Transgenders, bathrooms, and gender segragation

[lapan]

Well, a lot of guys tend to act like assholes in public toilets, especially in pubs/bars/clubs, where there's alcohol involved. They piss everywhere but the toilet bowl, they clog up the bowl with whatever they can find, they write stupid shit on the walls, once I've seen a guy get into a "fight" with the bowl, breaking it in half in the end. I haven't even mentioned the really gross out stuff.
I'm not sure if women act like that as well but to my knowledge, not so much.
I also remember the rare glimpses I got of the girls bathrooms in school and they were always in a better condition than the boys bathrooms.
If I was a woman, I wouldn't want men to come into our bathrooms and destroy them as well.

I heard rumors that womens bathrooms can be just as disgusting.

Not that i ever cheacked myself though

 

[Abomination]

She's transgender (refers to herself as a her and such) but hasn't had any medical operations. She is only 6. The battle was over whether a public school should allow her to continue using the girls' room, as she had been, in light of her getting older. Her family won the court case, so even though she is very much biologically male, she is allowed to use the girls' room. Her name is Coy Mathis, if you want to look up more information on it. And the theatre where I used to work had a family room as well. At least in one section.

Hold on, transgender at SIX?

No, that's not the individual's choice, that's the parents imposing that upon the child.

A six year old has no idea what their sexuality is let alone their gender or what even EITHER of those even are in the first place.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

She's transgender (refers to herself as a her and such) but hasn't had any medical operations. She is only 6. The battle was over whether a public school should allow her to continue using the girls' room, as she had been, in light of her getting older. Her family won the court case, so even though she is very much biologically male, she is allowed to use the girls' room. Her name is Coy Mathis, if you want to look up more information on it. And the theatre where I used to work had a family room as well. At least in one section.

Hold on, transgender at SIX?

No, that's not the individual's choice, that's the parents imposing that upon the child.

A six year old has no idea what their sexuality is let alone their gender or what even EITHER of those even are in the first place.

Apparently she started playing with girls' toys and dressing in girls' clothes, and eventually calling herself a girl, so the parents went along with it, as did the school for a time.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Hold on, transgender at SIX?

No, that's not the individual's choice, that's the parents imposing that upon the child.

A six year old has no idea what their sexuality is let alone their gender or what even EITHER of those even are in the first place.

I know two couples who were both aware what their child's sexuality was way before puberty had set in (straight couple with lesbian child and a lesbian couple with a straight child), I wouldn't dismiss it outright.

 

[Fairy Fatale]

I'm a transwoman who always uses the women's bathrooms and, if swimming, changerooms.

Then again, I have passing privilege. I look female. Unless you looked in my underwear, you'd never know.

But that's really the issue, isn't it? If you can pass, nobody is ever the wiser! When you are in the changeroom, do you look around, wondering if there are any trannies hiding in the mists? Maybe that person in that stall has different genitalia than you! Do you honestly think these things?

No, of course not.

The judgment happens when you see a trans person who does not pass use the restroom. Then all kinds of uppity words and opinions get thrown about. There are plenty of biological women who are absolutely hideous, and they still get to use the women's washroom, so it's not even based on how pretty you are. No. It's based on how well you approximate the sex you're presenting as.

The idea of gendered bathrooms is a flawed one. They'll fall apart in the next ten years or so.

 

[Thomas Barnsley]

I thought bathrooms were segregated to avoid indecency (rape, public sex, perving, that kind of thing).

If they weren't segregated we'd get some idiot guy trying to get a peak in a cubical they saw a woman go into, or vice versa. Segregating them makes this less likely to occur.

As to transgender, I think undergoing the sex change operation makes you, at a glance, the other gender. You can't change the DNA or install/remove a womb, but we don't have to deal with those biological details in the bathroom. Therefore, a transgender girl should use the girl's bathroom.

Also, the reason people get these operation is so they can feel like the other gender. Unfortunately they can never be the other gender, can't change DNA that well. But they can act and look like the other gender, which includes using that gender's bathroom.

 

[Abomination]

I know two couples who were both aware what their child's sexuality was way before puberty had set in (straight couple with lesbian child and a lesbian couple with a straight child), I wouldn't dismiss it outright.

Sexuality isn't gender identity, a child's sexuality is something that won't be explored by the child until they're at least approaching puberty and it isn't something that will even come up much.

Apparently she started playing with girls' toys and dressing in girls' clothes, and eventually calling herself a girl, so the parents went along with it, as did the school for a time.

Gender however WILL come up a lot, especially at school. "eventually calling herself a girl" is something I just can't believe happened without parental encouragement. In fact, the entire thing is something that happened with parental encouragement.

I'm calling bullshit that it occurred without any parental influence.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Sexuality isn't gender identity, a child's sexuality is something that won't be explored by the child until they're at least approaching puberty and it isn't something that will even come up much.

Which sort of was my point, that if one's sexuality can be seen THAT early, then a formed gender identity isn't impossible at that age.

 

[Norithics]

I'm calling bullshit that it occurred without any parental influence.

About as much parental influence as is given to kids normally, what with wallpapering, toy choices, clothing choices, etc., etc.

It would be pretty much impossible not to influence them one way or another. It appears these parents just went with what seemed to be naturally happening.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Sexuality isn't gender identity, a child's sexuality is something that won't be explored by the child until they're at least approaching puberty and it isn't something that will even come up much.

Which sort of was my point, that if sexuality can be seen THAT early, then gender identity isn't impossible at that age.

I sincerely doubt sexuality can. Sexuality is sexual attraction. Before puberty, you simply aren't attracted to anyone, you aren't in any way sexual. Without the component of attraction, all you have to go on is stereotyping.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

I sincerely doubt sexuality can. Sexuality is sexual attraction. Before puberty, you simply aren't attracted to anyone, you aren't in any way sexual. Without the component of attraction, all you have to go on is stereotyping.

I was attracted to women before I hit puberty, just not sexually as I am now. I found them pretty.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

I sincerely doubt sexuality can. Sexuality is sexual attraction. Before puberty, you simply aren't attracted to anyone, you aren't in any way sexual. Without the component of attraction, all you have to go on is stereotyping.

I was attracted to women before I hit puberty, just not sexually as I am now. I found them pretty.

Except that isn't a aspect of sexual attraction. Otherwise I doubt the stereotype of the fashion-knowledgeable gay guy could be plausible, at least towards women. Women find each other pretty often, doesn't mean they are secretly gay/bisexual.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It would be pretty much impossible not to influence them one way or another.

Important point there, it works both ways.

If young children cannot know their own gender, this should apply to cisgender children as much as transgender ones. I don't tend to see many people outraged at parents forcing a cisgender ideology on their 6 year olds.

 

[Abomination]

I'm calling bullshit that it occurred without any parental influence.

About as much parental influence as is given to kids normally, what with wallpapering, toy choices, clothing choices, etc., etc.

It would be pretty much impossible not to influence them one way or another. It appears these parents just went with what seemed to be naturally happening.

When did things start to deviate from the course though? The toys, dress and such would have been decided at birth... when did the child start showing signs they preferred "female" products?

Which, in itself, isn't evidence of someone's gender. Do you like barbie or G.I. Joe? Is that the litmus test of someone's gender? "I wanna be a girl!" shouldn't be met with "Okay, you're a girl now!". The question "Why?" should be asked and the child should at least elaborate on something that is abnormal.

The whole scenario reeks of improbabilities and convenient excuses. I'm convinced it was a decision made before evidence was collected.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Except that isn't a aspect of sexual attraction.

I guess expressing none-sexual attraction is hard to explain from back when you were a wee one. Maybe I am wrong, but then again then so would the two couples I spoke of.

 

[Abomination]

It would be pretty much impossible not to influence them one way or another.

Important point there, it works both ways.

If young children cannot know their own gender, this should apply to cisgender children as much as transgender ones. I don't tend to see many people outraged at parents forcing a cisgender ideology on their 6 year olds.

Probably because there's a significantly higher chance they aren't predicting it incorrectly. As the child matures - intellectually, emotionally and sexually - the picture would become more clear, but it most certainly is not clear at (or even before, as is implied) 6 years of age.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

I thought bathrooms were segregated to avoid indecency (rape, public sex, perving, that kind of thing).

If they weren't segregated we'd get some idiot guy trying to get a peak in a cubical they saw a woman go into, or vice versa. Segregating them makes this less likely to occur.

As to transgender, I think undergoing the sex change operation makes you, at a glance, the other gender. You can't change the DNA or install/remove a womb, but we don't have to deal with those biological details in the bathroom. Therefore, a transgender girl should use the girl's bathroom.

Also, the reason people get these operation is so they can feel like the other gender. Unfortunately they can never be the other gender, can't change DNA that well. But they can act and look like the other gender, which includes using that gender's bathroom.

Except if that is the purpose why are gays allowed in bathrooms? And why aren't asexuals allowed in any bathroom they please? And how does being transgender transfer bathroom privileges, when many transgendered people are attracted to the gender they are transferring into?

 

[Norithics]

When did things start to deviate from the course though? The toys, dress and such would have been decided at birth... when did the child start showing signs they preferred "female" products?

I'm thinking when the child started showing patterns of preference during play. And other alliterative P words.

Which, in itself, isn't evidence of someone's gender. Do you like barbie or G.I. Joe? Is that the litmus test of someone's gender? "I wanna be a girl!" shouldn't be met with "Okay, you're a girl now!". The question "Why?" should be asked and the child should at least elaborate on something that is abnormal.

Okay, you can't have it both ways, here. Either you accept that there are stereotypical trappings of gender and let your kid go where they want to on that field of battle, or you push for the genderless, egalitarian society whole cloth. It's easy to argue on a forum for the practicality of both, but in reality you've gotta make a decision at some point here. :\

Important point there, it works both ways.

If young children cannot know their own gender, this should apply to cisgender children as much as transgender ones. I don't tend to see many people outraged at parents forcing a cisgender ideology on their 6 year olds.

Indeed. I really don't like it when the 'normal' option is considered 'not taking a side.' You're taking it, you're just blissfully able to disregard any consequences because it's 'safe.' :T

 

[Abomination]

I thought bathrooms were segregated to avoid indecency (rape, public sex, perving, that kind of thing).

If they weren't segregated we'd get some idiot guy trying to get a peak in a cubical they saw a woman go into, or vice versa. Segregating them makes this less likely to occur.

As to transgender, I think undergoing the sex change operation makes you, at a glance, the other gender. You can't change the DNA or install/remove a womb, but we don't have to deal with those biological details in the bathroom. Therefore, a transgender girl should use the girl's bathroom.

Also, the reason people get these operation is so they can feel like the other gender. Unfortunately they can never be the other gender, can't change DNA that well. But they can act and look like the other gender, which includes using that gender's bathroom.

Except if that is the purpose why are gays allowed in bathrooms? And why aren't asexuals allowed in any bathroom they please? And how does being transgender transfer bathroom privileges, when many transgendered people are attracted to the gender they are transferring into?

Because it's based on probabilities and the idea of introducing... what, 6 different types of bathroom would just be ridiculous?

It also wouldn't solve the "issue" of a gay man going into a female restroom as a female may be sexually attracted to the gay man.

It's best to just keep it to "go to the restroom you look like the most" to avoid as much "trouble" as possible.