Tomb Raider's Pratchett Calls 2013 A Good Year for Female Characters

[Dark Knifer]

Was it?

To be fair I haven't played tomb raider or last of us but I did play infinite and I found elizabeth mostly forgettable. No female character in video games has stuck out to me as great in the writing capacity but video games are still in the early stages of writing so it feels lesser then other mediums at the moment. I'm hoping this changes though but unlike bioshock infinite, they should still put a lot of work into the gameplay as opposed to having cutscenes do all the story and feeling and the gameplay just sort of there.

Wonder if there will be discussions of lack of non-white characters soon after this blows over.

EDIT: Actually, considering this was all triple a games, not smaller ones then yeah, I guess it was ok. It's rare triple a does much of anything right so having some kind of female representation is good I suppose. Now lets hope they start improving the quality of the writing next. Maybe we can have a video game equivalent of breaking bad quality with a large cast of very memorable selection of characters. Perhaps telltale.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

" a panel about gender in videogames"... Video games by committee here we come.

Hasn't that been going on for a while now?
At least in the triple A industry. Not all the time, but often.

Seriously though, it's a shame she's ignoring all the great and even over represented females in games in the hidden object/point and click adventure games.

True. There are quite a lot of those.

Spoiler: And if what the Extra Credit gang says is true...

Some are pretty darn good too.

To be fair though, I wouldn't be surprised if she just doesn't know about them, like James did.

Hidden Object games aren't exactly in the lime light of the industry.

You could say that the games are almost, hidden. <.<



[sub][sub]Come on, how could I not?[/sub][/sub]

Also,

Spoiler: to a later comment you made.

"We don't need some panel designed, paint by numbers, mandated female added to every game. It detracts from the genuinely good characters."

Where does it say that what she wants is a girl shoehorned into every video game?
It sounded more like she just wants people to talk about gender in games more often, and bring in more writers early on when making a game.

P.S. Balthier rules. =w= b[sub](<-Thumbs up face)[/sub]

And cue internet death threats in 3...2...1...

<.< If she hasn't had some already...

And, of course, many people call the new Tomb Raider sexist. I'm pretty sure you can make literally any game sexist if you look at it from the right angle.

That's the problem. Don't put women in a game - it's sexist for not having women. Put a woman in a game - people scrutinise everything about her to find something that is sexist. Have a woman in a game with nothing that can possibly be sexist - call it sexist anyway, no one will check.

True. There will always be complaints, and criticism of any game.
However, it doesn't take much to separate bad complaints, and fair criticisms with points.

As long as we don't let it get us all down, and keep moving forward, we should be fine.

Two of the highest grossing films of last year, Hunger Games and Frozen, both starring strong female leads.

I certainly wouldn't complain if more games had characters like that in leading roles.

Spoiler: Mages Rule.

0w0 b

[https://imageshack.com/i/07g7gxj]

 

[Erttheking]

And cue internet death threats in 3...2...1...

And, of course, many people call the new Tomb Raider sexist. I'm pretty sure you can make literally any game sexist if you look at it from the right angle.

That's the problem. Don't put women in a game - it's sexist for not having women. Put a woman in a game - people scrutinise everything about her to find something that is sexist. Have a woman in a game with nothing that can possibly be sexist - call it sexist anyway, no one will check.

Yeah, possibly. But what are you supposed to do, just stop trying? As a writer, I positively love writing female characters, and frankly I've yet to get any flak for my characters being sexist. People need to learn to tell the difference between legitimate complaints of sexism and people who are just clutching at straws. Not to mention people will always call a game sexist? Yeah, but people will also always call a game shit no matter what it does, and that hasn't stopped developers, why should this?

The thing is, Lara Croft has been my poster girl for why feminist criticism can be unjust. She's a strong, independent, confident, athletic character, but she also had big breasts, and suddenly everything good about her seemed to vanish in feminist critique. 90% good, but 10% bad, focus on the 10% bad because it isn't perfect. It's created something of a stigma of a "pass/fail" viewpoint that may never be met. A shower scene, an optional outfit, a moment of needing rescuing, let's just say sometimes it does feel like people are looking for something to complain about rather than thank someone for the good points that are there.

Don't you know, sexy girls don't have character at all, in fact they have no worth and isn't capable of jack shit, besides being gawk at, which is why the Old Lara Croft is sexist. So hat if she was a anti-hero, who loved raiding tombs, going on adventure since she was a little girl, fighting mythical and rare creatures,and saving the world once or twice. She has large tits, was a sex icon for western gaming, and fuck it she was sexy as hell. That means she has no character, no worth, and it's sexist against women because of it. You need "real" women to represent in videogames better.

You know, I feel like you're missing the point that people who argue against sexualized female characters are trying to get at. It's not that they're against female characters that are sexy, it's that they're against sexy female characters who are sexy for the sake of being sexy, even if it makes no sense in the context of the story. A seductress like Poison Ivy, makes sense for her to be sexy. A sex power fantasy like Bayonetta, who is flirty, sultry, and uses BDSM attacks, makes sense for her to be sexy. Lara Croft, a wealthy heiress and archeologist...what's the point of her being sexy aside from cheap titillation? It doesn't compliment her character in any way. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but don't act surprised when people criticize it.

 

[Redd the Sock]

And cue internet death threats in 3...2...1...

And, of course, many people call the new Tomb Raider sexist. I'm pretty sure you can make literally any game sexist if you look at it from the right angle.

That's the problem. Don't put women in a game - it's sexist for not having women. Put a woman in a game - people scrutinise everything about her to find something that is sexist. Have a woman in a game with nothing that can possibly be sexist - call it sexist anyway, no one will check.

Yeah, possibly. But what are you supposed to do, just stop trying? As a writer, I positively love writing female characters, and frankly I've yet to get any flak for my characters being sexist. People need to learn to tell the difference between legitimate complaints of sexism and people who are just clutching at straws. Not to mention people will always call a game sexist? Yeah, but people will also always call a game shit no matter what it does, and that hasn't stopped developers, why should this?

The thing is, Lara Croft has been my poster girl for why feminist criticism can be unjust. She's a strong, independent, confident, athletic character, but she also had big breasts, and suddenly everything good about her seemed to vanish in feminist critique. 90% good, but 10% bad, focus on the 10% bad because it isn't perfect. It's created something of a stigma of a "pass/fail" viewpoint that may never be met. A shower scene, an optional outfit, a moment of needing rescuing, let's just say sometimes it does feel like people are looking for something to complain about rather than thank someone for the good points that are there.

Don't you know, sexy girls don't have character at all, in fact they have no worth and isn't capable of jack shit, besides being gawk at, which is why the Old Lara Croft is sexist. So hat if she was a anti-hero, who loved raiding tombs, going on adventure since she was a little girl, fighting mythical and rare creatures,and saving the world once or twice. She has large tits, was a sex icon for western gaming, and fuck it she was sexy as hell. That means she has no character, no worth, and it's sexist against women because of it. You need "real" women to represent in videogames better.

You know, I feel like you're missing the point that people who argue against sexualized female characters are trying to get at. It's not that they're against female characters that are sexy, it's that they're against sexy female characters who are sexy for the sake of being sexy, even if it makes no sense in the context of the story. A seductress like Poison Ivy, makes sense for her to be sexy. A sex power fantasy like Bayonetta, who is flirty, sultry, and uses BDSM attacks, makes sense for her to be sexy. Lara Croft, a wealthy heiress and archeologist...what's the point of her being sexy aside from cheap titillation? It doesn't compliment her character in any way. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but don't act surprised when people criticize it.

It was actually a woman that gave me the Lara Croft thing. She, being a naturally well endowed woman was (and still is) very tired of characters like her being dismissed due to her figure. It was pretty much telling her that everything she accomplished would seem worthless to [certain] other people because she's a natural DD cup. That if she wants to be an archeologist, or academic, she needs to dress like a frump to be taken seriously. I think there's even some feelings of betrayal, as feminism had largely been about not judging someone by their looks, but by their character and personality, and here were women summing up a character in her breasts, or in her outfit.

I mean, people can dislike whatever they want, but that feminist stigma I mentioned is kept alive by attitudes like veing overly critical of something being sexy without a realy realy good reason, especially at the expense of acknowledging more positive traits.

 

[Erttheking]

And cue internet death threats in 3...2...1...

And, of course, many people call the new Tomb Raider sexist. I'm pretty sure you can make literally any game sexist if you look at it from the right angle.

That's the problem. Don't put women in a game - it's sexist for not having women. Put a woman in a game - people scrutinise everything about her to find something that is sexist. Have a woman in a game with nothing that can possibly be sexist - call it sexist anyway, no one will check.

Yeah, possibly. But what are you supposed to do, just stop trying? As a writer, I positively love writing female characters, and frankly I've yet to get any flak for my characters being sexist. People need to learn to tell the difference between legitimate complaints of sexism and people who are just clutching at straws. Not to mention people will always call a game sexist? Yeah, but people will also always call a game shit no matter what it does, and that hasn't stopped developers, why should this?

The thing is, Lara Croft has been my poster girl for why feminist criticism can be unjust. She's a strong, independent, confident, athletic character, but she also had big breasts, and suddenly everything good about her seemed to vanish in feminist critique. 90% good, but 10% bad, focus on the 10% bad because it isn't perfect. It's created something of a stigma of a "pass/fail" viewpoint that may never be met. A shower scene, an optional outfit, a moment of needing rescuing, let's just say sometimes it does feel like people are looking for something to complain about rather than thank someone for the good points that are there.

Don't you know, sexy girls don't have character at all, in fact they have no worth and isn't capable of jack shit, besides being gawk at, which is why the Old Lara Croft is sexist. So hat if she was a anti-hero, who loved raiding tombs, going on adventure since she was a little girl, fighting mythical and rare creatures,and saving the world once or twice. She has large tits, was a sex icon for western gaming, and fuck it she was sexy as hell. That means she has no character, no worth, and it's sexist against women because of it. You need "real" women to represent in videogames better.

You know, I feel like you're missing the point that people who argue against sexualized female characters are trying to get at. It's not that they're against female characters that are sexy, it's that they're against sexy female characters who are sexy for the sake of being sexy, even if it makes no sense in the context of the story. A seductress like Poison Ivy, makes sense for her to be sexy. A sex power fantasy like Bayonetta, who is flirty, sultry, and uses BDSM attacks, makes sense for her to be sexy. Lara Croft, a wealthy heiress and archeologist...what's the point of her being sexy aside from cheap titillation? It doesn't compliment her character in any way. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but don't act surprised when people criticize it.

It was actually a woman that gave me the Lara Croft thing. She, being a naturally well endowed woman was (and still is) very tired of characters like her being dismissed due to her figure. It was pretty much telling her that everything she accomplished would seem worthless to [certain] other people because she's a natural DD cup. That if she wants to be an archeologist, or academic, she needs to dress like a frump to be taken seriously. I think there's even some feelings of betrayal, as feminism had largely been about not judging someone by their looks, but by their character and personality, and here were women summing up a character in her breasts, or in her outfit.

I mean, people can dislike whatever they want, but that feminist stigma I mentioned is kept alive by attitudes like veing overly critical of something being sexy without a realy realy good reason, especially at the expense of acknowledging more positive traits.

And that's a fair point. I think the problem is less that people are tired of sexy female characters, and more that they're tired of a lack of alternative to sexy female characters. Even Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite showed off a fair bit of skin at one point, although granted that was more to show vulnerability than to titillate...but still. Frankly I'm just getting tired of people who constantly go to the lowest common denominator. It comes off as lazy. So really, at the end of the day, the thing that's more of a problem than anything else is a lack of variety. Lara Croft is probably pretty good all things considered, but she's probably a sore spot for a lot of people because she's a beautiful, well endowed sexy woman in an industry where that seems to be the only acceptable thing for them to be. It's like white straight men with brown hair in their mid thirties in gaming. Sure, there are probably some good ones, but for the love of God, can we please get something else? Just to change things up?

 

[Something Amyss]

We don't need some panel designed, paint by numbers, mandated female added to every game. It detracts from the genuinely good characters.

You say it distracts from the good characters, but really it distracts from the panel designed, paint by numbers, mandated generic white dude.

And that's the problem. At worst, at absolute worst, you're getting the same thing you're already getting, but with polygon boobs.

 

[Something Amyss]

I mean, people can dislike whatever they want, but that feminist stigma I mentioned is kept alive by attitudes like veing overly critical of something being sexy without a realy realy good reason, especially at the expense of acknowledging more positive traits.

I think that point might be more topical except it's not done without reason. I mean, pretty much any woman is required to be a buxom, DD or higher sex pot in games. Taking issue with Lara Croft doesn't happen in a vacuum, it happens because almost every other game does it as well.

In the end, isn't it a problem that people are resistant to the point of hostility at the notion that a woman can be in a game (especially as a protagonist) and not be spank material? Would it be so bad if Lara only had like, a C cup? Apparently so, because the reboot got tons of complaints because she didn't have big boobs. And you know what? I find the new Lara pretty attractive. It's not like she's even ugly, or mousey, or whatever. She's still a hot series of polygons with attractive features and the capacity to kick ass (whether it makes sense to the narrative or not). It's not as thuogh the point of contention was her attractiveness, but there you have it.

 

[Scootinfroodie]

Would it be so bad if Lara only had like, a C cup?

Does Laura's breast reduction make her in any way a better character?
If the overall goal is more variety, then the idea should be to make NEW characters
Altering a pre-existing character, especially what is arguably THE most prominent female character within the medium, in such a superficial manner implies that there was a flaw with the way she was before. Ultimately in this case it implies that you can't have a "strong" female character unless her bust size is reigned in. What does that say about people who really do have larger bust sizes?
That's certainly not my MAIN issue with the new Laura, or even one of the top 3, but it IS an issue. The implication that a larger bust size is "wrong" or makes a character less worthy of being a "strong female character" in itself is sexist, the prominence of female sexual characteristics being the target of criticism.

As for the paint-by-numbers business, that's already what we got with Tomb Raider and Remember Me. Both were so boring and stereotypical that I question why either got any attention. Every year we get superior stories/gameplay experiences featuring children, women, robots, aliens and all manner of other character options and prominent non-player options, they just primarily happen outside of AAA space. This is because the current primary demographic for AAA games has shown time and time again that what it's interested in are safe rehashes and copy-paste mechanics, just like how other media tend to get more boring and copy-paste as you work your way into the more commercially successful products.

Concerning the original post:
I feel like people are trying really hard at this point to elevate actions that really should just be normalized. Plenty of games have come out every year with either A: a woman as a protagonist or B: the option to play as a woman or a man (or, in some cases, whatever you feel like on that day). Only recently has this become a "big thing" in the sense that people are making huge sweeping statements about the entire medium based on what is usually a very small sample size, and are usually devoid of contextual details like actual demand and the existence of gaming outside of the AAA (generaly console-focused) gaming space.

Most of the games that have come out recently that have prominently featured women felt pretty mediocre, and it really seemed like the female protagonist bit was just used for the usual PR shit-stirring in place of a quality product. Also, I question the validity of listing shows that have been going on for some time now as examples of 2013 in itself being a good year. Additionally, Ms Pratchett's remarks feel more self-congratulatory than anything else.