Trailers: Deus Ex: Sarif Industries Testimonials
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Am I the only one who remembers an e-mail in the original Deus Ex where Gunther says something about being an old gray golem, used mostly for scaring children? He sounded like he was lamenting the obviousness of his augmentations...solidstatemind said:
they can allready do anything ... once we understand geneticsReiverCorrupter said:
TRANSLATION TIME they CANT allready do anything.
we do have bilogical limb replacement but it involves cutting it off a corpse first. however robotic limb replacement is allready working and making all kinds of advances. pretty sure it will be a true viable limb replacement even for arms and eyes long before we work out how genetics work. as things stand we can barely put a single gene into a human without risk of death.
Actually, yeah, I had forgotten that. But still, you could say that he was lamenting that all he's good for now is scaring children (ie.- augmentations have become so widespread that they're no longer frightening to regular adults). And we're talking about a retcon here, so they're going to be doing some gymnastics with the facts from the previous games anyway; probably the more salient question is how to minimize the amount of contortion necessary.McFlabbergasty said:
Don't get me wrong, we should be really careful with genetics, but it's all a matter of scale and efficiency. In order to have truly efficient replacements we're eventually going to have to scale down to cell sized mechanisms. Hydrolic robotic limb replacement is just absurdly inefficient and awkward, and it won't scale down much more without microrobotics. Just the simple fact that you would have to build an artificial cell made of silicon molecule by molecule means that we aren't going to have it until quite a long time from now. My physicist friend says it's basically impossible. So yes, we will have incredibly bulky, awkward and energy inefficient robot limb replacement before biological replacement, but nothing like the stuff they have in Deus Ex. Sorry. It'll be another 50 years or so before we start seeing really cool stuff and it'll be biological.ryo02 said:
Oh, and when I said that "they can already do anything" I was talking about the physical potential of cells, not our scientific ability.
Yeah. But you need suspension of disbelief for any fiction. I just feel the need to correct people who see fun sci fi stuff as an accurate depiction of the future.Tin Man said:
hydrolics? I never said anything about hydrolics neither did the trailer so youve never heard of artificial muscle?. just type it into youtube watch a few vids theres more than one line of researh in that area. some using compressed air and others using material that contracts when electricity is applied.ReiverCorrupter said:
besides even hydrolics can scale down pretty far and be very fluid.
no artifical cells needed at any point.
50 years? (I can post links right?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqmRKqFqiok&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtrh9ZOasq4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fls1nE_yzE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0_mLumx-6Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJg9igTnjIo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ju4upwhdvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu6APoC0IOA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_151R2i0G4&feature=related
Meh. And how much energy do those things take up? Don't get me wrong, you could have large mechs and stuff as long as you have a great power source, but if I were a soldier I would rather not have to fill my batteries every 30 minutes. I'm sure progress will be made but it would never match up to the things you can do with genetic modification.ryo02 said:
You might say, "hey steel and titanium are really freaking strong so they'll always be better than anything we could do with biology." False. Spider silk is as strong as steel with about a fifth of the density. The future is synthetic materials, and one of the most efficient ways for us to produce the synthetic materials is through biological modification. Not to mention that a biological limb replacement will be able to repair itself spontaneously.
I'm not saying we won't have robotics. I'm saying that robotics will eventually hit a wall and biological engineering will take its place. Unless we find a way to create artificial microrobotics efficiently.
artificial limbs get less power hungry everyday batteries are getting smaller and more powerfull all the time so are fuel cells so thats not going to be a problem for long.ReiverCorrupter said:
and again the trailer showed civilian use not military I never mentioned it either -_-
and even if I did just look up the research into military Powered exoskeletons (similar line of research for artificial limbs).
such as the XOS 2 they even talk about the power issues in this vid (and even a time frame for when they will see actual use in the field)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UpxsrlLbpU
Tethered versions in 5 years. Meh. Still very bulky and impractical. The other problem you have to consider is that the more efficient you try to get it, the smaller the parts are going to have to be, and the harder it's going to be to manufacture them. Like I said before, sure, they'll have decent robotics, but they just won't be able to compete with the stuff we can ultimately do with biological engineering and microrobotics if we find a way to do it.ryo02 said:
ahem tethered in 3 to 5 years (not 5 its 3 to 5)and untethered in another 3 to 5 actuallyReiverCorrupter said:
second this is designed to load munitions and carry hundreds of pounds in back packs I doubt a civilian limb will need that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQYCQgh_37A this has some different footage
lasty IT A PROTOYPE fairly sure its going to improve
may aswell throw this in aswell heh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hLiQQaUnGM&feature=relmfu
I'm aware of all these things. They really aren't even impressive compared to the stuff DARPA has done with mental control over robotics and brain-machine interface. There's also the quadropedic robot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Wwryo02 said:
Not to mention weaponized robots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPcdKmBZgpU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KcU0It2wZI&feature=related
But all of this is beside my point that eventually macro/human scale robotics will be replaced by micro scale bioengineering and robotics. That is my point. You can keep sharing cool videos if you like (I certainly enjoy them), but I don't see their relevance.
Oh, yeah. I like cybernetics. I think robots are cool too. The point I'm trying to get across is that when we start seeing really cool stuff, the distinction between artificial material and biological material will be almost completely blurred. The stuff going on at the microscopic level will be what matters and we could make it appear any way we want, so the really advanced 'cyborgs' could just look human. Ultimately the technologies will mutually reinforce one another until they merge completely. All I'm saying is that to get the kind of high functionality, dexterity, speed, responsiveness, miniaturization and energy efficiency in the Deus Ex stuff, we might need to do it through microrobotics, at which point they might only look like that if you deliberately wanted them to, and it might even cost extra.ryo02 said:
I'm a bit wary of hooking our minds up to the internet though, all sorts of bad things could happen. That's something we need to be really careful with. An artificial arm doesn't make you Borg. Belonging to the hive-mind does.
we can speculate on that till the cows come home but it wont get us anywhere nobody is really sure where any of this going and what limits there are and what is practical or what we will learn to do the fasted.ReiverCorrupter said:
my bets on cybernetics yours is on bioengineering lets call it even hell we should be glad theres more than one way to figure this all out in the end it makes it all the more likely.
but ya no hooking up to the internet Ive seen brain hacking in "ghost in the shell" its bad news
so erm ... can we call a ceasefire?
Sure. It's ultimately an empirical question anyway. You'd have to ask an engineer about efficiency and how things scale down to really settle it. I'm just calling it the way I see it happening.ryo02 said:
I agree on the internet thing. "Ghost in the Shell" is pretty freaking scary. They'd have to put in a whole shit-ton of physical safe-guards before I'd even consider it.
Did you actually play the game? A big part of it was that people like Gunther Herrman and Anna Nevare were becoming obsolete. When augmentations first came out, they sacrificed their personal appearances for permanent physical improvements. Now, (at the time of Deus Ex) several years later, nano-augmentations are replacing the older, more steampunk-y ones.poiumty said: