Transgenders, bathrooms, and gender segragation

[Lonewolfm16]

So, this is somewhat old news, but a transgender girl (born male) was allowed to use the girls restroom. For me this raises a lot of question on the matter. I know this is a emotionally sensitive issue, so I ask we all try to keep things civil.

At any rate, I will start with my views on transsexualism in general. I don't necessarily like the idea. It seems to me that it is somewhat trying to will reality into changing. I see no reason to differentiate between what you feel like you are, and what you biologically are, or words like man/boy and male. Perhaps this is because I tend to regard gender like race. It is a physical difference, manifesting in your genetics, and appearance, but it doesn't change who you are. I don't think people should have to feel like their race, actions don't have to be "white" or "black", and a black person who doesn't "act black" is still black. Gender, I see in a similar light. You don't have to feel or act masculine to be male. And a man wearing a dress is no less of a man. I find that branding behaviors masculine and feminine in general is foolish. Still, I recognize that gender dysphoria is a thing that happens, and if you want me to address you as female, then I will. Some people are simply happier identifying as the opposite gender. I have no problems with transsexuals, even if I find their choice odd.

But the idea of sharing bathrooms between transgender girls and cis girls strikes me as not being illogical. Its been said that gender is what is in your head, and biological sex is what is between your legs. Fine, I can agree to that. But the segregation of bathrooms and locker rooms was never about what is in your head, we don't put all the girls in the same bathroom because we think they will have more to talk about without guys there. What is between your legs is the entire reason we separate them. As a society, we decided that places where people got naked were probably best left to one gender or the other, out of a fear that getting naked before members of the opposite sex would be awkward, and somewhat scandalous. While gays through a bit of a wrench in the idea by being attracted to their same gender, the system generally worked. But if people who are, biologically, male can use the women's restroom without issue, why is there a women's restroom in the first place? If people aren't uncomfortable with transgender women, or lesbians, being in the same restroom why would they be uncomfortable about men using the same restroom, except to uphold tradition? So Escapists, I'm rather confused here. What do you think? Should transgender people use the restroom of the gender they were born as, or the one they identify with? Should we separate bathrooms based on gender at all?

 

[Aris Khandr]

What kind of bathrooms are you going to where you're getting naked in them? Granted, I avoid public bathrooms like the plague anyway, but I'm pretty sure I'd still remember that.

Now, barring some freaky public bathroom nudity thing that I have NEVER experienced, it is a bathroom. You go into your stall, do your business, wash up, and leave. The only time anyone is going to see anyone else is during the entry, washing, and leaving stages. Where, you know, your clothes are totally on. So if a transgirl hasn't had the operation to remove that yet, what does it matter? Why are we worried about this?

 

[Lonewolfm16]

What kind of bathrooms are you going to where you're getting naked in them? Granted, I avoid public bathrooms like the plague anyway, but I'm pretty sure I'd still remember that.

Now, barring some freaky public bathroom nudity thing that I have NEVER experienced, it is a bathroom. You go into your stall, do your business, wash up, and leave. The only time anyone is going to see anyone else is during the entry, washing, and leaving stages. Where, you know, your clothes are totally on. So if a transgirl hasn't had the operation to remove that yet, what does it matter? Why are we worried about this?

It doesn't concern me too much, I just wonder why we segregate bathrooms at all. Clearly it isn't a difference in genitalia, so why? It seems hypocritical and illogical.

 

[shrekfan246]

You don't have to feel or act masculine to be male. And a man wearing a dress is no less of a man. I find that branding behaviors masculine and feminine in general is foolish. Still, I recognize that gender dysphoria is a thing that happens, and if you want me to address you as female, then I will. Some people are simply happier identifying as the opposite gender. I have no problems with transsexuals, even if I find their choice odd.

Imagine being the exact same person you are today, but you've grown up as the opposite gender. I'm sure that'll be pretty hard to fathom, of course, because you would've had a different childhood and been treated differently by your parents and peers and teachers, but for the sake of argument imagine yourself, with all of your current personality traits, thought patterns, experiences, and everything, and transplant that into the opposite gender.

I can almost guarantee that your brain wouldn't be able to reconcile being in what it considers the "wrong" body.

It's not a choice, and it's a little bit more complicated than being "happier identifying as the opposite gender".

Should we separate bathrooms based on gender at all?

I'm not sure we should, but then I suppose I don't understand why we do in the first place. To my mind it seems like some sort of misplaced paranoia about sexuality, despite that what happens in there is rarely sexual in any manner. Kinda the same way men are free to run around shirtless (even if some, like myself, really shouldn't) while when a woman is running around with no top it's suddenly indecent exposure.

Maybe that could be the next grand step toward gender equality. Coed bathrooms for all!

 

[madwarper]

A side from the logistical issues (there's a reason why there generally isn't a line to get into the men's rooms), the only reason I see to keep gender segregated bathrooms is the assumption that some people would peep on the opposite sex if given the opportunity. But, it's not like bathrooms are further segregated by sexual orientation.

Regardless, let the person go into the bathroom they feel comfortable in.

Spoiler: Also, Semi-Relevant

 

[Quaxar]

Anyone who wants to use the women bathroom without physically necessarily having to jolly good luck to them I say.
I'd be for gender segregated bathrooms on the sole basis of seeing a bloody enormous queue every time I walk by a women's bathroom during a theatre intermission or something.

 

[Shadowstar38]

I was raised under the unspoken rule that if a member of the opposite sex was in the same bathroom with you or vise versa then something horribly wrong was going on.

Therefore, the thought of trans-men in the same bathroom as me is a bit disturbing.

Thankfully, as ignorant I am, I probably wouldn't be able to tell considering that's the whole point so it shouldn't really bother anybody else.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, you know those places that ban transgendered individuals from using the bathroom of their gender identity?

Not one, not a single one has been overrun by space lizards.[footnote]Unless you count the Vatican, but those space lizards were invited in[/footnote]

 

[HardkorSB]

Well, a lot of guys tend to act like assholes in public toilets, especially in pubs/bars/clubs, where there's alcohol involved. They piss everywhere but the toilet bowl, they clog up the bowl with whatever they can find, they write stupid shit on the walls, once I've seen a guy get into a "fight" with the bowl, breaking it in half in the end. I haven't even mentioned the really gross out stuff.
I'm not sure if women act like that as well but to my knowledge, not so much.
I also remember the rare glimpses I got of the girls bathrooms in school and they were always in a better condition than the boys bathrooms.
If I was a woman, I wouldn't want men to come into our bathrooms and destroy them as well.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

They should use whatever they're comfortable with. Who's going to tell them otherwise? There's no bathroom police.

 

[Gatx]

You'd never be able to tell though right? It's not like it's a locker room, but I feel like that might be an issue at some point. You're all in stalls and stuff anyway, and the only issue would be if a transgender female wanted to use the male bathroom and using a urinal, which may or may not have separators, but she shouldn't be really able to use one anyway right? At least not without difficulty anyway...

 

[piinyouri]

They should use whatever they're comfortable with. Who's going to tell them otherwise? There's no bathroom police.

Social pressure can feel a lot more convincing than any police force, government or local.

 

[darlarosa]

I know a number of people who are trans and gender fluid.It's about body dismorphia(sp). Gender identity is something that fits or that it doesn't. You may feel gender notions are silly, and many of them are because most is cultural. BUT there are psychological factors in human behavior and common though that are differentiated by biological gender. The problem for many trans people or gender fluid people is that the chemistry doesn't match the parts. It's not something as simple as if we got rid of all our social notions about gender identity and biology they would feel fine. It's looking at yourself in the mirror and intrinsically knowing something shouldn't be there or should be something else. Breasts don't feel like they're quite a part of you or a penis feels wrong. It's not about just wearing a dress which is what transexuals and may not have anything to do with sexuality or gender identity. It's about feeling your body is intrinsically wrong and making the physical line up with the psychological. One friend is gender fluid, and for biological her she has come to realize she has never felt like a man or a woman alone. It's hard to describe how she explained it, but basically she thought she was asexual then she thought she was a lesbian, because she while she never felt particularly in touch with her body she began to feel attracted to certain women.Then she felt she couldn't quite relate to other women in a "womanly way" except in some ways. She couldn't put her finger on it for a long time, but she never felt like only a girl but she never felt like only a boy because she felt like both in a way not defined by social definition. In her mind she felt as though she was in the right body, but didn't feel like a woman. Sexuality and gender identity are very complex issues that are hard to explain because people tend to experience their own identity differently despite the similarities. It's like when you realize you straight, you just know you are. For some people when they're born they don't question their gender, but for some they do because how they view themselves and how they feel doesn't match what they are physically or how they are perceived.

Bathroom separation is cultural, and only cultural. We are taught to care about other people's parts so we do. So many people feel uncomfortable with it. In my eyes...whose looking. At school I prefer female only floors and bathrooms only because outside of...hair for the most part females tend to be neater sometimes and so I won't end up being in the shower next to a couple fucking(this worked until last semester). And I'm not used to seeing guys half naked and walking around, so it makes me feel awkward because its hard not to stare. I don't care usually who uses what so long as everyone is respectful.

 

[Norithics]

Gender-separate bathrooms are a relic of when we were afraid to admit we went to the bathroom, and nobody said the word "Pregnant." The idea behind it is that it isn't 'decent' for one sex to see the other in that context, but reality television has thoroughly acquitted us of decency, so it's a flimsy excuse.

Personally, as a bisexual person, I can tell you that peeing next to people of either gender who are also peeing, while separated by plastic dividers painted by Steve Vai does not make me nervous, aroused or likely to vote for Ron Paul. There is no danger here.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Ultimately using the bathroom of the gender you believe yourself to be doesn't do anything but validate your beliefs and make you feel good, which is fine. I am not sure if that is worth the price of everyone else's comfort though... I mean, the world doesn't revolve around any one individual. It's not like using a toilet in a pink room instead of a blue one will make that penis fall off any faster.

As for the talk about unisex bathrooms, I don't think we're ready for that; at least Americans aren't. The men here are still pretty sleazy and juvenile. Whats worse, our society doesn't see too much wrong with it; it proliferates it instead. I would hate for a women to be put through having to use a bathroom a bunch of "dude-bros" are hanging out in. Women would likely try and stop using public bathrooms all together, some even fearing for their own safety.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

So, this is somewhat old news, but a transgender girl (born male) was allowed to use the girls restroom.

Since she is no longer male, I imagine she'd be required to use the girls room.

But the idea of sharing bathrooms between transgender girls and cis girls strikes me as not being illogical. Its been said that gender is what is in your head, and biological sex is what is between your legs. Fine, I can agree to that. But the segregation of bathrooms and locker rooms was never about what is in your head, we don't put all the girls in the same bathroom because we think they will have more to talk about without guys there. What is between your legs is the entire reason we separate them.

Unless you're using the wrong term, she's got a vagina between her legs. Unless she's pre-op.

Also this:

Gender-separate bathrooms are a relic of when we were afraid to admit we went to the bathroom, and nobody said the word "Pregnant." The idea behind it is that it isn't 'decent' for one sex to see the other in that context, but reality television has thoroughly acquitted us of decency, so it's a flimsy excuse.

Personally, as a bisexual person, I can tell you that peeing next to people of either gender who are also peeing, while separated by plastic dividers painted by Steve Vai does not make me nervous, aroused or likely to vote for Ron Paul. There is no danger here.

I agree with this statement.

And actually, a lot of places HAVE Co-ed bathrooms anymore. The mall near my house does. It's a "family" restroom - so that parents can take their opposite gender child to the bathroom without any issue. However, anyone, of any gender, can use the "family" restroom if they like - no children required.

There's still "Mens" and "Womens" rooms as well, but the third "Family" room is open to anyone. It's a start.

 

[Abomination]

It would probably be in everyone's best interest (including the trans in question) to use the bathroom that you physically look like the most to avoid questions and awkward situations.

So if you're a trans-woman and look like a woman then use the woman's bathroom but if you're a trans-woman and look like a man then I would suggest using the men's bathroom. How do you know what one you look like? Ask a friend who you can trust to tell you the truth "If you didn't know I was trans what sex/gender would you think I was just by looking at me?".

If you could pass as either one? Then flip a fucking coin, I don't care.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

So, this is somewhat old news, but a transgender girl (born male) was allowed to use the girls restroom.

Since she is no longer male, I imagine she'd be required to use the girls room.

But the idea of sharing bathrooms between transgender girls and cis girls strikes me as not being illogical. Its been said that gender is what is in your head, and biological sex is what is between your legs. Fine, I can agree to that. But the segregation of bathrooms and locker rooms was never about what is in your head, we don't put all the girls in the same bathroom because we think they will have more to talk about without guys there. What is between your legs is the entire reason we separate them.

Unless you're using the wrong term, she's got a vagina between her legs. Unless she's pre-op.

Also this:

Gender-separate bathrooms are a relic of when we were afraid to admit we went to the bathroom, and nobody said the word "Pregnant." The idea behind it is that it isn't 'decent' for one sex to see the other in that context, but reality television has thoroughly acquitted us of decency, so it's a flimsy excuse.

Personally, as a bisexual person, I can tell you that peeing next to people of either gender who are also peeing, while separated by plastic dividers painted by Steve Vai does not make me nervous, aroused or likely to vote for Ron Paul. There is no danger here.

I agree with this statement.

And actually, a lot of places HAVE Co-ed bathrooms anymore. The mall near my house does. It's a "family" restroom - so that parents can take their opposite gender child to the bathroom without any issue. However, anyone, of any gender, can use the "family" restroom if they like - no children required.

There's still "Mens" and "Womens" rooms as well, but the third "Family" room is open to anyone. It's a start.

She's transgender (refers to herself as a her and such) but hasn't had any medical operations. She is only 6. The battle was over whether a public school should allow her to continue using the girls' room, as she had been, in light of her getting older. Her family won the court case, so even though she is very much biologically male, she is allowed to use the girls' room. Her name is Coy Mathis, if you want to look up more information on it. And the theatre where I used to work had a family room as well. At least in one section.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Ultimately using the bathroom of the gender you believe yourself to be doesn't do anything but validate your beliefs and make you feel good, which is fine. I am not sure if that is worth the price of everyone else's comfort though... I mean, the world doesn't revolve around any one individual. It's not like using a toilet in a pink room instead of a blue one will make that penis fall off any faster.

As for the talk about unisex bathrooms, I don't think we're ready for that; at least Americans aren't. The men here are still pretty sleazy and juvenile. Whats worse, our society doesn't see too much wrong with it; it proliferates it instead. I would hate for a women to be put through having to use a bathroom a bunch of "dude-bros" are hanging out in. Women would likely try and stop using public bathrooms all together, some even fearing for their own safety.

Considering that women already interact with men on a daily basis, I don't see how the fact that the interaction is taking place in a bathroom would change things very much. And I am a little offended at the idea that men would be the ones to cause all the problems in this hypothetical situation. Despite sexist stereotypes, we aren't all evil, unthinking, monsters you know. Most of us are quite nice.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Considering that women already interact with men on a daily basis, I don't see how the fact that the interaction is taking place in a bathroom would change things very much. And I am a little offended at the idea that men would be the ones to cause all the problems in this hypothetical situation. Despite sexist stereotypes, we aren't all evil, unthinking, monsters you know. Most of us are quite nice.

I know, but take some things into consideration. Look at all the sexual harassment that takes place in the work environment alone, and that's in front of people. 95% (or more) of the time it's a man doing it to, or am I exaggerating that? But you're right, men aren't monsters, but the few monsters who are men will now be given a new opportunity to make life difficult for women at a very private and vulnerable moment. I know women who are uncomfortable begin alone in an elevator with a strange guy, and now you would ask them to drop their pants and pee next to them? Alone, in a confined room with no witnesses? That seems unnecessarily cruel and even a little stupid.
Are you familiar with Gyms? I know women in my family who are very selective about the times they go, and it's all for the same reason. Using certain machines or doing certain stretches get them uncomfortable stares by half the male population there, and it just becomes degrading and upsetting over time. This even deters them from using their own gym membership very much; a membership they are paying good money for each year. Again, you'd now ask them to drop their pants around these same people and request they be comfortable with it? Stalls don't really hide much I'm afraid.