Transgender question

[RubyT]

I think it gets sticky when you start defining men and women solely by their sex organs. What about women born without ovaries? What about men born without testicles? What about people born with both sets of organs? And defining people by chromosomal arangement isn't any better, as there are quite a number of possibilities aside from XX and XY.

Yes.

But how do we define male and female otherwise?

How did MarsAtlas know she was a female?

And what does she understand by that?

What if someone was born with a male body, raised male and lived male - then goes trans woman, but doesn't change the name (say it was neutral like Leslie in the first place), appearance, demeanor .... what is the essence of being female?

 

[Beliyal]

But how do we define male and female otherwise?

How did MarsAtlas know she was a female?

And what does she understand by that?

What if someone was born with a male body, raised male and lived male - then goes trans woman, but doesn't change the name (say it was neutral like Leslie in the first place), appearance, demeanor .... what is the essence of being female?

It's difficult to say really. What I find interesting is that we only ever pose this question to trans people.

For example, I am a cis woman. I was born as a woman and I identify as a woman. However, I don't do most of the traditional "female" stuff. I don't wear typical female clothes at least 90% of the time, I have interests that are traditionally seen as "male" (video games, technology, science, martial arts, weapons) and I hang around mostly with men. I'm a tomboy basically. I still identify as a woman though. And no one ever asked me why do I think I'm a woman or implied that I may not be a real woman. Of course, I was a bit of an outcast for being different than other girls, but no one ever questioned my gender.

How do I know that I'm a woman? Aside from having been born with a female reproductive system. Is that the only way to define gender? I can behave in any way I want, but as long as I have female genitalia, no one can question my female cred? What about trans women who fully transitioned and have female genitalia? Are they still not a woman enough because they don't possess a womb? But what if I were to get a surgery for some medical reason and have my womb removed? Do I, in that moment, stop being a woman?

There are a lot of questions here. I fully believe that the presence of genitalia and reproductive organs do not, in fact, make our gender. The same can be asked of men who were castrated or even had their penises removed in an accident for example. Are they no longer male? It appears, gender is really in our heads, as far as I understand.

 

[RubyT]

What I find interesting is that we only ever pose this question to trans people.

Cisgendered people likely never ponder these things - they don't have to.

It appears, gender is really in our heads

This much seems certain.

But what exactly is gender?

What does it mean to be of female gender? I think we can agree it's not wearing dresses or playing with dolls. It's not having a uterus or being into men.

So what is it?

 

[norashepard]

Literally, you don't "want" anything when you're trans. You just ARE. Like, I am a trans woman, but I don't conform to many of the typical feminine things, save for my long hair and appreciation of romance novels. What's more important is that you feel a certain way. It's hard to explain to someone who doesn't feel it, but it's like this: I read a lot. I play a lot of games. I watch a ton of movies. These things I read/play/watch have a wide variety of protagonists, and in some ways I can relate to all of them. For example, in Breaking Bad, I can understand Jesse's POV and root for him to have a good life. But I can only truly identify with the female characters. I may like Jesse and empathize, especially because I've lived a similar life to him, but I don't feel like him at all. When Skylar is on the screen though, I finally feel like I'm watching myself. Even if I've never been in a horrible abusive marriage, or had a kid, or whatever, I still feel more like her than I do Jesse.

Same concept in games where you can be a man or a woman. When I play them, I can enjoy the male story, but it never enters my mind as a story I should be learning from, the man is never a true role model. But playing as a woman, that is a very active part of the experience. Look as far as Mass Effect: playing with a dude Shepard, I felt he was a boring character with little to offer me, but when I switched to a lady, it almost instantly became one of my favorite games.

I know that's hard to wrap your mind around sometimes, but it's just how it is. Imagine if in school you were forced to always sit with the people who were the binary gender opposite you. You wouldn't be comfortable. If you were straight, you may have a slight fun time flirting or looking at butts or whatever, but you wouldn't feel like it's your place. But then imagine you're switched back to the group you do feel a part of. You're going to be that much more comfortable and you're going to be around people that you inherently feel are like you. That's how gender works, as far as I can tell. As much as we want to pretend like its a part of each person individually, I think it had a lot to do with how we interact with the group.

Hope that makes some kind of sense!

 

[Kanova]

So basically, mind is all messed up and not working properly and not meshing with their physical body, so they try to change their outside to match their inside. Okay.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

I don't like that comic at all, calling someone transphobic because they aren't familiar with the technically correct way to say things is too much.

Says "transphobic language", not "transphobe", an important distinction.

Transphobics are people who want to oppress and hurt transsexuals, not some guy who got the words sex and gender confused but didn't have any malicious intent.

There is a word for this purpose, "cissexism", but whenever I break it out people starting raving about tumblr even though its a fairly easy-to-understand concept.

See to me, when I hear the words transphobic language, Id be more inclined to think of slurs, like when you hear people say stuff thats homophobic, but theres still a nasty intent behind those words, not a lack of understanding. Though I do feel like my argument is kinda falling apart here to be honest.

 

[Lilani]

Why are you transgender, or why do you want to switch gender?

I am not transgender, however I've known a couple of people who are, and based on my experiences with them I don't believe this is the right question to ask. I say that because a transgendered person does not want to "switch" their gender. They know exactly what gender they are, just as much as you know exactly what gender you are. In their case, that gender just so happens to not match their exterior equipment. Children have a concept of "boys" and "girls" and which one they identify more with long before they are completely aware that girls and boys have different things "down there." Your gender identity doesn't just come from your genitals. If someone were to take your penis and swap it out with a vagina, that would not change the fact that you identify as male (or vice versa if you are female, I'm just guessing here).

The purpose behind sex reassignment surgery is to resolve the distress and discomfort that comes from having a body which does not match their gender identity. Even though your gender identity would not change if your genitals would be swapped, I imagine it would still cause a good deal of stress and bother to have an exterior which does not match who you feel you are. This is why transgendered people, especially youth, have such a high suicide rate compared to cisgendered people. If they don't have a good support system and don't get the proper treatment and therapy to resolve this incongruity, the distress can become depression and be overwhelming.

Also, as I believe others have begun to explain to you, gender is also more of a spectrum than a binary switch. Of the two transgendered people I've known, one was MUUUUUUUUCH more effeminate than me in just about every way (I am a female, btw), and the other was about as effeminate as me in behavior but in appearance definitely favored the butch/tomboy style. Though how effeminate a person is still has very little to do with what gender they identify with, or what sexuality they are.

 

[CrystalShadow]

OH! I saw the title and thought this would be a like a hypothetical question inside a rhetorical question's body!

To the question, it honestly baffles me. I'm not against transgenders by any means, I'm just utterly at a loss for why they'd rather change their body than their minds. I know that sounds harsh, but what is therapy if not changing your mind? I mean when an other-kin approaches a doctor and asks to be turned into a lama, why is that considered so crazy? Or what if a man was dead convinced he was Napoleon and cried discrimination when the French don't let him lead their armies?

Are you aware that there is a fine line between the reasoning your using, and justifying what basically amounts to brainwashing?
Changing your mind when you're talking about something that is at the very core of your identity as a person is a pretty messed up thing to take as a default assumption.
Besides, if you have studied the history of this subject any, you'd know that all attempts at 'changing the mind' of transgender people have been horrific failures.
For that matter, some rather messed up research which was done by John Money on one of a pair of twin boys (David Reimer) in the 1960's...
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer )
Showed pretty conclusively that the core of gender identity isn't learnt, and isn't malleable. This research was supposed to show that it was something malleable, that could be changed, or altered, and depended on how you raised a child.
Instead, it proved quite the opposite.

So, if you can't forcibly turn a male child into a girl at birth without huge negative consequences on their life, why the assumption that you can make a transgender person comfortable with their birth sex?

Have you heard of 'gay cure' therapies? These basically amount to an intense session of psychological abuse and trauma, and if you ask the people 'cured' this way if it worked, they'd say yes... For a while. But it doesn't stick. And causes immense harm.
And really, that is the kind of territory you're straying into when you suggest something like that.

If you successfully brainwash someone, and after doing so, they say they're happy you did so, does that make it alright?
But that's even assuming you can succeed at it in the first place...

I just feel there needs to be more oversight on who can get the surgeries and what their mental state is.

What? And you think there isn't!?
You need referrals from 2 psychologists, and you also need someone else to rule out any potential mental health issues that may be confusing matters.
Then you are typically expected to live full time in your new role for at least 6 months, but usually more like 2 years before they'll even consider surgery.
(And they often make you wait at least 6 months just for hormones too).
The surgeon has to agree, the psychologists who wrote the referrals had to agree...

There's plenty of oversight. Why do people have this idea that you can just have surgery on a whim? It's nonsense.

SNIP

Okay, I think I understand. But from my understanding, your sex is the biological way you were born(male/female) and gender is your social perception(masculine/feminine). Assuming that's the correct terminology, your biological sex can't be changed, correct? We can't implant ovaries or testicles that would allow for the production of eggs/sperm, respectively. So if a person says they are female when they are provably male(as in DNA), why are they not just...wrong? As in they hold an incorrect opinion?

On the same note, as male/female has no real bearing on masculine or feminine, why do we use the phrase transgender? If someone says they're feminine....then okay, right? We can have feminine males and masculine females and any mix thereof. If the gender is how you identify personally, where does the trans part come in? Surely they're just gender...aware, for lack of a better term.

And I don't think we can use the term transsexual, as we can't really change that. Someone who had the operation wouldn't be trans anything, as they'd just be I dunno, a more masculine female. Not a male, but a more masculine female. They haven't really transcended their sex, correct? They've simply had a cosmetic surgery to comport their physical appearance with their gender. They're male/female DNA is still fully intact.

And while we're at it, see, your definition of sex seems dubious as well as far as I can see.
What's with the reductionist idea of trying to define something by one trait. one specific thing that either makes you one thing or another.

It just doesn't make sense. Besides which, it sets a set of moving goalposts in place that you can never meet.
Technology changes all the time. We are within a few decades of womb transplants, custom grown organs, the ability to create sperm and eggs from other sources (or turn one into the other)
Things could change a lot within the next 20-30 years alone.

Think about it though. What does it matter when people have such simplistic definitions, and use them not as functional descriptions, but merely as a means to exclude certain people from them?

Let's look at this example progression for instance:
- I feel like I'm a woman. (You're not. You have a male body)
- I have breasts, and my hormones have been changed (doesn't matter. You still have penis.)
- I have a vagina now (it's not real, just a surgically altered penis)
- My vagina was grown from a tissue culture, and it's just like any other (Whatever. It's still fake, and you don't have a womb)
- I had a womb transplant too (well, you can't produce any eggs, so who cares?)
- I'm pregnant! (With someone else's womb, and someone else's eggs! That hardly counts)
- I've had some of my cells turned into eggs and the child has my dna from that egg (You're still not a woman, it's all fake, and you still have male DNA)
- They grew a fully functioning female reproductive system in a lab and implanted it in me (so? It's artificially made, and therefore fake, and still you have male DNA)
- My entire genetic code was rewritten to make me genetically identical to a female in every way (It still doesn't count, because it's artificial, and you weren't born that way, and...)

Anyway, perhaps that's taking things a little far, but can you see my point here? Every time something new has come along, someone, somewhere has insisted on finding some new 'one thing' that proves which sex you really are.

But it isn't one thing. Just like it isn't any one thing that makes someone a human being rather than a chimpanzee. It's a combination of factors.

And trying to condense all those factors down into one thing that can conclusively prove 'you are this' is basically an act of intellectual laziness. (or worse, depending on how and why you chose the particular simplification you did...)

Now, I'm sure you'll find some reason to say I'm wrong, or something, because that seems to be the nature of this subject...
Go right ahead. But maybe think carefully about why you believe the particular definitions you do, and what it is exactly that makes you so certain they are correct.

Biology is messy, ambiguous, and never deals in clear absolutes. Never trust anyone who tries to tell you otherwise.

 

[loa]

Your brain is who you are. Transgender people aren't "switching gender", they're switching presentation. Its ridiculous in the same vein as saying that somebody is "becoming gay" because they come out of the closet.

I'm short on time, so I'll leave this little comic strip here that does a lot to explain...

Spoiler

"Gender" is the presentation and gender fluid people do change gender depending how they feel.
Sometimes on a daily basis.
Also being trans does not mean sex change as the comic implies.
Gender is a societal construct, not the dangly bits.

 

[JustAnotherAardvark]

I've known a couple of people who are,

Um ... ok. Maybe.

Look, I think people make more of this than it merits. Really.

My friend and I both left the service, both nuke submariners, if you know what that means.

It was more a 'he got it sorted, and then he was a she, and she was the same person', if that makes any sense at all to you.

She wasn't broken before, she wasn't broken after, just happier....this is maybe '98-ish, before the buzzwords?

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

This is why we can't have nice things;

Action:

I don't understand transgender people, and I'd like their opinion on the scientific/existential condition of being trans.

Result:

Half the remarks being essentialist garbage because people lack two brain cells to rub together.

------------------

To answer the OP, being trans is not something you become but what you are in a sense that it is by which one finds self-authenticity beyond that which was artificially levelled upon them via the largely essentialist rhetoric that is still so pervasive. Many don't merely swap genders, but rather attempt to marry self-identity with visible identity. Given there is a vast philosophical sea between being transvestite and transgender. It's no different than any other form of expression.

You think something, and thus you may wish to say something. The difference is that this thought for many trans people has been apparent since their earliest memories. It's a form of expression. As valid as any given it is backed by the moral ideal of allowing self authenticity, the right to one's body and thoughts, and the right to expression and basic ideals of being the driver of one's own fate.

Being transgender is merely an act of one's self authentication and the right to the expression of self. The results are all too often life threatening if such expression and finding validity of body and mind being silenced and oppressed. In terms of basic medical practice to exist for the good of all people, transgender people deserve open access to internal and surgical medicine they may wish to seek. In terms of basic human rights and the basic pursuit of liberty, it is moral that transgender people should be allowed to exist and be allowed to exist as they wish.

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

Getting this out of the way in case anyone (probably not MarsAtlas, but most likely others in my experience) asks later, I am of the male sex (haven't checked DNA but...), I am non-dysphoric and I exhibit characteristics which people would describe as a mix of masculine and feminine.

(SNIP)

Hey MarsAtlas,

First off I'd like to thank you for being pretty chill. There are some angry people on the internet and I really appreciate how cool you're being with this. Also you mentioned the Boss who is my favourite character ever, which is also nice... man I love the Boss... but this is getting off point...

So like others, I find it interesting when you said "gender identity is its own thing that is separate from their self-expression of that gender identity" and that you're both MtF (I always thought that term is fine, let me know if that's offensive) and masculine as I had believed that the main reason people considered themselves transgender is because they the want to fulfil roles associated with the other sex and then decided that this must mean they should be, and therefore are, of the other gender. Now for you this isn't the case from what you've said, but I believe it is for many others (especially when you hear about non-dysphoric parents wanting to give their supposedly naturally dysphoric 6 year old child HRT) which is something I would be interested in hearing your opinion about.

But let's cut to what this is all really seems to be about...

Gender does exist, sexual dimorphism of the brain exists.

I read the articles you linked and I thought wow... there's actually some really interesting stuff here. I would be very interested to see in the future studies to find any causality between the brain properties and dysphoria (whether one causes the other) but the correlation itself is incredible to read about.

My issue with transgenderism has always been that I have never accepted the idea of genderism. That is to say I do not believe that anyone naturally develops, or has any belief in, gender identity but rather that gender identity is a socially-constructed (Note: This does not mean it cannot have physiological and mental effects) concept which people then ingrain in themselves. Studies may show that I am wrong.

I do not personally feel gender (male) and I have no idea why you feel female or what feeling female even means (I have heard someone explain that having male genitalia feels wrong which is something I can understand even though I can't relate, but feeling male or female I just don't understand). When I hear biological males saying they feel female, or vice-versa, it just grates on me because to me it just sounds sexist/restrictive/oppressive. As if we should believe that there is a way that all males should feel and a way all females should feel and that just seems wrong.

I look forward to a reply when you are less busy,
Best Wishes

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

(Snip)

(Snip)

I never understood why the definition of sex is considered to be so important by some people on these types of threads... Isn't it a bit off-topic?

Regardless, if you two do insist, to my knowledge sex in humans is usually considered as being meant to be defined in one of these two ways. (Maybe I will be more qualified to say in a years time after taking medical and developmental genetics papers, but until then this is my best effort.)

A.) Does the person have a Y-chromosome? If yes male, if no female. (Note: This can cause funky things if SRY gene is inserted/deleted/translocated or abnormal or if say the Anti-Mullerian hormone gene or some other genes are abnormal)

B.) Does the person have a functional copy of the SRY gene that was expressed during development? If yes male, if no female. (Note: Once again, this can cause funky things if SRY gene is inserted/deleted/translocated or abnormal or if say the Anti-Mullerian hormone gene or some other genes are abnormal)

Which of these two definitions is better or more correct I don't know, I think either are fine reasonable as long as you explain which one you choose to work with...

"But what about people who have Klinefelter syndrome what are they?" is no doubt what someone would then go onto say... well then scientifically their biological sex is male and they have Klinefelter syndrome. "Does that mean the should be allowed to enter the female Olympics events/toilets/scholarships/etc.?" Well, I guess you would have to ask the person making the rules for the Olympics events/toilets/scholarships/etc. The scientific community doesn't make the rules for Olympic events the IOC does.

I am also uncomfortable with people using the term sex to refer solely to genitalia, but unless either of you intend to explain how this topic relates to what this thread is meant to be about (which I believe is: non-dysphoric people trying to have a open discussion with dysporic people in order to gain insight), I believe this discussion should be kept out of this thread.

Best Wishes

 

[Signa]

OH! I saw the title and thought this would be a like a hypothetical question inside a rhetorical question's body!

To the question, it honestly baffles me. I'm not against transgenders by any means, I'm just utterly at a loss for why they'd rather change their body than their minds. I know that sounds harsh, but what is therapy if not changing your mind? I mean when an other-kin approaches a doctor and asks to be turned into a lama, why is that considered so crazy? Or what if a man was dead convinced he was Napoleon and cried discrimination when the French don't let him lead their armies?

for fucks sake can we not keep comparing otherkin to being transgender? its disrespectful and the existance of otherkin doesn't invalidate the identities of trans people

Well, for all outward appearances, how is it different? I mean, I'm actually asking. I'm not talking about that condition that you can have your chromosomes backwards, but what is the actual difference between one person believing they are a woman trapped in a man's body, and another person believing they are a wolf trapped in a man's body?

 

[Stg]

I think you'll find these resources helpful in your search of knowledge and understanding.

http://tranifesto.com/transgender-faqs-and-info/ten-things-not-to-say-to-a-trans-person/
http://tranifesto.com/transgender-faqs-and-info/trans-etiquette-for-non-trans-people/
http://www.glaad.org/transgender/allies

All that tells me is transgendered people are too afraid to answer questions from people who are legitimately interested. I'll never understand why someone feels you're not supposed to ask a certain type of question because if someone is trying better inform themselves of something they don't understand, that mentality should not be met with judgement nor should they be chastised for asking questions. It isn't every day you see someone who used to be a man or woman but are now the opposite sex.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Yes. And what follows appear to be useless buzzwords, arranged in a pleasing form.
Pack it up, sunshine, I've eaten weirder things than you, free, with Fruitloops (ah, fruitloops!)

Yes, because essentialism is a buzz word, not a defined philosophical concept with set definitions to its core tenets. Glad to see people proving my point.

 

[JustAnotherAardvark]

Glad to see people proving my point.

Which was ... what?