Tracer #Buttgate - Shots fired by professional cosplayer at Heroes Championships

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Paragon Fury

The Loud Shadow
Jan 23, 2009
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Bad Jim said:
wulf3n said:
Bad Jim said:
Paragon Fury said:
Um, the girl in the picture is not the girl in the video.
What makes you say that?
It's a distinctly asian girl in the video. She has brown eyes, while the girl in the pic has blue or maybe green eyes. Hard to tell through an orange mask but they're not brown. The light on her back is white in the picture while the girl in the video wears blue lights. And the girl in the pic is posing with her butt to the right while the girl in the video poses with her butt to the left.
Considering the picture came from Tasha's own Facebook and Twitter and she said "Here is another picture of my Tracer cosplay"...yeah.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Elijin said:
It was not my intent to imply they caved to the initial case, but simply were still in the design stage and saw no issue with tweaking it in the same direction as the feedback. They didnt care, so moving in the same direction was easy.

So yeah, I feel more like they were on the fence, and they got feedback in a particular direction, so they went with it.

Now they've gone with it, they're not going to backflip though.
Apologies, "caved" wasn't aimed at you so much as addressing a common word in the controversy. My point was more that it seems to make little sense to go with one dissenting voice (the feedback seemed to be mostly against this even before the decision) against the larger body.
 

CritialGaming

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Cryselle said:
CritialGaming said:
Actually I am mocking the fact that people complained that they purposely showed off Widowmaker's ass when she fell to the ground in the original cinematic trailer. Then, after just removing a butt shot from in-game, they reveal a featurette that has Tracer fall to the ground and show her in the exact same pose that people complained about Windowmaker months ago.

Now cinematic's are story-boarded and made over the course of months, even years. So that butt shot was probably animated and put into the short film months before #buttgate. However a simple two second cut, and it goes away. So why, after butt's became a no-no (at least for Tracer) did they leave it in?

All I'm trying to say is. Don't take my butt shots away from me in one place, but leave them in others. It makes my penis very very confused.
Because the problem from Blizzard's angle was never the butt? They don't have a problem with people seeing Tracer's butt, or characters with sexy poses. The problem was, very specifically, Tracer intentionally striking a pose to show off her butt, which was a dubious match for the personality that they are pushing with the character. I daresay that they'd be disappointed if nobody thought Tracer was hot, they're just going for the 'coincidentally hot' over Widowmaker's 'intentionally hot'.
I made the argument in another thread. But I made the point that Tracer is the kind of girl who would be "mockingly hot". Her over the shoulder pose is perfectly in character when you consider the possibly that she is striking the pose to "mock" Widowmaker. Plus when you consider that the pose on Tracer isn't even really all that sexy, it fits into her playful nature all the better. The whole point the got the pose removed was ill-conceived anyway because it points out all these personality traits onto a character that really doesn't show evidence of said traits.

Spunky? Maybe.
Fast? Sure, I guess. I mean her device allows her to screw with time, it's not really fast, it's time manipulation. But okay.
Kind? Again Maybe. She seemed nice enough to the little boy's in the trailer. So yeah, sure.
Good friend? We have no evidence of this. Possibly better to call her a good team mate, but there is no proof that she is fun to chill with, have a beer, go to a club, other simply do anything with.

Tell you what I've seen of her. Especially in this last little movie.

Tracer's outward perkiness is a cover. In battle she is easily rattled, as Windowmaker's attacks and confidence completely shook her. She faltered, she failed in everything she was trying to do in this little film. Widowmaker manipulated her, used her to not only escape, but also get her own mission done. It left Tracer, sad, scared, and feeble. She was made to look like a fool.

Nowhere in that film did I see the Spunk, nowhere did I see her being a good friend. I saw her kindness, reflected in her sadness for the failure of her ability to protect the robot dude. I saw her speed, again in her time device, not her actual physical speed as she physically couldn't keep up with Widowmaker and without her device, Widowmaker would have been even more successful, though that is despite the point.

Anyway, I'll miss her booty. But it's cool, I'll just watch the short movies.
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
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#Buttgate.........seriously?

*sigh* I just died a little on the inside. I swear, if it weren't for the unexplored, infinite mountains of porn I'd say I hate the internet. >.>
 

runic knight

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So non-sexual pose gets pulled because of what i can only assume was something akin to a trained knee-jerk response to someone criticizing it for being sexual/making them uncomfortable. People respond calling the change out for being misguided puritan appeasement and general stir shit up because despite general claims of "there is no slippery slope" things seem to have slid down the chain a bit, going from removal of sexual outfits and not releasing sexy games in north america, to removing a butt-slap, to now removing a pose because the butt is seen. I can certainly understand why people are getting more and more upset with such changes, at the core it is pandering to the same sort of moral authoritarians that gamers have fought against about violent content for decades. "This offends me so remove it" is always going to draw backlash when companies bend-knee to do it, and the more inane the removal, the greater confusion and call-out of the censorship. Oh, and then a cosplayer showed off the pose and it was seen as a mockign slap toward blizzard's decision. Still not sure I follow what was going on about why that was important.

This does seem to be the way fights are fought now though. Outrage, once limited to a single side of the moral authoritarians, has now been accepted as the battlefield in general, with people not happy about pushes for changes because of the offended turning to outrage in return. Not entirely unwise, as doing so means there is no "safe" decision, there will always bee a shitshow if you have people demanding change, be it when you don't and the moral authoritarians start to take up arms, and now if you do and the people who wanted the product as it was do. No way to avoid controversy, so it effectively makes such outrage-controversies less useful as a tool to push changes. I can only hope that the complete worthlessness of outrage in those cases soon gets seen and companies go back to seeing what the paying customers want rather than listening to the ideologically motivated. When outrage mongers and click-bait publications become whitenoise in the gaming world, it will be a better day for gamers, that is for sure.

On the topic itself, the pose seems to fit the character, the complaint against it seemed like someone intentionally seeking something to complain about, the change to remove it seems entirely Pavlonian on blizzard's part, and the backlash they got for it is quickly becoming the predictable norm and a demonstration that there is no safety in trying to simply appease the morally outraged anymore. The people outraged by the change aren't looking good, though I have to say they still come out better then the ones who wanted the change in the first place, yesh.

On regard to complaining about the people complaining about the change. Outrage has gone full circle, any decision is now going to generate it. Complaining about one group complaining after the change with arguments like "what about creator integrity" after the product was already changed because of other people's complaints is simply a terrible stance though.
 

runic knight

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Dgezar said:
runic knight said:
So non-sexual pose gets pulled because of what i can only assume Snip
There's your problem. Don't assume, and you won't spend a page opining based on those questionable assumptions. Besides, you have options other than to assume.
And many of my opinions weren't based on that assumption either, merely kicked off by them with regard to commenting on the controversy itself. But what is your point here? Not seeing a lot of hard facts on this one though, just a lot of conjecture about why parties acted the way they did, and a very corporate-sounding line coming from blizzard. What do you recommend as an alternative to assuming, and what about my assumptions were incorrect?
 

Fdzzaigl

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Mar 31, 2010
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Girls (and men too) post the most sexy poses by their own volitation all day on facebook and other social media, yet when a game character does it, it suddenly isn't OK? Ridiculous, and this cosplay shows it all the more.

It's like we've reverted back in time to the 50's or something.
 

F-I-D-O

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Feb 18, 2010
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CritialGaming said:
F-I-D-O said:
Aw man, it's as if surrounding context was the entire point of the initial complaint and pose removal. It's almost like taking things out of context can cause misrepresentations of the intended purpose. But, surely every time a character's ass has ever been on camera has the exact same intended purpose. /s
Actually I am mocking the fact that people complained that they purposely showed off Widowmaker's ass when she fell to the ground in the original cinematic trailer. Then, after just removing a butt shot from in-game, they reveal a featurette that has Tracer fall to the ground and show her in the exact same pose that people complained about Windowmaker months ago.

Now cinematic's are story-boarded and made over the course of months, even years. So that butt shot was probably animated and put into the short film months before #buttgate. However a simple two second cut, and it goes away. So why, after butt's became a no-no (at least for Tracer) did they leave it in?

All I'm trying to say is. Don't take my butt shots away from me in one place, but leave them in others. It makes my penis very very confused.
See, there's that word context. It gives meaning to why they might mirror elements from the original cinematic, but not want to highlight other parts.
The Widowmaker/Tracer fall position works as a way of mirroring and bookending the fights. Both sequence have the other knocked aside by the primary actor in the cinematic, allowing an allusion that works in the context of the action. That pose isn't to highlight her assets (pun fully intended), but to show the character in a vulnerable position and robbed of the mobility both use to fight. The shots don't expose the character, they show the moment of vulnerability, and slow down the fights pacing. It shows the conflict coming to and end, and gives breathing space for the viewer to go "oh crap, this just escalated."
People may have complained about the initial Widowmaker pose (which I don't recall at all beyond people saying "we really need another sniper in a skintight suit?") but calling back not only builds consistency in the universe, but also acts as an easter egg during the sequence that spawns their rivalry. Also, reskinning basic humanoid skeletons are super easy when they share similar structure, so practicality and all that.

The victory pose is a different situation. It's a post-match pose, something that will be a frequently recurring sight. Those poses often serve to inject more of the characters personality into the game, especially in multiplayer environments (see Blops 3) where in-universe interactions are at a minimum. Now, regardless of whether or not the pose fits the character, it doesn't give any more insight into her than a back shot. It's the same complaint that Black Widow always as her ass on display in every Avengers poster - it's not that its counter to the character, just that the space could be better used.

And maybe, just maybe, Blizzard prefers to carefully portray their characters over catering to your dick?
 

CritialGaming

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F-I-D-O said:
And maybe, just maybe, Blizzard prefers to carefully portray their characters over catering to your dick?
*GASP* But my dick has the majority say in everything I buy! If they don't cater to it, then my wife surely would have too and lord knows that she doesn't wanna do that.

You're right though. The context of the film makes shot make sense and fit within the universe. However in game the victory pose is a simply thing to fix.

I ask you this, why not just have an option to disable other player's victory poses? If you don't want potentially see that, or any other poses, couldn't there be an option that just allows "default" poses at the end of matches? This will allow players who don't wanna see the pose, to not have to, while at the same time allowing players who like the pose to see all the poses they want.

Hell you could even have a simple check box in the options menu for specific heroes. So that you can see the poses of characters you want, and only default poses for the characters you don't.

Wouldn't that have been a fair compromise?
 

Erttheking

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Fdzzaigl said:
Girls (and men too) post the most sexy poses by their own volitation all day on facebook and other social media, yet when a game character does it, it suddenly isn't OK? Ridiculous, and this cosplay shows it all the more.

It's like we've reverted back in time to the 50's or something.
I didn't even have a problem with the pose, and I still look forward to the day when we can actually criticize gaming's infantile use of sex and sexualization without being accused of being a prude or that we're in the 50s.

I'm freaking tired of it.
 

DoPo

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runic knight said:
What do you recommend as an alternative to assuming
Checking the actual facts. Given that it literally takes less than five minutes, it's not unreasonable.

runic knight said:
and what about my assumptions were incorrect?
runic knight said:
something akin to a trained knee-jerk response to someone criticizing it for being sexual/making them uncomfortable.
Kind sorta what your entire thing is based upon.

Or at least so I assume - I didn't really read the entirety of your post after that.
 

Silvanus

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Fdzzaigl said:
Girls (and men too) post the most sexy poses by their own volitation all day on facebook and other social media, yet when a game character does it, it suddenly isn't OK?
I think the pose was fine, but... why would we want our game characters acting like the dweebs we see on Facebook and other social media?
 

Silvanus

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Corey Schaff said:
#DuckLipsGate2016
Now there's something I would wholeheartedly support removing from a game!

...And from everywhere else.
 

F-I-D-O

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Feb 18, 2010
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CritialGaming said:
I ask you this, why not just have an option to disable other player's victory poses? If you don't want potentially see that, or any other poses, couldn't there be an option that just allows "default" poses at the end of matches? This will allow players who don't wanna see the pose, to not have to, while at the same time allowing players who like the pose to see all the poses they want.

Hell you could even have a simple check box in the options menu for specific heroes. So that you can see the poses of characters you want, and only default poses for the characters you don't.

Wouldn't that have been a fair compromise?
That gets into the more fun situation of why people buy and get invested in cosmetic items, and the player psychology surrounding that.
People get items usually because they want to show off. Some people just want to see a character look a certain way, but there's a reason not everyone mods LoL to get all the skins - buying something in an aesthetically locked down environment creates a status symbol.
By allowing other players to limit their viewing of said objects, people feel their individual purchase is worth less, and are less likely to spend money in the system, since they can't show it off. On top of that, consistent exposure to skins and unlockables makes people want to have them to be on an even playing field, even if there's no gameplay advantage. Limiting exposure in that way means players care less about skins, and are less likely to get invested in whatever unlock or microtransaction system is implemented to keep players on the hook. Less invested players means a player base more willing to move on.
The recent DooM beta showing character customization and ridiculous emotes shows the opposite - it's a big, over the top gory shooter punctuated by bright armor and dancing. People are annoyed that "it's too cartoony" (I love being able to make it rain over a gibbed pink man), but the display makes people want to see what unlock comes next.

On top of that, the narrative and character designers would probably get all pissy, because they only get three real ways to implement characterization in a multiplayer match. 1) The character's skin, which at this point is almost worthless when put alongside how LoL/Dota and others use it as a way to have cool designs. 2) The character's vocals, which have to work around existing reloading/firing/taking damage barks and are contextual at best. 3)End game poses as a way of reinforcing personalities.

By limiting poses, both the business and narrative can take long term hits. While Blizzard probably wouldn't care about some lost skin sales, losing any way to convey character information is a blow in gaming. Granted, that could be argued that you make a "good enough" generic pose, but at this point Blizzard would likely face a larger controversy with this catch-all addition, as shown with difficulty options in recent Mario games and the Star Fox reveal.
Personally, I find the checkbox would be a fine solution, and one that honestly hadn't come to my mind.
Effectively, they've created a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I'm just sad that the conversation on what a pose means for a character is overshadowed by whether devs can change their game, and for what reasons.
 

CritialGaming

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F-I-D-O said:
That gets into the more fun situation of why people buy and get invested in cosmetic items, and the player psychology surrounding that.
People get items usually because they want to show off. Some people just want to see a character look a certain way, but there's a reason not everyone mods LoL to get all the skins - buying something in an aesthetically locked down environment creates a status symbol.
By allowing other players to limit their viewing of said objects, people feel their individual purchase is worth less, and are less likely to spend money in the system, since they can't show it off. On top of that, consistent exposure to skins and unlockables makes people want to have them to be on an even playing field, even if there's no gameplay advantage. Limiting exposure in that way means players care less about skins, and are less likely to get invested in whatever unlock or microtransaction system is implemented to keep players on the hook. Less invested players means a player base more willing to move on.
The recent DooM beta showing character customization and ridiculous emotes shows the opposite - it's a big, over the top gory shooter punctuated by bright armor and dancing. People are annoyed that "it's too cartoony" (I love being able to make it rain over a gibbed pink man), but the display makes people want to see what unlock comes next.
Except the problem with that is that this isn't LoL, where skins are bought with real money. All the unlocks in Overwatch are earned through gameplay, and it isn't even skill based gameplay. You gain exp towards boxes, which contain the poses and skins, win or lose. Plus there is a heavy luck component to it as well. There is nothing but a time investment. Therefore no revenue is lost because the "temptation" to buy skins and poses is not there. So by having a disable option for poses and skins, the player is just opting out of seeing material that they do not deem appropriate for them or their family. Nothing is lost to the player, blizzard, or other players who like to use and view skins/poses.
 

runic knight

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DoPo said:
runic knight said:
What do you recommend as an alternative to assuming
Checking the actual facts. Given that it literally takes less than five minutes, it's not unreasonable.

runic knight said:
and what about my assumptions were incorrect?
runic knight said:
something akin to a trained knee-jerk response to someone criticizing it for being sexual/making them uncomfortable.
Kind sorta what your entire thing is based upon.

Or at least so I assume - I didn't really read the entirety of your post after that.
And that lead me to a lot of assumptions and a rather corporate-sounding reply by Blizzard, so we go back to the start here. What about my assumption was wrong? So far all I have gotten was "it is wrong, and I didn't bother to read anything else in your post" from two people now, but that doesn't exactly add anything of value to the conversation, does it? So if what you have a problem with is my general opinion that the response was akin to a knee-jerk response (that particular part being more an opinion about the response itself anyways), please provide something with a little more value then "you are wrong".
 

kris40k

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F-I-D-O said:
The victory pose is a different situation. It's a post-match pose, something that will be a frequently recurring sight.
Correction, it is an optional pose that never has to be seen if the player doesn't want it.