And you can see that he was loved! Just reread or re-watch the scenes at his camp. That's what every other leader lacked.
I think a Renly Kingship, backed by the richness and shrewdness of the Tyrells, would have been peaceful and ultimately saved the realm from utter bankruptcy. But both Ned and Stannis rejected him not because of his lack of skill but because of laws of inheritance (and the reason that Ned was so conflicted about picking Stannis is because he knew that Renly was the better choice). The only reason he lost was evil magic.
I don't believe that was the reason Ned was conflicted; Renly had never exhibited any particular skill for politics either. He had not earned a thing in his life, but exhibited a sense of complete entitlement. As far as I can see, Ned was conflicted because he was in a delicate and dangerous situation, he knew it, and the idea of relying on Littlefinger was hardly reassuring.
What is it, exactly, that gives evidence of him being a good politician?
I am basing it off of the fact that he was loved. Where everyone else brought "rights" and "money" and "war" to the table, he was able to gain loyalty purely off of his charisma (remember, he had no real claim to the Storm Lands). It is mentioned in the books that he knows how to make friends very easily, and was loved by the peasants. I don't remember if its in the show, but in the books he was the Master of Laws at the Small Council.
Also, his tactics of waiting for the Starks and Lannisters to kill each other before charging in with an objectively larger army was very smart (though it smacks of Tyrell planning to be honest), showing that he was patient and had a head for tactics.
These events reinvigorated my love for the show. This story does not give a fuck about plot armour, nor about the yin and yang of "good guy bad guy" deaths. This is a story where the people are prone to the most petty and passionate of human emotions, no matter their established "awesomness". And that elevates it above all other shows ever created.
These events reinvigorated my love for the show. This story does not give a fuck about plot armour, nor about the yin and yang of "good guy bad guy" deaths. This is a story where the people are prone to the most petty and passionate of human emotions, no matter their established "awesomness". And that elevates it above all other shows ever created.
Why do people need to root for somebody? Just enjoy the show and learn to let go, if the show was a woman, she's not looking to marry you and have kids with you. That doesn't mean you can't have hot sex with her. If it can't be a lasting treasure, there can still be moments of pleasure.
As a result I don't think GoT will be able to shock me again. I feel that it's blown it's load and at this point and I will no longer be moved by any further revelations or main character deaths.
That's kind of how I feel about the books. I started cautiously optimistic about the series but by now came to realize that the series - even if the plot starts to falter - is still carried by great actors & crew, while the books have nothing else to fall back on.
Martin is and always was a brilliant short story author, but due to his style of creating a story as he writes (a 'pantser' in writer-speak, i.e. someone who writes 'by the seat of his pants') he has entangled himself in a massive behemoth of a story that he now has trouble bringing to a conclusion. Part of that is also that he relies on very 'absolute' shock moments - those work in a short story, but are quickly exhausted in long epic series.
As a result I don't think GoT will be able to shock me again. I feel that it's blown it's load and at this point and I will no longer be moved by any further revelations or main character deaths.
That's kind of how I feel about the books. I started cautiously optimistic about the series but by now came to realize that the series - even if the plot starts to falter - is still carried by great actors & crew, while the books have nothing else to fall back on.
Martin is and always was a brilliant short story author, but due to his style of creating a story as he writes (a 'pantser' in writer-speak, i.e. someone who writes 'by the seat of his pants') he has entangled himself in a massive behemoth of a story that he now has trouble bringing to a conclusion. Part of that is also that he relies on very 'absolute' shock moments - those work in a short story, but are quickly exhausted in long epic series.
That's a very good point. Yes the acting alone is reason to keep watching and as I've said to a lot of people I have no real plans to stop watching yet. It's just this has affected my enjoyment is all. Ironically the next shock will be the lack of shock and things going well for the charismatic characters.
These events reinvigorated my love for the show. This story does not give a fuck about plot armour, nor about the yin and yang of "good guy bad guy" deaths. This is a story where the people are prone to the most petty and passionate of human emotions, no matter their established "awesomness". And that elevates it above all other shows ever created.
Nothing has yet surpassed The Rains of Castamere in brutality; I liked Oberyn, I enjoyed his charisma and righteous anger, but he's only been around one season.
I hadn't invested as much emotional energy in him as I did with Robb and Cat, so while his death DID upset and anger me, (As it should) it didn't shellshock me like The Red Wedding did.
My enthusiasm for the series has not diminished. However, I do have one grievance. While Oberyn's death makes sense from an empirical perspective, and although it doesn't negatively affect the story, I do think that there was missed potential in his character.
I have not read this far in the books as of the time of posting, so he might have been a more minor character as conceived by George R.R Martin, but much like Robb Stark, this is irrelevant in the case of the show; in Game of Thrones the show Robb and Oberyn were major characters, the writers set several scenes aside for the sole purpose of their development, and Oberyn was shaping into an interesting figure.
I suspected when I was watching the fight that Oberyn would do something stupid out spite or pride; something that would have caused him no small amount of trouble but leave him alive so that he could continue being a major figure. I was excited at this prospect.
When Oberyn first walked onto the scene, I was concerned that he would be a throwaway character, just an audience surrogate device to seek righteous vengeance on the Lanisters; I was concerned his motivation and psychology would never extend beyond the bare minimum necessary to fulfill this role... I was wrong.
Oberyn Martell may have begun with mere righteous fury, but Westeros has a way of destroying what it can and perverting what it can't. Oberyn's desire for vengeance was obsessive; a conversation with Cersei reveals that he often thinks of his dead sister. He explains that he does this in spite of the pain it causes him. Oberyn is not just a victim of his anger, he has actively endeavored to keep it alive and well; he has chosen to maintain a state of mind that makes him miserable.
Oberyn carries himself with almost reckless abandon, but I wonder how much of it is justified confidence and how much of it is born from a sort of apathy, almost as if he doesn't really care what happens to him.
Oberyn also shows a great deal of patriotism, which I consider to be odd. Oberyn is clearly aware of how cruel a place the world can be, and I find it hard to believe that Dorne is some secret promise land where they "Don't hurt little girls". The impression that I got was that Oberyn had convinced himself of his countries righteousness as a coping mechanism; this has shades of classic Roman hubris done right.
This is obsession, arrogance and hatred, often grim ideas, but here they are lent humanity; nowhere is this more evident than in the fight itself. Oberyn is so thirsty for revenge that simply getting it isn't enough anymore, he has to humiliate and destroy Gregor just as thoroughly as Gregor destroyed and humiliated Elia. And this very hubris, the very thing that drove him to seek vengeance in the first place, that has driven him and propelled him to this moment, is his downfall.
I am not disappointed that Oberyn Martell is dead, I am disappointed that he was only around for one season; The Red Viper cut an intriguing figure and I am of the opinion that he had not yet reached his peek.
I feel that this was unnecessary; I am confident that there were ways to move the story along the same approximate path with horror and shock all the same without killing Oberyn off.
Sudden and horrific displays of violence are deeply ingrained into A Song of Ice and Fire's DNA, and the death itself is entirely appropriate; it's just a shame that it cost us such a good character.
The problem is sumonoskae, having this event not happen would, from what i've heard, completely change the events in the future. This event instigates large story changes, and to deviate from it would have pretty much separated the book from the show completely. And i am not okay with this, as i am a firm believer that without the book's guidance, this show would suffer the same fate as all others; being generic trash.
John Snow is a traitor's son, who twice betrayed the Night's Watch. The first time he defected was to take part on the usurper's side of a war, the second he collaborated with the enemy. Finally John betrays "the side that fights for the living", demonstrating that not only a man of no loyalty but that he is also willing to sell out humanity.
...What? Wasn't Ned Stark the ONLY person in Kings Landing that DIDN'T betray the king. Not that it matters; whatever Ned did or didn't do has no baring on weather Jon Snow is a good person.
Jon's reason for wanting to leave the first time were entirely justified; he wanted to help his family, the people he loved most, seek justice for the death of his father. True, he made a vow, but our very own Kingslayer said some pretty intelligent shit about the problem with vows and how dogmatic they can be. Jon could have either abandoned his family in their time of need or forsaken the Nights Watch, who didn't seem to want or need him at the time.
The second time he "Betrayed" the Nights Watch was by necessity, and it wasn't even his idea; another member of the Watch convinced him to go undercover. It was the best option he had at the time; he would of just been executed otherwise, and that would have solved nothing. He never did much of anything to aid the Wildling cause, and he later fulfills his mission anyway so he did exactly what was best for the Watch. Not that I would have blamed him if he betrayed the Watch; it's a glorified prison camp that has served almost no purpose in years.
The Night's Watch has proven time and time again to be a shadow of it's former self at best; the people they defend from the Wildlings are every bit as savage and violent as the Wildlings themselves, and White Walkers, the whole reason for the Night's Watch in the first place, have only just recently shown back up to cause trouble, and The Night's Watch has proven completely incapable of stopping them.
If you ask me, Jon Snow wanting to forget the whole business is entirely understandable.
I'd say that Jon Snow is about as good as you can be in Westeros.
When Eddard was taken captive, there was little chance of him surviving. His province was in open rebellion, he was surrounded by enemies, and he had already revealed that he knew everything to Cersei. Martin uses narrative misdirection by saying that he can be sent up north to the wall if his son stands down. Unfortunately this is incredibly stupid.
Wrong. It makes a fuck ton of sense. Send Eddard to the wall, Robb steps down and Sansa continues to be a ward (hostage) at Kings Landing until a time when she comes of age. In this scenario there's no King in the North, no Red Wedding and no dead Eddard.
Fox12 said:
First of all, it's out of Cerseis character to spare someone who may be a threat, or knows about her incest. She's paranoid and ruthless, so her offering to spare Eddard makes zero sense in that context. It was a betrayal of character for her to do that.
You're mistaking post AFFC Cersei for GoT Cersei, two vastly different characters. At the point when she has Ned she's smart and still relatively level headed. She knows that if she kills Ned the North will have a cause and a martyr to rally their banners behind. She wants him on the Wall because that would quell the North and offer a chance at peace.
Fox12 said:
Second, for Eddard to go to the wall, he would have to be sent past HIS OWN LANDS, which are currently in open rebellion.
So? Cersei knows that Ned is an honourable man and she's not an idiot, she'd have Sansa as leverage. So Ned would go North to the Wall as planned. Even if Cercei was paranoid enough to think that Ned would try and break his vow (which would involve Sansa's death), it's pretty easy to take a ship to Eastwatch by the Sea, and because the North isn't known for their naval power it would be easy to get him there.
When I was reading it having Ned sent to the Wall made perfect sense. It'd remove him from Winterfell and his personal stake in the realm and the affairs of the crown would come to an end. In the end it was Joffrey's bloodthirst and pantomime display at the Sept of Baelor, which blindsided everyoneincluding Cercei. He was a valuable bargaining chip and at the time Cercei still had half her wits. Not to mention that she was facing invasion from two Baratheons and the North would put both of them in a delicate position.
You want a protaganist to be "hero"? Melisandre. She's Neutral Good/True Neutral (haven't decided yet, through probably True Neutral) and she seems like the only person in Westeros (at this point, have read the books so I know she doesn't stay that way) with her eyes on the big picture. She knows the White Walkers are coming and everything she does is to save the world of man from it's imminent destruction. She's not pure as the driven snow but she's the one working towards a clear, good purpose. Even if she does have to get her hands dirty to get there she will make sure the world doesn't end. Noble? No. But very real.
Though I feel looking for a "hero" in ASoIaF is ultimately futile.
John Snow is a traitor's son, who twice betrayed the Night's Watch. The first time he defected was to take part on the usurper's side of a war, the second he collaborated with the enemy. Finally John betrays "the side that fights for the living", demonstrating that not only a man of no loyalty but that he is also willing to sell out humanity.
Ned Stark is a "traitor"? He tried to prevent usurpation; Joffrey was not the rightful king, by blood or any other measure. He tried to make sure the throne passed to Robert's lawful heir.
As for betraying the "side that fights for the living", that sounds just absurd. He's done more than almost anybody else to defend the Night's Watch.
maxben said:
I am basing it off of the fact that he was loved. Where everyone else brought "rights" and "money" and "war" to the table, he was able to gain loyalty purely off of his charisma (remember, he had no real claim to the Storm Lands). It is mentioned in the books that he knows how to make friends very easily, and was loved by the peasants. I don't remember if its in the show, but in the books he was the Master of Laws at the Small Council.
Also, his tactics of waiting for the Starks and Lannisters to kill each other before charging in with an objectively larger army was very smart (though it smacks of Tyrell planning to be honest), showing that he was patient and had a head for tactics.
He was Master of Laws, but seems to have spent his time on the council making japes. In the meetings we see, the only Small Council member to bring anything meaningful to the table was Ser Barristan (who holds the position ceremonially), and by all accounts when Jon Arryn was Hand, he and Stannis pretty much ran the meetings.
As I said before, being liked does not mean much. Ned Stark was loved, but people seem to agree he didn't have a head for King's Landing politics.
Welllllll...Jon's entire book five arc is about how his selfishness and how it ultimately leads both to the destabilization of the Watch and his own downfall as Lord Commander. He's supposed to be focused on stopping the White Walkers, but after having his one sensible idea...letting the Wildlings through...he becomes myopically obsessed with meddling with affairs in the south. He's propping up Stannis at every turn, in large part because Stannis opposes the Lannisters and Jon still carries a grudge, despite the fact that Stannis is in open rebellion to the crown and the Warden of the North and his conflict further weakens the realm at a time it needs to be gathering strength. He shelters and brokers a marriage for Alys Karstark. He sends Mance...a dangerous man the Night's Watch has paid dearly to capture/defeat...off to rescue his "sister" and further entangle himself in events south of the Wall. And then most damningly he actually tries to muster the Watch into a fighting force to march south and attack Winterfell because Ramsay has offended his righteous sensibilities by being a monster.
I wouldn't call him a "betrayer", that's just silliness, but he's certainly not doing his duty, such as it is. Remember Maester Aemon and "Love is the death of duty"? Jon is constantly tempted to flee or endanger the watch, motivated by love for his family or a desire to "do the right thing". He resists for a time, but once he's Lord Commander he goes ham with it. Bowen Marsh and the others who ultimately betray him may seem at a glance like small minded bigots terrified of Wildlings and nothng more, but look at what he's doing from their perspective. He looks about three steps away from crowning himself Night's King.
Welllllll...Jon's entire book five arc is about how his selfishness and how it ultimately leads both to the destabilization of the Watch and his own downfall as Lord Commander. He's supposed to be focused on stopping the White Walkers, but after having his one sensible idea...letting the Wildlings through...he becomes myopically obsessed with meddling with affairs in the south. He's propping up Stannis at every turn, in large part because Stannis opposes the Lannisters and Jon still carries a grudge, despite the fact that Stannis is in open rebellion to the crown and the Warden of the North and his conflict further weakens the realm at a time it needs to be gathering strength. He shelters and brokers a marriage for Alys Karstark. He sends Mance...a dangerous man the Night's Watch has paid dearly to capture/defeat...off to rescue his "sister" and further entangle himself in events south of the Wall. And then most damningly he actually tries to muster the Watch into a fighting force to march south and attack Winterfell because Ramsay has offended his righteous sensibilities by being a monster.
I wouldn't call him a "betrayer", that's just silliness, but he's certainly not doing his duty, such as it is. Remember Maester Aemon and "Love is the death of duty"? Jon is constantly tempted to flee or endanger the watch, motivated by love for his family or a desire to "do the right thing". He resists for a time, but once he's Lord Commander he goes ham with it. Bowen Marsh and the others who ultimately betray him may seem at a glance like small minded bigots terrified of Wildlings and nothng more, but look at what he's doing from their perspective. He looks about three steps away from crowning himself Night's King.
That's certainly how Bowen Marsh sees it, and though I blamed him at first, I can't blame him any longer. I don't see them as small-minded at all, but certainly misguided. Their actions will have caused more chaos at the Wall than Jon's decision ever would have.
Stannis is in open rebellion, but a Westeros unified under Lannister/ Bolton rule would be even worse for the Watch and the war against the Others/Walkers. Stannis was the only King to take the threat seriously, and the Lannisters and Boltons would be quite happy to ignore it as they always had. Hell, Ramsay even threatened the Lord Commander personally. They would be happy to do worse than ignore the threat, and actively attack the Night's Watch.
He shelters Alys Karstark because her uncle was attempting to break the law and usurp Karhold. Freeing Mance was a bad move, certainly, but it wasn't his own idea, and he was understandably desperate.
I can see how it looks to Marsh, but I can't see how a reader could agree with him, knowing what we know.
Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread
I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.
And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.
.
It's simple really, but I don't know if they show it in the show as much as in the books.
During the fight he repeats his accusations more and more, concentrating on enraging the mountain and forcing him to confess to his face (and in public), plus extorting the name of the man who gave the order to do the deed (Tywin). His surprise confession caught Oberyn off-guard, Because of that Oberyn was distracted enough for the mountain to catch him unprepared. The end result was his splattered brains. Not such a big deal - the mountain is HUGE. He had taken many, many wounds during the war and had survived hundreds of battles and skirmishes. He earned his namesake - He's a motherfucking MOUNTAIN of a man. Of course he can still beat the ever-living crap out of Oberyn even after taking a severe beating and many wounds.
You don't have to tell me what happened in the episode. Here comes my problem. Okay, Oberyn was caught off guard, fair enough. First of all, Oberyn is a martial artist. One of the first things they teach you in almost any existing martial art is how to regroup during your fall to minimize the damage. It's called "Ukemi" in some martial arts and this is why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls and bones. The warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex, ESPECIALLY considering very theatrical and agile fighting style of Oberyn. So, Oberyn was supposed to be able to regroup and simply roll away from the danger. But okay, let's assume he fell down and got stunned for a moment. So Mountain grabs and lifts Oberyn and tries to punch him in the face. You know what any sane person would do? Put a palm between his face and incoming fist. As simple as that. The Mountain didn't hold Oberyn's hands, so there was NOTHING preventing him from blocking that hit. So it's double bullshit. And my suspension of disbelief can stretch only so far when it comes to even extraordinary human beings. Unless The Mountain was injected with Captain America serum it was nigh impossible for him to do all that shit after getting stabbed, cut, poisoned and tired all the while wearing a medieval HEAVY ARMOR. You know, the kind of armor that was so heavy, that it would pin fallen knight to the ground.
I just have to correct you on something, being used to fight in armor my self.
If armor is of somewhat quality and made for the user, it is not really that encumbering and if a man was brought up from childhood, learning to move in it, it becomes even less of en issue.
And(!) if that man is The Mountain, a cave troll in human form (take the actor for reference, 206cm, 191kg.) it is suddenly not really a problem.
Another thing about armor. It really works! That stab to the torso might look bad, but I suspect that the (at least) 2mm of hardened steel and several centimeters of gambeson took most of the damage. The little it penetrated though that, will on a man like the mountain, still just be a flesh-wound.
Now. Moving away to speculation.
The Oberyn actually does get up fairly fast, but is hit in the face by a (again, cave-troll'ish) fist to the face.
(Right after falling and possibly striking his head on the tiles?)
We don't see the Mountains other hand at this moment, but it is not unreasonable so suspect that this has a tight grip on Oberyns jacket,so he cannot roll the other way.
We don't see the Mountains other hand at this moment, but it is not unreasonable so suspect that this has a tight grip on Oberyns jacket,so he cannot roll the other way.
That's certainly how Bowen Marsh sees it, and though I blamed him at first, I can't blame him any longer. I don't see them as small-minded at all, but certainly misguided. Their actions will have caused more chaos at the Wall than Jon's decision ever would have.
Stannis is in open rebellion, but a Westeros unified under Lannister/ Bolton rule would be even worse for the Watch and the war against the Others/Walkers. Stannis was the only King to take the threat seriously, and the Lannisters and Boltons would be quite happy to ignore it as they always had. Hell, Ramsay even threatened the Lord Commander personally. They would be happy to do worse than ignore the threat, and actively attack the Night's Watch.
He shelters Alys Karstark because her uncle was attempting to break the law and usurp Karhold. Freeing Mance was a bad move, certainly, but it wasn't his own idea, and he was understandably desperate.
I can see how it looks to Marsh, but I can't see how a reader could agree with him, knowing what we know.
I'm not sure I agree. While Stannis is more "dedicated to the cause", as it were, his force is a pittance, and this is a time when men of warm blood really need to be banding together. Jon understands this. His support of Stannis seems to be primarily motivated by spite of the Lannisters. From a human perspective this is perfectly understandable, but Jon is meant to have left such worldly motivations behind. Ramsay, for instance, only threatens to attack the Night's Watch AFTER it is revealed Jon is meddling. Jon has put the Night's Watch in direct peril through his actions.
Her uncle was indeed trying to break the law, and sheltering her was the MORAL thing to do, but once again fell outside his purview as Commander of the Night's Watch. They are to take no part in the politics or wars of the realm. They are meant to be of a singular purpose. Same goes for attempting to rescue "Arya". Of course we want Jeyne rescued. It's human and kind. But from the point of view of the Commander of the Night's Watch, it's a pointless, reckless decision. Everything he does that imperils the Watch imperils all of Westeros. Jon knows the stakes. He knows what waits for them north of the Wall.
And then there's the mission to Hard home. Noble, yes, but ultimately doomed. A failure of pragmatism. And his final call to march on Ramsay...I actually begin to think Ramsay is in the story as the anti-Jon Snow. A man so nakedly, immediately vile...and possibly threatening Jon's favorite sister to boot...that Jon simply cannot help but take the bait. He abandons his sworn duty, and calls for others to do the same, all in the name of slaking his need for justice.
I thought it was interesting writing...positioning Jon so that his inherent "goodness" erupts as a critical moral flaw. Remember what Mormont says to him?
"Craster is his own man. He has sworn us no vows. Nor is he subject to our laws. Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night?s Watch has other wars to fight."
Or Maester Aemon?
"Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night's Watch take no wives and father no children? So they will not love, for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms...or the memory of a brothers smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."
Jon keeps failing to learn the lessons they are trying to impart to him. He gives into temptation time and time again, and ultimately pays the price for it.
I always thought that Oberyn got himself killed on purpose. That's why he used a poison that kills in extreamly painful way over a week in the first place instead of some fast acting one that would actually help him win. He wanted revenge and had nothing else to live for.
I think it was brought up by someone in story too.
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