Tragedies for Children.

[fulano]

I'll try to make it brief so I don't bore most of you.

I was wondering how come the big majority of the stories children are told these days are either upbeat or overtly optimistic in tone. Whether they are for didactic or entertaining purposes their presence is so pervasive(and I'm sure most of us remember some, if not many, of them) that it got me thinking.

Doesn't that, in the end, accustom kids in general to a limited world view?

In the changing landscape of modern times, shouldn't children be allowed to stay as such but with a heightened sense of the world via more varied, more mature kind of stories? Something where the hero/ine loses, or doesn't get the girl/guy, or he/she gets the big win but loses on a personal level, etc.

I for one am all for allowing children a view to the cruder aspects of modern society via stories, problem is that there isn't many of those.

Note: I don't advocate that we stop telling the kind of stories that we tell already, only that we allow for more variety so we can discuss openly matters that are not usually discussed as of today.

 

[BonsaiK]

"Tragedies" for children have existed for a very long time.

Some of Dr. Seuss' books, such as "The Lorax" spring to mind as "tragedy" for kids.

There are also quite a few new kids books like this that exist today, you'd be suprised. I get to read a lot of my nephews' books, some of them are suprisingly dark.

Also a lot of the old fairytales and nursery rhymes are of course tragedies... Little Red Riding Hood doesn't end on a high note, nor does Three Little Pigs... "Ring A Rosie" was about the Black Plague, etc... it's a misconception that all kids' stories are "happy" Disney style stuff, this has never been the case.

 

[Lusperus]

Like the original little mermaid ursula wis and ariel turns into seafoam( or jetsam or something).

 

[pantsoffdanceoff]

Wow, do you honestly think people these days are not neutral enough to violence already? Or just overly pessimistic in general? They're children let them be happy.

 

[Jonxxx]

See kids realize that the "Real world" isn't how it is in the stories. They do this on their through experience, which is more than a story can teach them. There is no reason to tell a story where the Villain wins, because then the kid might think that being the "Bad Guys" are better because they win more.

If you're trying to rob children of happy memories from childhood, of fairytales and such with happy endings and a good lesson, don't.

People have plenty of time to mature and get a more "Realistic" view on the world. Children shouldn't grow up too fast, they should be able to enjoy the stories they hear, and not worry about if the villain or hero is going to win/lose.

this is of course my own personal opinion. Nice topic though, i think its going to create some interesting discussion.

 

[HT_Black]

In the original Goldilocks & the Three Bears, Goldilocks was an elderly hag whom the bears kill by impaling on the point of a church steeple's spire...just thought I'd put that out there and whatnot.

 

[Embright]

You make an interesting point. To reminisce I, and perhaps you as well, remember older cartoons and one in particular where these two children don't have enough to eat so their mother cries. They in turn act like they do so she would stop crying. The brother and sister go to sleep and basically dream about being in a land made out of ice cream and chocolate and all sorts of foods. They wake up and find that the townsmen, a butcher and a baker I believe, came to their house and brought quite a bit of food.

These old stories instilled hope in a generation which needed it, and for me helped me realize how great I had it.

Yet today there is a strange sense of pampering to children to a degree which in my opinion inhibits their view of reality. It's always a "everyone is a winner" motto and other child rearing techniques like "spare the rod, spoil the child" are looked down upon.

While I think those things should be taken in moderation, I do believe children are more intelligent than they are give credit for and should learn the hard lessons in life at least by proxy.

 

[fulano]

"Tragedies" for children have existed for a very long time.

Some of Dr. Seuss' books, such as "The Lorax" spring to mind as "tragedy" for kids.

There are also quite a few new kids books like this that exist today, you'd be suprised. I get to read a lot of my nephews' books, some of them are suprisingly dark.

Also a lot of the old fairytales and nursery rhymes are of course tragedies... Little Red Riding Hood doesn't end on a high note, nor does Three Little Pigs... "Ring A Rosie" was about the Black Plague, etc... it's a misconception that all kids' stories are "happy" Disney style stuff, this has never been the case.

I know many of the stories you mention are indeed "tragedies" or have tragical, dark elements on them, originally, but as time has gone forward they have been diluted and replaced with happier versions of themselves.

As for Dr. Seuss, I have to admit to never having read those as a kid and when an adult I didn't care much for those(I'm from Mexico so I don't really know much about them as they are not that widespread over here) but thanks for pointing that out.

Wow, do you honestly think people these days are not neutral enough to violence already? Or just overly pessimistic in general? They're children let them be happy.

And I'm all for letting hem be children, but I'm more comfortable if there is some kind of direction in the information they are interpreting other than it being a byproduct of their environment, maybe that way they can get something a little more useful out of it.

See kids realize that the "Real world" isn't how it is in the stories. They do this on their through experience, which is more than a story can teach them. There is no reason to tell a story where the Villain wins, because then the kid might think that being the "Bad Guys" are better because they win more.

If you're trying to rob children of happy memories from childhood, of fairytales and such with happy endings and a good lesson, don't.

People have plenty of time to mature and get a more "Realistic" view on the world. Children shouldn't grow up too fast, they should be able to enjoy the stories they hear, and not worry about if the villain or hero is going to win/lose.

this is of course my own personal opinion. Nice topic though, i think its going to create some interesting discussion.

I'm not really trying to rob anyobody of anything but rather for kids to experience a little more variety, and I'm sure they know the difference between what's real and a story, but what they they don't have lately is a way to relate in an emotional level to the tragedies they know happen in the real world, or there are very few, and even fewer that consider the modern world they live in.

I think good things can come off of tragic stories if discussed, don't you? It's not like we'd take a kid to watch Irreversible and then send him back to sleep hoping she/he learned something about rape.

 

[BonsaiK]

"Tragedies" for children have existed for a very long time.

Some of Dr. Seuss' books, such as "The Lorax" spring to mind as "tragedy" for kids.

There are also quite a few new kids books like this that exist today, you'd be suprised. I get to read a lot of my nephews' books, some of them are suprisingly dark.

Also a lot of the old fairytales and nursery rhymes are of course tragedies... Little Red Riding Hood doesn't end on a high note, nor does Three Little Pigs... "Ring A Rosie" was about the Black Plague, etc... it's a misconception that all kids' stories are "happy" Disney style stuff, this has never been the case.

I know many of the stories you mention are indeed "tragedies" or have tragical, dark elements on them, originally, but as time has gone forward they have been diluted and replaced with happier versions of themselves.

As for Dr. Seuss, I have to admit to never having read those as a kid and when an adult I didn't care much for those(I'm from Mexico so I don't really know much about them as they are not that widespread over here) but thanks for pointing that out.

I'm from Australia and Dr. Seuss is like a religion for kids down here. All kids LOVE Dr. Seuss. Most of his stories are actually morality tales of some sort, similar to Aesop's Fables. "The Lorax" is about the environment, "The Sneetches" is about racism, "The Zax" is about stubbornness etc... but it's all done in a resolutely cool way that kids totally get into.

Things like the original Grimm's fairytales are still readily available and still as dark as ever. Yes there are watered down versions for people who want to attempt to raise their childen in some kind of fuzzy nonsense happy land where nothing bad ever happens, but even a happy story has dark moments.

I once had a kid's book (wish I could remember the name) that was so dark it was practically in David Lynch territory. Very recent book, too. I wish I could remember the name of it, it was awesome.

Anyway my point is, I don't think all or even most kids stuff these days is "happy" by any stretch. There is a lot more variety out there than you as an adult might be getting exposed to. Maygbe it's also got a bit to do with where you live, but I've never had even the sllightest problem getting hold of "dark" kids stories.

 

[Jonxxx]

I think good things can come off of tragic stories if discussed, don't you? It's not like we'd take a kid to watch Irreversible and then send him back to sleep hoping she/he learned something about rape.

if discussed

Now im pretty sure a 5 year old kid (thats my assumed age range for "Stories" correct me if i misunderstood the age you meant by children)isnt going to be excited about having an intellectual discussion about why the hero died even though he was trying to do the right thing. I remember 9 years ago at that age I didn't want to hear about the Knight ends up dieing instead of slaying the dragon, i wanted to hear about he slayed the dragon and rescued the princess.

This is mainly because, "If someone as awesome as a Knight in armor can't win, then why should i even try to do the right thing?" I would of been discouraged, thinking that my attempts at doing the righteous thing would fail, just like the Knights attempt.
I think trying to discuss "losing" stories would be hard, because at that age you would be confused as to why the hero wins sometimes and the villain does other times. As a 5-year-old i saw the world in black/white good/bad.

I dont think 5 year olds should be learning about rape/murder/suicide/other "adult themed bad things". But that's just me

 

[fulano]

"Tragedies" for children have existed for a very long time.

Some of Dr. Seuss' books, such as "The Lorax" spring to mind as "tragedy" for kids.

There are also quite a few new kids books like this that exist today, you'd be suprised. I get to read a lot of my nephews' books, some of them are suprisingly dark.

Also a lot of the old fairytales and nursery rhymes are of course tragedies... Little Red Riding Hood doesn't end on a high note, nor does Three Little Pigs... "Ring A Rosie" was about the Black Plague, etc... it's a misconception that all kids' stories are "happy" Disney style stuff, this has never been the case.

I know many of the stories you mention are indeed "tragedies" or have tragical, dark elements on them, originally, but as time has gone forward they have been diluted and replaced with happier versions of themselves.

As for Dr. Seuss, I have to admit to never having read those as a kid and when an adult I didn't care much for those(I'm from Mexico so I don't really know much about them as they are not that widespread over here) but thanks for pointing that out.

I'm from Australia and Dr. Seuss is like a religion for kids down here. All kids LOVE Dr. Seuss. Most of his stories are actually morality tales of some sort, similar to Aesop's Fables. "The Lorax" is about the environment, "The Sneetches" is about racism, "The Zax" is about stubbornness etc... but it's all done in a resolutely cool way that kids totally get into.

Things like the original Grimm's fairytales are still readily available and still as dark as ever. Yes there are watered down versions for people who want to attempt to raise their childen in some kind of fuzzy nonsense happy land where nothing bad ever happens, but even a happy story has dark moments.

I once had a kid's book (wish I could remember the name) that was so dark it was practically in David Lynch territory. Very recent book, too. I wish I could remember the name of it, it was awesome.

Anyway my point is, I don't think all or even most kids stuff these days is "happy" by any stretch. There is a lot more variety out there than you as an adult might be getting exposed to. Maygbe it's also got a bit to do with where you live, but I've never had even the sllightest problem getting hold of "dark" kids stories.

I'm inclined to agree with you with the fact that there is indeed more variety for that kind of thing than back in the day(gosh...I feel old), but I don't think that it even matches to popular stuff that is out there like most of what Disney, Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, and other corporations put out on a readily digestable basis...with the exception of that damned Harry Potter...

I do remember being read by my dad Aesop's fables as a kid and being just amazed at some things(a cat that turned into a woman that ended up eating a mouse in front of her owner who was intent on marrying her) and I remember I had to work to make sense of some things(in my defense, I was really small). Now kids are lambasted left and right by the media machine and leaves almost no space in their attention span for something else like actually going out there and looking for stuff, or listening to their parents about some stuff they think they may not enjoy(man, I'm old!).

 

[ExodusinFlames]

I'll try to make it brief so I don't bore most of you.

I was wondering how come the big majority of the stories children are told these days are either upbeat or overtly optimistic in tone. Whether they are for didactic or entertaining purposes their presence is so pervasive(and I'm sure most of us remember some, if not many, of them) that it got me thinking.

Doesn't that, in the end, accustom kids in general to a limited world view?

In the changing landscape of modern times, shouldn't children be allowed to stay as such but with a heightened sense of the world via more varied, more mature kind of stories? Something where the hero/ine loses, or doesn't get the girl/guy, or he/she gets the big win but loses on a personal level, etc.

I for one am all for allowing children a view to the cruder aspects of modern society via stories, problem is that there isn't many of those.

Note: I don't advocate that we stop telling the kind of stories that we tell already, only that we allow for more variety so we can discuss openly matters that are not usually discussed as of today.

In alot of cases, fairy tales for children (Hans Christien Anderson and the Brothers Grimm, for example) often dealt with much more harsh lessons for a very long time. Children were eventually overly sheltered by their parents. This was about the same time that electrical outlets had plastic covers and cupboards everywhere had safety locks. Oh the dark and twisted medeival days prior to that.

 

[ExodusinFlames]

I once had a kid's book (wish I could remember the name) that was so dark it was practically in David Lynch territory. Very recent book, too. I wish I could remember the name of it, it was awesome.

Edward Gorey, perhaps?

 

[Keswick Gallagher]

let's make 5 year olds play the path

 

[Sevre]

I blame the goddamn Disney channel, if you watched more Spongebob you'll turn out just fine guys.

 

[BonsaiK]

I once had a kid's book (wish I could remember the name) that was so dark it was practically in David Lynch territory. Very recent book, too. I wish I could remember the name of it, it was awesome.

Edward Gorey, perhaps?

No, it wasn't a "gory" story...