Tomb Raider writer expressed an interest in making Lara gay?

[Johnny Novgorod]

Would it make any difference? She makes war, not love.

 

[A Distant Star]

I love this thread.

Jesus Christ, this is absurd. Look at this thing. The writer considered making a character gay and you're up in arms. I thought the Escapist was supposed to be fairly liberal, and yet here you are basically showing some pretty blatant homophobia. Sure, you dress it up nice under the veil of "It'd just be cheap titillation!" but come on. This is ridiculous. Essentially what you're saying is that any female homosexuality is nothing but pandering to men. Next you'll be saying that real life lesbians are only doing it for attention.

Glad I am not the only one who noticed this!

Actually on the topic of whether Miss Pratchett would pander to the male fantasy demographic it might be worth considering, what is her sexuality? Is she gay herself or not? (I don't think she would write a lesbian character for exploitationary purposes either way, but its something to consider)

Her intentions. Rihanna Pratchett is a woman. Please actually pay attention.

I dont think most people here have actually read the interview.

I'll say it again: we have way more than enough lesbian videogame characters. That wouldn't be even be original or controversial; just another token lesbian fanservice in a videogame.

Name me one lesbian heroin of a triple A game. Just one.

Seriously?
Can we stop making everything gay? or fanboy orientated?
Lara is one of the only female lead charas in game that i looked up to and felt identified, making her gay...will change the way i see her.
Mind you, this is not homophobic. Just damn, why now everything has to be gay-ified?

I can only see this as either a low attempt to follow the fashion of "introducing something gay" or killing the already good image of her in the idea to make male fantasies come true!
Come on! 40% of the gamer community is female!
If you want Lara gay for male pleasure, make then Nathan Drake gay for female pleasure!

Here's something to consider. If you have to say "I'm not being homophobic." you're probably being homophobic.

Question? Did you actually read the bloody interview? Cause if not, you're opinion is irrelevant and biased.

Also, I would play the shit out of an Uncharted reboot where Nathan Drake was gay. Though the decisions are not exactly connected, unless Uncharted hires Rihanna Pratchett on as writer. And who said anything about making Lara gay for male pleasure? Did Pratchett? No. Read the bloody interview.

 

[Lieju]

I'll say it again: we have way more than enough lesbian videogame characters. That wouldn't be even be original or controversial; just another token lesbian fanservice in a videogame.

Where? Please tell me, I'd be happy to see some lesbian characters. Where are all of these lesbians hiding? All I can think of are some Bioware games, and it's not like lesbians are over-represented there either...

 

[Madara XIII]

Good link

"Women are overtly sexualized in many videogames, but they're rarely allowed to be sexual. Sure, have your female avatar swing massive boobs around in bikini battle armor, but if she dares to show physical interest in somebody? Oh, the scandal!"

Yeah I love the article (I see I terribly misquoted it earlier) but my tired mind is glad this game IS in development. Sounds really awesome to me, a fresh IP with a fresh perspective.

Wouldn't say Tomb Raider is so much a Fresh IP as you would suggest more along the lines of it just being a stale as hell cupcake found at the back of the oven and layered with a fresh coat of frosting to make it look new.

Don't really care much for any Tomb Raider but the direction this one took was trying to pull an Other M by giving a rather 2 dimensional character a personality and while that's all well and good, the execution was sub par.

i was talking about the game remember me: http://youtu.be/CxafgI6vRTE

Oh that! Yes now that actually looks like a very interesting game and I'm worried because Capcom is making it.
Yet it somehow looks...UNIQUE.
So apologies are in order

 

[m19]

You know I look back and forth between the video Jim made about how there needs to be more women in games and everyone being on board with that, and this thread with people being against a well known female character being gay, and I can't help but be really confused.

Not that confusing really. It's not about gay characters, it's about taking a character with more than a decade of history and fan attachments and a distinct lack of 'gayness' and 'making her gay' in the words of the author. To be fair to her, it was no more than a contemplation she had.

 

[Erttheking]

You know I look back and forth between the video Jim made about how there needs to be more women in games and everyone being on board with that, and this thread with people being against a well known female character being gay, and I can't help but be really confused.

Not that confusing really. It's not about gay characters, it's about taking a character with more than a decade of history and fan attachments and a distinct lack of 'gayness' and 'making her gay' in the words of the author. To be fair to her, it was no more than a contemplation she had.

I can't help but notice that only a fraction of the detractors are saying that.

 

[A Distant Star]

Oh that! Yes now that actually looks like a very interesting game and I'm worried because Capcom is making it.
Yet it somehow looks...UNIQUE.
So apologies are in order

If it helps sooth your fears, Capcom is not making it, they are only handeling the distribution. French developer Dontnot Entertainmnet is the one who is making it.

 

[m19]

I can't help but notice that only a fraction of the detractors are saying that.

I bet if this was about a new character no one would say those things at all.

 

[Madara XIII]

Oh that! Yes now that actually looks like a very interesting game and I'm worried because Capcom is making it.
Yet it somehow looks...UNIQUE.
So apologies are in order

If it helps sooth your fears, Capcom is not making it, they are only handeling the distribution. French developer Dontnot Entertainmnet is the one who is making it.

Ah so like with Asura's Wrath. They just distributed while CC2 made the game.
Ok then thanks for quelling my fears.

 

[IamGamer41]

How can you people talk about a romantic fling thing with Lara and Sam when Sam clearly talked about them meeting cute guys? If there was something she wouldn't have brought that up. Just pandering to the gay/lesbian community. Don't retcon beloved characters into things just to please whatever happens to be a hot topic right now. Make genuine characters for these games or whatever.

 

[A Distant Star]

http://metro.co.uk/2013/03/04/rhianna-pratchett-on-reclaiming-lara-croft-and-having-discworld-creator-terry-as-a-dad-3522630/

An interview with Miss Pratchett where she doesn't discus Laras sexuality.

Also Pratchett seems to be a very charming woman.

 

[Erttheking]

I can't help but notice that only a fraction of the detractors are saying that.

I bet if this was about a new character no one would say those things at all.

I sincerely hope that you're right about that.

 

[m19]

How can you people talk about a romantic fling thing with Lara and Sam when Sam clearly talked about them meeting cute guys?

Because they make convoluted explanations about how that doesn't mean what's obviously implicit there.

 

[Treblaine]

Remember, publishers overwhelmingly don't play games, they are bankers and hedge fund managers and see video game publishing as easy money.

Quote of the day.

"I don't think I've actually seen a playable female protagonist kiss a guy in a game."

Just as rare as a male character kissing.

Untrue. I can think of a few examples of men kissing women in games, though it is also fairly rare it at least happens. Though I would argue that the treatment of male sexuality in video games is just as problematic as the treatment of female sexuality in games. I have said several times in this thread. Sex is humanizing, it creates a place of reliability, and while discussions of a PCs sex life and romance does not fit into every single game, as a medium it's almost completely white washed all together and this is a huge fucking problem. Sex is a grown up thing, and as long as video games want to be a grown up medium, we have to start addressing sex like grown ups.

You know, I agree with a lot of what you have to say,but your asesment of Lara as a sexual icon and sexism with in the industry are flat out wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_symbol#Video_games

Original Lara in many ways embodies a lot of the problems with video game portrayals of women. Not to the extreme of DoA: Beach Volley Ball or any thing like that its true (Though it did precede it) but she is the prime example of the objectified female heroin. She is aloud to be sexy (Large breasts and hips, thin waist, pouty lips, big eyes - all traits associated with hyper sexualisation) but not aloud to really be sexual (I dont know the Tomb Raider franchise that well so correct me if I am wrong, but she has never really been portrayed as having any sort of sexual interests to speak of that I am aware of.) on the other hand, she is also portrayed a whole lot more competent then the vast majority of many female protagonists out there. (The girls in DoA: Beach Volley Ball are just embarrassingly stupid) You're clearly a vary smart guy, but this is also apparently a huge bias blind spot for you.

I can think of a few examples of men kissing women in games

Like? The problem is they are extremely rare. I think a single quick kiss at the end of Uncharted 2 and by god if they didn't build up to it so you were ready for it. Like for example, Nathan and Elena don't even kiss at the end of Uncharted 1. And they only hug and hold hands at the end of Uncharted 3. I didn't say it was absent, I said it was rare, and Uncharted series has one of the most serious romances of a lead character in a structured (non-variable RPG style plot) in gaming. And they kiss once and it was a quick peck with the head to the back of the camera.

Did Dom kiss his brain-dead wife? Anyway, the point is PLAYER characters kissing, NPCs kissing is little different than watching a feature film and it's clear we don't have a problem with that. Let me see, Solid Snake? No. Oh, Big Boss in Metal Gear Solid 3 with Eva.

But the problem with bringing sex in is when it isn't used to humanise the PC but the manipulate the player to care about the PC's loved one being kidnapped by the Big Bad. And that's almost always a contrived motivation.


You're going to cite wikipedia on Lara Croft being a sex symbol, where the only sources to back that up are TABLOIDS! They can't even get their facts straight and we are supposed to trust their opinions? When they aren't lying about things like 50% of benefits going to illegal immigrants their opinions are extreme if they aren't irrelevant.

I was expecting a scholarly source, defining Sex Symbol and explaining how Lara Croft in her various depictions fit that role... not what non-gamers blindly label her.

I don't care what ignorant journalists think, I judge Lara by the games, not by the marketing morons or sensationalist pundits.

she is the prime example of the objectified female heroin.

That's both an unfortunate typo and a misuse of the term "sexual objectification". Remember, Heroin is the narcotic, Heroine is a female hero. Also, it's extremely redundant saying even "female heroine". It's like saying "female policewoman".

There are two types of "objects". Object as in "a tangible thing in stable form but generally not alive" and "a thing, person, or matter to which thought or action is directed"

Jim Sterling in this weeks Jimquisition talks about "putting them away when done" as if that's what objectification is, making them a non-living thing. But that's now what objectification is.

Sexual Objectification came from criticism of PASSIVE media like films and tv-shows which objected to how women were repeatedly objectified, and objectified in one sexual context or another. That means they were always having things done to them and it was usually for sex one way or another. Spied on by lecherous men, sought after by men for sexual role, princess kidnapped by villain.

But when it is a female who is both the protagonist and the player's sole perspective then they are universally the SUBJECT, not the object. This is the problem when a term coined for passive media is transposed to video games carelessly.

Remember, the subject does the thing.

The object has things done to them.

Lara Croft was not an object, she was the subject of a story all about her agency in a story of adventure, the game was all about her doing things to other people and things. She was a woman, and like all the male characters she was in prime physical condition.

She was not hyper-sexualised, she doesn't even show any cleavage. She has prominent female features in the same way the males in the same games had exaggerated male features, as the graphics did not allow for subtly in variation.

It's like Popeye's forearms, but all of his limbs. He makes Arnold Schwarzenegger look like a tofu munching hippie. He has a similarly extreme body proportion of shoulder width to waist.

Even in games with more advanced graphics it's well accepted when this is done with characters choosing radically different proportions such as Team Fortress 2; Heavy Weapons guy has arms that are longer than thicker than his legs!

not allowed to really be sexual

With this you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If Lara doesn't act sexual she's (inexplicably) objectified. If she does then she's just being a stripper.

So are you saying that Bayonetta is a better depiction of women in video games because she is flirting and toying with every guy she meets? Constantly striking sexy poses??!!? Because such character depiction was lambasted for that.

You're clearly a very smart guy, but this is also apparently a huge bias blind spot for you.

The blind spot is with you for not playing the games that you feel the authority to lecture me on, and not seeing contradictions like Lara not acting sexual yet being seen as sexy is a negative for that character.

 

[faefrost]

I wish game designers would remember that games are not movies. We put a part of ourselves into games and the characters we play. As a result some things are better left unsaid, to better allow us to see the story in our own personal way. If you as the player wish to perceive Lara as gay fine. Straight, great. Your own personal girlfriend, why he heck not. Sometimes saying less or telling less of the writers story allows the game itself to become more immersive.

Thi is a huge part of the appeal to Bethesdas take on the Elder Scrolls and Fallout games. By leaving these details to the players interpretation they increase the games incredibly sucking immersion. Whereas while Bioware does the best stories in the business, it is the moments in their games that force these types of issues that often seem to destroy the players connection to the game and its world.

 

[Luciella]

Maybe when its no longer an issue. Want to know why racism is still broached upon in videogames? Because racism still exists, and most developers seem to think that is a bad thing, and want to do something about it. How is it any different if the developer is trying to convery a viewpoint or start some thinking within the player about homosexuality and homophobia instead?

Yes and misogyny exists as well, and that doesn't stop everyone to know and try to do something about it (or be threatened to death and rape like Sarkeesian), but as well to be sick and tired of having to discuss it everyday, every month, every year.

Is "because I can still be kicked out of my apartment in 38 states without warning because my landlord is a 'phobe" a good enough answer for you?

Okay and?
Your case is sad and i cant do anything about it, but dont victimize yourself, your hardly the only suffering being on this earth for something u have being born with.
You know i could be kicked out of my apartment in any country of the world because im a female, and the owner could either be a misogynist or want to do me but i dont want to?
Sad case as well.

They want to do more than be a brainless game that actually tries to make a commentary. Now I wouldn't want every single game to be doing that, people still like Saints Row 3, but is that really such a bad thing, especially when few games are daring to be so brave about it? Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Spec Ops: The Line were extremely brave games, and people love them. To me, they were both their respective Game of the Year. Done poorly, commentary comes off like a bad high school environmental club project. Done well, and people will be talking about it for years, and it will change their life. Not done at all, and its a mindless time sink, which in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, if I were in the shoes of the artists behind the game, I would push for the former, and try to do something very meaningful.

Dude, i dont want it to be gay-meaningful. I dont like it, i dont want to have to now be fed by force about it like im being fed with bikini armors and -for show- female characters. Im tired, of having to yet again endure things i just dont like.
Want a gay-meaningful character? Its good, let the producers know and let them make a whole new game about that and targeted to the LGBT or whoever wants to watch. But i wont buy it, because im not interested on it as im not interested in say self-help books or advanced chemistry courses.

Maybe people like to combat a large portion of the population who doesn't even think homosexuality should be legal by telling them that their beliefs are outdated and no longer welcome in their circle?

Seriously, the only thing i want is to be respected as heterosexual.
Gays can go ahead and marry, adopt kids, have threesomes or whatever floats their boat.
I only want that something that is being sold to me stay the way it was originally thought and not changed because "hey ho! everybody is making something gay! here we go!"

They're not making it an H-game. The "OMG lesbians hawt!1!" fantasy is about sex and only sex. Nobody gets wet over thinking about how Lara's new girlfriend has been disowned by her family because she dared to be attracted to an intelligent, morally sound and successful archeologist.

Have you ever heard any guy talk about their lesbians fantasies?...Anything sells even a lil kiss. And personally im tired of enduring that.

Did you even read the article? The writer discussing this idea is a woman. This isn't an instance of "omg look lesbian titties dudes buy this game and jerk off now!" Its not Girls Gone Wild. Its serious, its mature, its critical, thought-provoking. Its simply art. Shouldn't we want some of that every now and then in our medium?

Yes i read it, and unnerves me that the writer would have "loved" to make Lara gay , because reading btwn lines "hey its easier to write about a powerful girl being gay -because it fits more the labels- than a capable, strong heterosexual woman"
Or simply go crazy and get fame out of the controversy.

 

[A Distant Star]

So are you saying that Bayonetta is a better depiction of women in video games because she is flirting and toying with every guy she meets? Constantly striking sexy poses??!!? Because such character depiction was lambasted for that.

I can not speak to Bayonetta, I know less about it then I do Tomb Raider. All I can say about Bayonetta is, man do I have a lot of female friends who sit all over the place on the sexual identity spectrum who love the shit out of that game.

There does come a point when I am unable to talk about Tomb Raider the game, I have only played the very first one and the newest one. (loved the newest one found the first one almost unplayable) So yes, I will gladly admit my own ignorance towards the character as she exists with in the archetype of her own games... cause I really dont know shit about shit. I should have been more clear, I am talking about Lara Croft the pop culture icon, who had at one point, grown far beyond the scope of her games.

 

[Treblaine]

How can you people talk about a romantic fling thing with Lara and Sam when Sam clearly talked about them meeting cute guys?

Because they make convoluted explanations about how that doesn't mean what's obviously implicit there.

What's obviously implicit is that Sam thought those guys were cute and not necessarily anyone else thought that.

What Sam thinks is not the same as what Lara thinks. They are two separate individuals.

If you read the interview you'll find Rihanna Pretchett didn't actually make any decisions nor discuss this with anyone else in the creative team, still Lara's sexuality is undecided.

Don't retcon beloved characters into things just to please whatever happens to be a hot topic right now. Make genuine characters for these games or whatever.

It is genuine. Lara's sexuality has never been explicit before.

Stop acting like this ruins her.

And don't complain about pandering when the pandering here is clear. It is the pandering to savage and grim violence, in what's supposed to be a relatively non-violent game about the wonder of exploration and discovery the game has been turned into some guerilla warfare game of cover-based shooting and such a lack of any exploration, with the simplest environmental challenges.

You know I look back and forth between the video Jim made about how there needs to be more women in games and everyone being on board with that, and this thread with people being against a well known female character being gay, and I can't help but be really confused.

Not that confusing really. It's not about gay characters, it's about taking a character with more than a decade of history and fan attachments and a distinct lack of 'gayness' and 'making her gay' in the words of the author. To be fair to her, it was no more than a contemplation she had.

Lack of gayness?!?!!? WHAT!!! You can't be serious.

Being Gay isn't an attitude, it's simply the gender preference in intimate relationships. There is not "ness" about it, there is not "Straightness" unless you are talking about geometry.

And she's never had any intimate relationships in any of the previous games. She's never given any indication of her preference of all the men and women she's met she'd never hinted at sexual interest in either. If you've made any assumption about her sexual preference it's exactly that, assumption.

And you're in no position to complain about the series being changed, it has bloody well changed, from the magical feeling of adventure and mysticism to harrowing horror of killing, by Tomb Raider being another cover based shooter with brutal neck snapping silent-takedowns and the lead character crying her eyes out over the horror of it all.