work for me at all.

The plotarcs of GoT are not even particularly intersting, Aria and the Hound just run around aimlessly, Sansa doesn't seem to have any longterm goals, the same goes for the imp and his brother, ***** Lanister and Daddy Lanister are de facto king and queen without doing anythin interesting, No clue what little fingers long term goals are and Danerys runs around in the desert of nobodycares, freeing slaves without much oppoistion.

The only remotely interesting things are, John Snow and the Crows against the Wildling Invasion, and the looming threat of the White Walkers, but the with the later ones is so little happening that it almost doesnt count.

The show is very well made and all the actors range from above average to freaking brilliant, so I like to watch it and wait for a overall storyline to emerge, wich I still can't figure out 4 seasons in.

In conclusion, for me GoT lacks a protagonist I can invest in it doesn't even have a real antagonist I want to see beaten and there is very little interesting stuff going on.
 

Fox12

AccursedT- see you space cowboy
Jun 6, 2013
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BloatedGuppy said:
Fox12 said:
PS - You seem very knowledgeable about Martin's "style", and how it leads to predictable writing. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by his "style" and explain the process you use to predict future events, and how it was applied to predict events that have already occurred? Remember to spoiler tag for the OP.

Thanks! I'm eager to see your method in action!
It's quite simple. Martin takes what normal people do, then does the opposite. If there's a heroic situation or character, he's going to subvert it. Basically you just have to understand his mindset. To be fair, I spend a lot of time writing, so I may just be aware the tools of the trade.

[spoiler/] For the most part it's common sense. Let's look at two of the most "shocking" moments in the series.

When Eddard was taken captive, there was little chance of him surviving. His province was in open rebellion, he was surrounded by enemies, and he had already revealed that he knew everything to Cersei. Martin uses narrative misdirection by saying that he can be sent up north to the wall if his son stands down. Unfortunately this is incredibly stupid. First of all, it's out of Cerseis character to spare someone who may be a threat, or knows about her incest. She's paranoid and ruthless, so her offering to spare Eddard makes zero sense in that context. It was a betrayal of character for her to do that. Clearly Martin was just trying to find a way to misdirect his audience so he could pull the rug out from under them. Second, for Eddard to go to the wall, he would have to be sent past HIS OWN LANDS, which are currently in open rebellion. That's not even an option. Reading the books, I said that if he didn't kill of Eddard, then I would quit reading them then and there. It wasn't just an option at that point, it was the only option. Martin could have just said he would remain in house arrest in Kings Landing, but he clearly wanted to give some hope to the audience before killing Eddard, even if it didn't make any sense. The only reason people were surprised by his death was because he was the closest thing to a main character. Given logic, though, there was no other way for this to turn out. Martin really asks that you don't think about it too much.

The second is the Red Wedding. Rob Stark knowingly cheated the Freys, who are infamously proud. At this point his capital is burned, his family is dead or missing, he's facing possible invasion from the North, the South, and the West, all by armies larger than his own, his lieutenants are losing battles left and right, he's lost his most important bargaining chip, Jaime, his vassals, such as the karstarks, are deserting him, and he's separated from the Northern parts of his own land. Militarily, the war is already over. Once he meets the Frays, the outcome was clear. Frey uses blatantly suspicious terms like "the streets will run red with wine." Red Wine. Get it? Cause blood. Clever Martin (rolls eyes). The characters then make a plan to invade the Iron Islands, which is another glaring case of narrative misdirection. Now that Martin has his setup, it's time to pull the rug. The army is separated from their leader, which is suspicious enough, and then they are given alcohol. There is also mention that the band was too loud, a clear sign that they were trying to mask the sound of battle. Everyone then dies. The problem is that, if you look at the characters, and the situation, there's no real alternative. Why would the Frays support the losing side in a war when that side has already wronged them? Even without the Red Wedding, you would have to really stretch things to have a realistic happy ending for the characters at this point. What I don't understand is that Martin keeps doing the same thing over and over, and yet people keep getting surprised. Eddard dies in book one. Winterfell burns in book two. The Red Wedding occurs in book three, as well as the death of the viper. Martin sets up an event, deploys narrative misdirection, and then pulls the rug. Over and over.

If I sound irritated, then it's because of the reasoning given for these events. All of Martins fans talk about how Eddard, Rob, The Viper, and many other characters died because they were "too honorable." As if being a good person, in and of itself, got these people killed. I haven't seen reasoning this atrocious since Atlus Shrugged. They didn't die because they were good, they died because they were INCREDIBLY stupid. Eddard told his sworn enemy everything he knew while his allies were away, then gave them time to plot, and placed his trust in clearly selfish individuals. Rob betrayed a sworn oath to his most importent ally, punished his most loyal allies, and then put himself and his army in the most compromised position possible. The Viper exposed himself to his enemy after having all but won. As I read it, I mentally said "keep your distance, moron, he's about to grab you ankle." *Screaming starts.* Honor and intelligence aren't mutually exclusive. You can be both. I find Martins world view disturbing, nihilistic, and most impotently, intellectually bankrupt. [/spoiler]

I do love that this fight was basically The Princess Bride, though. "I am The Viper. You killed my sister. Now prepare to die!
 

Chris Tian

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Fenrox Jackson said:
Chris Tian said:
Fenrox Jackson said:
Agreed, also I totally predict him dying before he finishes the books.
Who dying? John Snow? If so then yes, I would bet my right hand on that.
George RR Martin, heart attack.
Well, then they could continue the show how they liked and we might get an actual storyline instead of random shit happening randomly.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Feb 3, 2010
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Fox12 said:
It's quite simple. Martin takes what normal people do, then does the opposite. If there's a heroic situation or character, he's going to subvert it. Basically you just have to understand his mindset. To be fair, I spend a lot of time writing, so I may just be aware the tools of the trade.

[spoiler/] For the most part it's common sense. Let's look at two of the most "shocking" moments in the series.

When Eddard was taken captive, there was little chance of him surviving. His province was in open rebellion, he was surrounded by enemies, and he had already revealed that he knew everything to Cersei. Martin uses narrative misdirection by saying that he can be sent up north to the wall if his son stands down. Unfortunately this is incredibly stupid. First of all, it's out of Cerseis character to spare someone who may be a threat, or knows about her incest. She's paranoid and ruthless, so her offering to spare Eddard makes zero sense in that context. It was a betrayal of character for her to do that. Clearly Martin was just trying to find a way to misdirect his audience so he could pull the rug out from under them. Second, for Eddard to go to the wall, he would have to be sent past HIS OWN LANDS, which are currently in open rebellion. That's not even an option. Reading the books, I said that if he didn't kill of Eddard, then I would quit reading them then and there. It wasn't just an option at that point, it was the only option. Martin could have just said he would remain in house arrest in Kings Landing, but he clearly wanted to give some hope to the audience before killing Eddard, even if it didn't make any sense. The only reason people were surprised by his death was because he was the closest thing to a main character. Given logic, though, there was no other way for this to turn out. Martin really asks that you don't think about it too much.

The second is the Red Wedding. Rob Stark knowingly cheated the Freys, who are infamously proud. At this point his capital is burned, his family is dead or missing, he's facing possible invasion from the North, the South, and the West, all by armies larger than his own, his lieutenants are losing battles left and right, he's lost his most important bargaining chip, Jaime, his vassals, such as the karstarks, are deserting him, and he's separated from the Northern parts of his own land. Militarily, the war is already over. Once he meets the Frays, the outcome was clear. Frey uses blatantly suspicious terms like "the streets will run red with wine." Red Wine. Get it? Cause blood. Clever Martin (rolls eyes). The characters then make a plan to invade the Iron Islands, which is another glaring case of narrative misdirection. Now that Martin has his setup, it's time to pull the rug. The army is separated from their leader, which is suspicious enough, and then they are given alcohol. There is also mention that the band was too loud, a clear sign that they were trying to mask the sound of battle. Everyone then dies. The problem is that, if you look at the characters, and the situation, there's no real alternative. Why would the Frays support the losing side in a war when that side has already wronged them? Even without the Red Wedding, you would have to really stretch things to have a realistic happy ending for the characters at this point. What I don't understand is that Martin keeps doing the same thing over and over, and yet people keep getting surprised. Eddard dies in book one. Winterfell burns in book two. The Red Wedding occurs in book three, as well as the death of the viper. Martin sets up an event, deploys narrative misdirection, and then pulls the rug. Over and over.

If I sound irritated, then it's because of the reasoning given for these events. All of Martins fans talk about how Eddard, Rob, The Viper, and many other characters died because they were "too honorable." As if being a good person, in and of itself, got these people killed. I haven't seen reasoning this atrocious since Atlus Shrugged. They didn't die because they were good, they died because they were INCREDIBLY stupid. Eddard told his sworn enemy everything he knew while his allies were away, then gave them time to plot, and placed his trust in clearly selfish individuals. Rob betrayed a sworn oath to his most importent ally, punished his most loyal allies, and then put himself and his army in the most compromised position possible. The Viper exposed himself to his enemy after having all but won. As I read it, I mentally said "keep your distance, moron, he's about to grab you ankle." *Screaming starts.* Honor and intelligence aren't mutually exclusive. You can be both. I find Martins world view disturbing, nihilistic, and most impotently, intellectually bankrupt. [/spoiler]

I do love that this fight was basically The Princess Bride, though. "I am The Viper. You killed my sister. Now prepare to die!
Wait now...all you've done here is demonstrated hindsight and highlighted areas where the author employed foreshadowing, which I grant you is a commonly used narrative device, as well as subversion of commonly occurring fantasy tropes, which the author himself has been quite forthcoming about employing. You indicated his writing was "extremely predictable". Can you demonstrate how other events past these significant deaths were predictable? Can you explain how the story will resolve, or what fate lies ahead for other major story threads? Given there is much concern about the author's health, it might be good to have you on hand to explain what's going to happen. I'd like to see the process of prediction in action. Maybe you could outline some of the major plot developments we can expect to see in Winds of Winter? That'd be grand.

Additionally, would you care to address "most of the characters have died"? I'm still not entirely sure how you arrived at that. It's possible I don't understand what you mean by "most".
 

CrazyCajun777

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Magmarock said:
"He felt like the new hero the show desperately needed."
This quote made me a little sad. I think that this is a common theme of people who watch/read game of thrones. People tend to focus on the negative and the superficial. I do not mean to insult you, but I beg that upon overcoming your grief for a favorite character you reexamine the world of a Song of Ice and Fire and perhaps look at what a "hero" is to you.

First of all, I would argue that the Red Viper is not a hero at all. Sure he's cool. Damn he's cool. I mean he has a smooth spanish accent and the swagger of a bullfighter. However, a cool character is not necessarily a hero. Sure, he hated the Lanisters but that doesn't make him a hero either. Let's pause and really look at the man. First thing we see is that he is a big fan of whores. Not really a heroic quality in general, but not a terrible mark against him (could be a cultural thing, but couldn't we say the same thing about the slavers in Meereen). However, then he hears a man singing "The Rains of Castamere" and he goes off to pick a fight. His paramour pleads with him not to go making trouble, but he does anyway. Then he baits the Lanister soldier into a fight that will cripple him. He possibly even killed the man for naught but a song. Did the Lanisters kill his sister? Perhaps, all we know is that the mountain did it, but he is a butcher and a mad dog it is possible that he did this without Tywin's approval. Either way, this man did no such thing. For all we know this soldier is a good hard working guy taking some R&R in a local whorehouse (she could have been his girlfriend for all we know). Yet, the Viper may have killed him all the same. Then he agrees to defend our favorite Imp at his trial for regicide. He doesn't know that the Imp is innocent and he doesn't care. He may set an killer free just so he can get at his enemy. This is a man governed by vengeance. He isn't a terrible guy, in my opinion, but I would describe him as "cool" not "good."

Second, the story is littered with heroes. Sure, they may not be as cool as the Red Viper, but the hero isn't always cool. You want a hero? Look to John Snow, a character who fights not for a banner, not for family, not for honor, but for men, all men. Look to Davos Seaworth, a man who went against his king, to whom he owes everything he is, to save the life of a bastard boy that no one cared about. Look to Sam, a man who fears everything, but fights it anyway to protect others. Look to the maid of Tarth, a woman who was insulted and put down by society, who lost all those she served and many who she loved, but still fights to do what in her heart she feels to be right. Look to Jamie Lanister, a man scarred by the sins of his past but who fights to redeem himself. Look to even the Hound, (the whole robbing the farmer didn't happen in the books) a man who is considered to be nothing but a bully and a killer who hurled himself into the rioting mob to save an innocent girl. Tyrion tells Sandor, "Well done, Clegane" and the hound replies, "I didn't do it for you." Look to Tyrion, to Podrick, to Sansa, to Sir Barristan, the list goes on.

My point is simply this. I'm sorry your favorite character died, but I hope that you keep in mind that there is a difference between a "cool" guy and a "hero." Also I hope that perhaps you will look to find the heroes all around and not just focus on the superficial. Again I am sorry that your favorite died, and I hope that these words might give you a shot at finding someone else to cheer for.
 

Kyber

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Daystar Clarion said:
Kyber said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Kyber said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Ukemi? Seriously?

This isn't Viewtiful Joe XD
Ukemi is a real thing, look it up before mocking it and making yourself look like an idiot.

Also spoiler large files, please.
I'm aware that it's a real thing, when did I say it wasn't?

Way to jump the gun with the ad hominem though, classy ;3
You did reference it to a video game with a lot of fictional fighting like double jumping though, and you can't deny that your post doesn't indicate that you were dismissing it as a real thing, if that was not the case then sorry.

And by the way, argumentum ad hominem would imply that we were arguing, I was giving advice, and hoping that you would follow the forum rules like everyone else here.
You talk about following the rules, but imply I was an idiot.

A'reet, seems legit.
By misrepresenting my argument you only undermine your own.
 

Chris Tian

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May 5, 2012
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CrazyCajun777 said:
Second, the story is littered with heroes. Sure, they may not be as cool as the Red Viper, but the hero isn't always cool. You want a hero? Look to John Snow, a character who fights not for a banner, not for family, not for honor, but for men, all men. Look to Davos Seaworth, a man who went against his king, to whom he owes everything he is, to save the life of a bastard boy that no one cared about. Look to Sam, a man who fears everything, but fights it anyway to protect others. Look to the maid of Tarth, a woman who was insulted and put down by society, who lost all those she served and many who she loved, but still fights to do what in her heart she feels to be right. Look to Jamie Lanister, a man scarred by the sins of his past but who fights to redeem himself. Look to even the Hound, (the whole robbing the farmer didn't happen in the books) a man who is considered to be nothing but a bully and a killer who hurled himself into the rioting mob to save an innocent girl. Tyrion tells Sandor, "Well done, Clegane" and the hound replies, "I didn't do it for you." Look to Tyrion, to Podrick, to Sansa, to Sir Barristan, the list goes on.

My point is simply this. I'm sorry your favorite character died, but I hope that you keep in mind that there is a difference between a "cool" guy and a "hero." Also I hope that perhaps you will look to find the heroes all around and not just focus on the superficial. Again I am sorry that your favorite died, and I hope that these words might give you a shot at finding someone else to cheer for.
I agree with you, that the show has quite a few interesting characters. The problem for me is, that except John Snow, none of those doe anything particularly interesting or have any longterm goals, besides survival, that seem to be achievable at all.

Fox12 said:
I actually agree with you that his "subversion of tropes" has by now become somewhat predictable. How anyone can be shocked that the fight didn't turn out particularly well for The Viper is beyond me. I had the same thought after the Red Wedding when everybody was talking about how mind blowing that was.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Kyber said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Kyber said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Kyber said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Ukemi? Seriously?

This isn't Viewtiful Joe XD
Ukemi is a real thing, look it up before mocking it and making yourself look like an idiot.

Also spoiler large files, please.
I'm aware that it's a real thing, when did I say it wasn't?

Way to jump the gun with the ad hominem though, classy ;3
You did reference it to a video game with a lot of fictional fighting like double jumping though, and you can't deny that your post doesn't indicate that you were dismissing it as a real thing, if that was not the case then sorry.

And by the way, argumentum ad hominem would imply that we were arguing, I was giving advice, and hoping that you would follow the forum rules like everyone else here.
You talk about following the rules, but imply I was an idiot.

A'reet, seems legit.
By misrepresenting my argument you only undermine your own.
You didn't write this then?

Ukemi is a real thing, look it up before mocking it and making yourself look like an idiot.
I must be going crazy.
 

CrazyCajun777

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Apr 2, 2013
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Chris Tian said:
I agree with you, that the show has quite a few interesting characters. The problem for me is, that except John Snow, none of those doe anything particularly interesting or have any longterm goals, besides survival, that seem to be achievable at all.
Well, I would keep in mind that we are at the end of book three of what is estimated to be a 7-8 book series (if we compare the show in relation to the book's timeline). This is less than half way through. It is like the end of act 2 in a 5 act play. It is more than possible that these characters have yet to gain their footing as it were. At then end of book three of Harry Potter the actual plot hadn't really taken off yet either.