Total Biscuit vs the Jimquisition

[Gatx]

No this isn't a topic about whose videos are better or who's has the more abrasive personality, rather the used games debate is heating up (again?) and Total Biscuit is making his opinion heard, and taking an opposing view from the Escapist's own British internet personality no less.


I've only seen the Jimquisition video, and haven't had the chance to watch this one yet, but I figured it'd be good to make it known here for discussion sake.

 

[Assassin Xaero]

Oh, yah, now his cult is going to go around spamming this video every time this debate comes up going on about how horrible used games are.

 

[BrotherRool]

His point is pretty good. The stuff companies like Game do are pretty despicable and hurt the developers and it's always better for the developer to buy new.

I think though, that I don't want it to be taken away from me so aggressively. Whats particular important is that it's hard to buy old console games cheaply. And if we remove used games, that's not going to change.

 

[Gatx]

Oh, yah, now his cult is going to go around spamming this video every time this debate comes up going on about how horrible used games are.

There's a good number of people in the comments of that video who've voiced their disagreement so they haven't ALL been brainwashed.

 

[rofltehcat]

There is already a pretty extensive thread about it. Or at least there was one tonight, so it might be on page 2.

Other than that, remember that Jim is going at this issue from the consumer side whereas TB is going at it from an industry perspective.
His vid made me understand DLC etc. a lot better but I still think that MS is going at this from the wrong angle and should instead use Steam-style sales. And if you watch TB's video to the end, he is even saying himself that MS is going at this the wrong way and at the wrong time.

 

[Hazzard]

I understand both sides of the argument, I come down in favour of Jim's view though.
It works on PC because Microsoft has a fairly hands off approach and hasn't done anything to restrict digital distribution so we have competition.

 

[Another]

His vid made me understand DLC etc. a lot better but I still think that MS is going at this from the wrong angle and should instead use Steam-style sales. And if you watch TB's video to the end, he is even saying himself that MS is going at this the wrong way and at the wrong time.

I also liked the fact that he brought up that this is actually about a battle for profits between Gamestop and MS, and that the consumer isn't at fault for wanting to buy cheap. I think that's something important to clarify, and something MS should have said straight out. One of the reasons I'm mad at Microsoft is because I feel like I'm being targeted as a consumer, but if there are other reasons MS needs to voice them.

 

[Hazzard]

I hardly see why we should start doing as the publishers say when it suits them and not us, they make massive profits off of games and the rest of the industry suffers from it.

Captcha; Diddly-squat
That's about as much as the shops make on brand new games.

 

[Stinovitch]

Wasn't there another thread who had exactly the same topic?
Anyway, here's what I said there:

Actually I'm on neither side and I can understand both point of views. Limiting the games to one account only is kind of a sad thing since I can remember the fun I had while playing a game I took to friend's house. They're actually taking what I consider the best thing of a console away, namely the fact that you could play one game on different consoles. But it does indeed hurt the industry by buying used games en masse, because they don't get any money from those sales. That's also why I didn't think the online pass was such a bad idea. Like total buscuit said, you're paying for the online service the creators provide.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Points, as I hear them...

- The game industry is incapable of innovation, that lowers overhead, and shifts revenue generation away from exclusively new game purchases?

- Game developers and publishers don't already merchandise, do cross-over advertising, make multi-media crossovers, and earn royalties based upon their intellectual property?

- Chain retail stores generally don't sell used games in-store, just like they don't sell used DVD's or CD's. A consumer still must go to a specialty outlet to buy used games, just as they do DVD's or CD's. Game retailers, even multinational game retailers, are still specialty stores.

- There's no backlash against DLC. There's a backlash against DLC that is low quality, extraneous, story- or plot-necessary, or original content stripped from the game exclusively for the purpose of monetization.

- Who's paying for the servers? Well, in the case of the 360 or the PC, or MMO's F2P or subscription, the consumer is, and it's a voluntary choice on the part of the developer and publisher to include online portions of the game that requires they operate and maintain servers. When in the case, such as that of EA, that online portion is necessary for even offline gameplay, that is on their head and their cost to bear.

- What of games like ME3 that incorporate both an online pass, and a F2P model to recoup maintenance and operation costs? If one or the other is needed, why incorporate both "merely" to operate the game?

- Since when did non-triple-A games or indie games sell at triple-A title price? The MSRP on triple-A titles, which is the source of, and the center of, the argument on game price points is not going down but for digital distributor sales -- distributors, mind you, like Steam who in most cases aren't even the publishers! Publisher-ran distribution services like Origin sell at MSRP and don't have sales!

 

[The Lyre]

To summarise;

Sterling: Stop blaming retail stores, it's all because of the publishers! Microsoft is ruining the video games industry!

Bain: Stop blaming the developers and the publishers, it's all because of the retail stores! Blame Gamestop! Used games are ruining the video games industry!


I'm grossly oversimplifying, but I feel like they've both got tunnel vision. No one is innocent here. The stores and the publishers are all sharks trying to take chunks out of each other - and us.

Publishers demand a large share of new game sales, so retail stores turn to used games.

Used games and piracy start to pose a vague, murky threat to publisher profits, so they start introducing DRM and online passes.

DRM and online passes cut into the used games markets, so retail stores start pressuring developers into preorder bonuses, under threat of boycotting their products.

There isn't a 'good guy' here, except - maybe - the developers, the ickle dolphins in a pool of big angry sharks with big angry hardons for profit.

 

[Assassin Xaero]

Oh, yah, now his cult is going to go around spamming this video every time this debate comes up going on about how horrible used games are.

The cult of whom? Both Jim and TB have a giant number of followers who take their words as universal truth and assume they can end a discussion by just blabber "hurr durr he said it". I for one disagreed with Jim when his video released based on several reasons TB gave (I especially fail to understand how Jim doesn't see the dependance of gaming of retail stores which have quite lots of control due to that) but I would not take TBs video as the only true opinion on that.

I haven't seen anyone do that with Jim's videos (not saying they don't exist), but I've seen various people go and say "TB said it so it is true" and any time I asked them, all they could do was link his youtube videos. A lot of this was for the whole "preorders being evil" thing.

 

[The_Lost_King]

I actually agree with TB. I feel bad for the developers who get shafted(and the publishers as long as they deserve it). He brings up some really good points. I think the extra $5 is worth it, because that money is going to the developers. I still don't like what Microsoft are doing though, seeing as you can't even borrow a game, which is total bullshit.

 

[Gatx]

There is already a pretty extensive thread about it. Or at least there was one tonight, so it might be on page 2.

Wasn't there another thread who had exactly the same topic?

I checked, guys, honest, but the closest thing I found was a topic about if people knew who TB was and their opinion of him. Granted I just looked at the titles so might've missed it if it wasn't straight to the point.

 

[BeeGeenie]

I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Biscuit. Kind of.

As he pointed out, the music industry attempts to get money through royalties. So why isn't the game industry demanding royalties from Gamestop on each used copy sold? Because they prefer to stomp on the little guy, the consumer, rather than have to hurt their relationship with their primary distributors.

I will agree with him that digital distribution cutting out the greedy middleman is the wave of the future, and for that reason PC is best console.

 

[Atmos Duality]

He's describing what is just one side of a big game of tug-of-war between the Used Sales Cartel and the Publisher Kingpins. The problem is that the kind of sale (New/Used) COMPLETELY POLARIZES who gets most if not all of the profits on that sale.

I had a mouthful to say about the matter, but I'm just dumping it here.

Spoiler: Omissions

If it's a New Sale, the retailer gets close to nothing. Why? Because the "standard" consumer-accepted price is around 40-70 USD and the publisher is selling the copies fairly close to that limit already. There's little margin to upcharge on, which is problematic if you're trying to sell games.

If it's a Used Sale, the publisher sees nothing and the retailer keeps it all.

And while I'm on the subject, if you're dealing with a AAA publisher, it's safe to assume the developer sees jack-fucking-squat from a new sale directly...mostly because they work on contract and were paid months before anyone ever touched the game.
(The people doing the lion's share of the work get the beggar's share of the pot because the publisher is shouldering the financial risk. Think of it like medieval monarchies, only with less nepotism.)

The other big problem I have with his argument is simple: If those particular retailers are jacking the publisher so badly that it's killing business, WHY ARE THEY STILL DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM?

It's not as though the publishers have No Alternative: There are many big brick and mortar departments that don't deal in Used Games at all. Why not take their business to them instead? There is nothing stopping the publishers from moving their business exclusively to places that deliberately sell very near the margin like Wal-Mart.

Well, the obvious answer, is that once the totals are tallied and the beans counted, places like Gamestop must be GOOD for the publisher. It's not just Gamestop raiding the shipping lines either; many of these publishers gladly do promos with Gamestop, despite all of the suppose hatred they have for each other.

As a PC gamer (Like TB), I've dealt with no used games for a long time already, but my take is a bit different than TB's.

Used Games were one of the strengths a console could legitimately tout over PC gaming, stemming from the ability to keep a physical copy of the title. Even Steam, as benevolent as Valve has tried to be, will inevitably, someday, fall.
(though some nutter is going to keep those games archived; yes, probably those pirates everyone loves to hate)

More importantly, Used Games were a direct representation of Neutral Ground. If the copy breaks, you done goofed.
However, that copy lives or dies largely on the actions of its owner(s), and not from the company that made it.

A few digital distribution sites do this in essence as well (GOG) but they are in the minority by far, and generally only peddle software that publishers think have little inherent value anyway.

So, what does M$ killing used games on its system mean? It means games on their platform will be pushed even further into the realm of "Planned obsolescence". With more market control comes increased incentive to exploit (it's why consumers should fear monopolies and not buy into systems that continuously strip control away from them. Unfortunately, most consumers are stupid sheep in that regard).

Some companies take their market control and leverage exploitation in new and interesting ways (as Valve does with Steam; they openly encourage their users to join in) but most are just going to milk their customers dry the old fashioned way with price hikes and keep-away systems.

I am mostly a PC gamer; I own a 3DS, a Wii (used to play Gamecube games and nothing else[sub]...fucking worthless piece of shit..[/sub]) and a PSP.
The most recent home console I own that I don't regret purchasing is a PS2. In short, I only use the Used Games market for OLD ASS TITLES. All of the most current games I do play I either play or watch my friends play on their consoles (usually via rental) or play on PC.

My take on the whole Used Games is a bit different than TB's.
For one, all I see are two greedy bastards trying to find ways of screwing each other out of the cash pot.

Second, Used Games stems from the notion of games being products instead of services; which as a consumer, is a plus.
It provides a sense of neutral ground; that the game's effective lifespan is determined by the actions of its owner rather than the company that made it.
That genuine tangibility was one of the few remaining strengths consoles had over PC.

Welp. That's going away. And since Micorsoft has decided to be absolute fucking bastards about who controls what, you can either go to Sony, or just game on PC; at least on PC, there are many more avenues for distribution (contrary to what you've heard, it's not just all about Steam) and more competition.

[sub](What about Nintendo? Well..."WiiU? LOL. No.")[/sub]

 

[rofltehcat]

There is already a pretty extensive thread about it. Or at least there was one tonight, so it might be on page 2.

Wasn't there another thread who had exactly the same topic?

I checked, guys, honest, but the closest thing I found was a topic about if people knew who TB was and their opinion of him. Granted I just looked at the titles so might've missed it if it wasn't straight to the point.

This thread here. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.409099-Used-games]

It was 4 threads after this one (before I bumped this thread, ofc)