Transgenders, bathrooms, and gender segragation

[Abomination]

Indeed. I really don't like it when the 'normal' option is considered 'not taking a side.' You're taking it, you're just blissfully able to disregard any consequences because it's 'safe.' :T

When we're dealing with the emotional well-being and psyche of a 6 year old I would say "safe" is most certainly the option one should take. You have a far higher chance of being wrong by siding against the grain than siding with the grain when it comes to gender and/or sexuality.

I don't even want to think of the problems that will arise when it comes to sports at school.

 

[Thomas Barnsley]

I thought bathrooms were segregated to avoid indecency (rape, public sex, perving, that kind of thing).

If they weren't segregated we'd get some idiot guy trying to get a peak in a cubical they saw a woman go into, or vice versa. Segregating them makes this less likely to occur.

As to transgender, I think undergoing the sex change operation makes you, at a glance, the other gender. You can't change the DNA or install/remove a womb, but we don't have to deal with those biological details in the bathroom. Therefore, a transgender girl should use the girl's bathroom.

Also, the reason people get these operation is so they can feel like the other gender. Unfortunately they can never be the other gender, can't change DNA that well. But they can act and look like the other gender, which includes using that gender's bathroom.

Except if that is the purpose why are gays allowed in bathrooms? And why aren't asexuals allowed in any bathroom they please? And how does being transgender transfer bathroom privileges, when many transgendered people are attracted to the gender they are transferring into?

Well I don't know to be honest. I suppose you could say it's because there aren't as many gay people as there are straight people. And you can't just let them into other gender bathrooms because they could be lying.

Also, something that just occurred to me was that bathrooms have been segregated longer than homosexuality has been socially acceptable, so it's probably just a flaw in an out of date system.

 

[Norithics]

When we're dealing with the emotional well-being and psyche of a 6 year old I would say "safe" is most certainly the option one should take. You have a far higher chance of being wrong by siding against the grain than siding with the grain when it comes to gender and/or sexuality.

That sounds good on paper, but as someone who clearly remembers school, it's incredibly naive to think that A) this would make the child 'safe' in any way from ridicule, or B) remaining under the radar serves the child in any way. All it does is delay the point in their life where they're going to realize they're different from other people and have to face that random baseless ridicule. It's all well and good to say "Protect the children," but that sentiment is meant toward keeping them from drinking paint thinner, not shielding them from social dissonance they'll have to face anyway.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

When we're dealing with the emotional well-being and psyche of a 6 year old I would say "safe" is most certainly the option one should take. You have a far higher chance of being wrong by siding against the grain than siding with the grain when it comes to gender and/or sexuality.

That sounds good on paper, but as someone who clearly remembers school, it's incredibly naive to think that A) this would make the child 'safe' in any way from ridicule, or B) remaining under the radar serves the child in any way. All it does is delay the point in their life where they're going to realize they're different from other people and have to face that random baseless ridicule. It's all well and good to say "Protect the children," but that sentiment is meant toward keeping them from drinking paint thinner, not shielding them from social dissonance they'll have to face anyway.

I think he was more worried that the child wasn't really transgender (or more properly, isn't suffering gender dysphoria)and that the parents just suggested it into existence, or misinterpreted a child not understanding the difference between the genders as a child actively choosing their gender. And "guess that a person follows the pattern the vast majority of people do, until proven otherwise" isn't a bad philosophy, as you will be right most of the time.

 

[Abomination]

When we're dealing with the emotional well-being and psyche of a 6 year old I would say "safe" is most certainly the option one should take. You have a far higher chance of being wrong by siding against the grain than siding with the grain when it comes to gender and/or sexuality.

That sounds good on paper, but as someone who clearly remembers school, it's incredibly naive to think that A) this would make the child 'safe' in any way from ridicule, or B) remaining under the radar serves the child in any way. All it does is delay the point in their life where they're going to realize they're different from other people and have to face that random baseless ridicule. It's all well and good to say "Protect the children," but that sentiment is meant toward keeping them from drinking paint thinner, not shielding them from social dissonance they'll have to face anyway.

I think he was more worried that the child wasn't really transgender (or more properly, isn't suffering gender dysphoria)and that the parents just suggested it into existence, or misinterpreted a child not understanding the difference between the genders as a child actively choosing their gender. And "guess that a person follows the pattern the vast majority of people do, until proven otherwise" isn't a bad philosophy, as you will be right most of the time.

Exactly, better to be prepared for a false negative of trans or homosexuality than encourage a false positive in this case.

What if the child realizes they actually AREN'T trans and went through all the (highly probable) scorn and resentment at school? Even worse, what will it do to their relationship with their parents? It's one thing to dress your kid up as a barbie but another to convince them they are Barbie so dressing them up is even easier.

Err on the side of caution, it's a six year old child!

 

[Norithics]

I think he was more worried that the child wasn't really transgender (or more properly, isn't suffering gender dysphoria)and that the parents just suggested it into existence, or misinterpreted a child not understanding the difference between the genders as a child actively choosing their gender. And "guess that a person follows the pattern the vast majority of people do, until proven otherwise" isn't a bad philosophy, as you will be right most of the time.

Then it's a pointless worry, because he has no more information than the rest of us do as to what's going on with that kid.

You all are acting like this is the first time parents have made a bad guess at what a kid would turn out like! I'm here to tell you that it isn't, and that's just the way things go! This kid isn't any more put out by being 'wrongly transgender' than any trangender kid is by being 'wrongly cis.' My parents thought I was gonna be a rocket scientist and tried to cram me through college, but it wasn't for me; they made a bad call. It happens, kiddo, that's life!

Exactly, better to be prepared for a false negative of trans or homosexuality than encourage a false positive in this case.

Yeah, no, see above. If the kid has to learn that people are shitty to those who're different, it's as good an occasion as any.

 

[Abomination]

I think he was more worried that the child wasn't really transgender (or more properly, isn't suffering gender dysphoria)and that the parents just suggested it into existence, or misinterpreted a child not understanding the difference between the genders as a child actively choosing their gender. And "guess that a person follows the pattern the vast majority of people do, until proven otherwise" isn't a bad philosophy, as you will be right most of the time.

Then it's a pointless worry, because he has no more information than the rest of us do as to what's going on with that kid.

You all are acting like this is the first time parents have made a bad guess at what a kid would turn out like! I'm here to tell you that it isn't, and that's just the way things go! This kid isn't any more put out by being 'wrongly transgender' than any trangender kid is by being 'wrongly cis.' My parents thought I was gonna be a rocket scientist and tried to cram me through college, but it wasn't for me; they made a bad call. It happens, kiddo, that's life!

Exactly, better to be prepared for a false negative of trans or homosexuality than encourage a false positive in this case.

Yeah, no, see above. If the kid has to learn that people are shitty to those who're different, it's as good an occasion as any.

Your parents HOPED you would be a rocket scientist. This is parents HOPING their child is going to be trans - something they have a VERY high chance of getting wrong.

The child is SIX. Nobody knows, even the child doesn't know, what their gender is going to be and yes it is worse to assume they're trans for all the harm it will do - even if they're right!

Yes, a child needs to know that people will be jerks but better it's not forced upon them and especially not at SIX. Why would any sane parent invite those types of troubles or issues upon a six year old?

 

[Scarecrow]

I think he was more worried that the child wasn't really transgender (or more properly, isn't suffering gender dysphoria)and that the parents just suggested it into existence, or misinterpreted a child not understanding the difference between the genders as a child actively choosing their gender. And "guess that a person follows the pattern the vast majority of people do, until proven otherwise" isn't a bad philosophy, as you will be right most of the time.

Then it's a pointless worry, because he has no more information than the rest of us do as to what's going on with that kid.

You all are acting like this is the first time parents have made a bad guess at what a kid would turn out like! I'm here to tell you that it isn't, and that's just the way things go! This kid isn't any more put out by being 'wrongly transgender' than any trangender kid is by being 'wrongly cis.' My parents thought I was gonna be a rocket scientist and tried to cram me through college, but it wasn't for me; they made a bad call. It happens, kiddo, that's life!

Exactly, better to be prepared for a false negative of trans or homosexuality than encourage a false positive in this case.

Yeah, no, see above. If the kid has to learn that people are shitty to those who're different, it's as good an occasion as any.

Your parents HOPED you would be a rocket scientist. This is parents HOPING their child is going to be trans - something they have a VERY high chance of getting wrong.

The child is SIX. Nobody knows, even the child doesn't know, what their gender is going to be and yes it is worse to assume they're trans for all the harm it will do - even if they're right!

Yes, a child needs to know that people will be jerks but better it's not forced upon them and especially not at SIX. Why would any sane parent invite those types of troubles or issues upon a six year old?

Sorry to just randomly jump in, but why does her age matter at all? Children often learn that other people are mean at about 1. Babies don't even understand the concept of empathy. If it wasn't transgender, they would pick on the child just for being girly, or for his hair colour, or the way he talked. The age of the child doesn't really matter, and trying to get him to hide what he feels won't help.

Hell, even if the kid doesn't know, and "grows out of it", at least they'll feel like their parents trust them, rather than being told that "No, you can't do that".

 

[Norithics]

Your parents HOPED you would be a rocket scientist. This is parents HOPING their child is going to be trans - something they have a VERY high chance of getting wrong.

Aaand if they are wrong the kid will be fine.

The child is SIX. Nobody knows, even the child doesn't know, what their gender is going to be and yes it is worse to assume they're trans for all the harm it will do - even if they're right!

Yes, a child needs to know that people will be jerks but better it's not forced upon them and especially not at SIX. Why would any sane parent invite those types of troubles or issues upon a six year old?

*laughs*

Okay, here. I've gone without mentioning this for this long, but.
Do you know how I know that this kid will be just fine? Considering the situation?
Because I, myself, was in that very situation.

I thought I was MtF transsexual, and I believed this for years. My parents were unsupportive as hell. My friends didn't accept it, I lost friends over it, only people over the internet even expressed anything but contempt. And to bring it all to a big irony soufflé, I was wrong. This thing I knew about myself was completely and utterly wrong and it took me years to even see it. I was twelve when this started.

But I turned out perfectly fine. Because I learned that people who you think are good to you can actually turn out to be really shitty friends. And that your parents don't always believe in you. And that sometimes what you believe can be wrong. I learned all these things because of these experiences, which I would've otherwise had, but probably at a later age. And I would've killed for at least some parents standing behind me.

Here's something else to chew on. When I was in school, we had a kid who said he was Native American. When somebody found out this was false, everybody bagged on him constantly. People with mixed ancestry were ridiculed. Mormon kids have been the laughingstock of every school I've been to!

The point is, everyone gets their time in the shame barrel. Kids are shitty little monsters to each other and though you may wish with your heart of hearts that it's not true, and if these weird deviant parents would just be normal for a change... it wouldn't make a lick of difference.

At all.

 

[MagunBFP]

That sounds good on paper, but as someone who clearly remembers school, it's incredibly naive to think that A) this would make the child 'safe' in any way from ridicule, or B) remaining under the radar serves the child in any way. All it does is delay the point in their life where they're going to realize they're different from other people and have to face that random baseless ridicule. It's all well and good to say "Protect the children," but that sentiment is meant toward keeping them from drinking paint thinner, not shielding them from social dissonance they'll have to face anyway.

Lets assume all children get bullied in school so your point about the child not being "safe" is valid... but you then go onto suggest that the child should be thrown under the "you are now different from pretty much everyone you know in a specific and fundamental undeniable way" bus as soon as possible, no consideration that if by delaying this you allow the child to mature and develop a chance to deal with the inevitable fallout that such a revelation would bring. Why do we shield children from sex or excessive violence or horror? The answer is simple despite the fact that one day they will deal with these things as a young child though they're just not ready to for that exposure. Ultimately just because you have to face something anyway doesn't mean you should do it before you're ready.

 

[rob_simple]

Because perverts.

Personally, I don't have an issue with gay guys using the same bathroom as me, because if anyone wants to take a look at my tackle they're welcome to; so long as they don't talk to me or try and cop a feel. Gays and transgenders do blur the lines a little, but unless you want them to start wearing yellow arm bands, separating by sex is the only thing we can do. Since it's a place I only go to piss and shit, I don't really mind who I have to share it with.

If bathrooms just turned into a free-for-all, though, it would be utter carnage; there'd be wanking in the sinks, I guarantee it.

Besides, ladies, as I understand, only use stalls, and I like to use stalls because, despite not bothering who sees my wilkins, I have the worst stage fright in the entire world: I can't go if there's even someone else in the room, never mind next to me at the urinal.

 

[electric_warrior]

Race and gender are not analogous. You can't extrapolate from one to the other. Race is simply a matter of cosmetic differences, whereas gender runs as deep as brain structure. Race makes no difference, gender makes a significant difference. If it didn't, why would anyone feel that they were innately one or the other enough to undergo a sex change? You can't be innately black or white, but most people are innately one gender or the other.

That said, my school had unisex bathrooms and they were fine.

 

[Abomination]

Sorry to just randomly jump in, but why does her age matter at all? Children often learn that other people are mean at about 1. Babies don't even understand the concept of empathy. If it wasn't transgender, they would pick on the child just for being girly, or for his hair colour, or the way he talked. The age of the child doesn't really matter, and trying to get him to hide what he feels won't help.

Hell, even if the kid doesn't know, and "grows out of it", at least they'll feel like their parents trust them, rather than being told that "No, you can't do that".

Would you trust a six year old to understand the concept of gender identity and the implications thereof?

Better to be an effeminate boy than a child who looks physically like a boy but dresses, acts and calls themselves a girl on their parents insistence.

Aaand if they are wrong the kid will be fine.

And all the issues they suffered for being wrong is just going to be water under the bridge? The risks to the child's psyche and social interactions of growing up in this manner are very high.

How you can think there's no chance the child will come out of school without some extra emotional baggage after being convinced wrongly by their parents that they're a girl trapped in a boy's body is just baffling.

*laughs*

Okay, here. I've gone without mentioning this for this long, but.
Do you know how I know that this kid will be just fine? Considering the situation?
Because I, myself, was in that very situation.

Except you were not in that very situation. Your parents didn't tell you at 6 years old that you are a woman but were physically born a man.

I thought I was MtF transsexual, and I believed this for years. My parents were unsupportive as hell. My friends didn't accept it, I lost friends over it, only people over the internet even expressed anything but contempt. And to bring it all to a big irony soufflé, I was wrong. This thing I knew about myself was completely and utterly wrong and it took me years to even see it. I was twelve when this started.

But I turned out perfectly fine. Because I learned that people who you think are good to you can actually turn out to be really shitty friends. And that your parents don't always believe in you. And that sometimes what you believe can be wrong. I learned all these things because of these experiences, which I would've otherwise had, but probably at a later age. And I would've killed for at least some parents standing behind me.

Here's something else to chew on. When I was in school, we had a kid who said he was Native American. When somebody found out this was false, everybody bagged on him constantly. People with mixed ancestry were ridiculed. Mormon kids have been the laughingstock of every school I've been to!

The point is, everyone gets their time in the shame barrel. Kids are shitty little monsters to each other and though you may wish with your heart of hearts that it's not true, and if these weird deviant parents would just be normal for a change... it wouldn't make a lick of difference.

At all.

Hold on, so you were wrong about being MtF and your parents were RIGHT about you not being MtF?

Or did you realize you were MtF when you were 12?

The point is that YOU are the one who realized it, not your parents. That decision is up to the individual, not the parents.

You're proposing the idea of needlessly complicating the life of a child during a period of time where the one thing they need above all else is stability. Rather they're being turned into a socio-political statement.

 

[Norithics]

Except you were not in that very situation. Your parents didn't tell you at 6 years old that you are a woman but were physically born a man.

What a hopelessly pedantic statement, considering you yourself stated it was the idea of being different in the first place that would cause all that needless horrible suffering.

Hold on, so you were wrong about being MtF and your parents were RIGHT about you not being MtF?
Or did you realize you were MtF when you were 12?
The point is that YOU are the one who realized it, not your parents. That decision is up to the individual, not the parents.
You're proposing the idea of needlessly complicating the life of a child during a period of time where the one thing they need above all else is stability. Rather they're being turned into a socio-political statement.

I could throw that right back in your face and say that reinforcing cisgender norms on a kid who may be trans (or may just not fit gender stereotypes) would do exactly the same thing, but you'd hide behind the meaningless statistical probabilities that you pull out of thin air because nobody actually knows any of those numbers. I retort that the parents seemed to be working off of what was manifesting in the child (because this is what they said happened), you reply that you just know they were doing it for some other terrible reason because you just do, and the conversation goes back for a third loop around.

This is getting super-tiring, no thanks.

 

[Talvrae]

Euh what kind of transgender we are talking about anyway here? Operated, or just hormoned? Anyway wouldnt it be just as ackward in the boys bathroom?

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I thought, as the OP said, we differentiate based on physical differences alone, and somewhat to do with the facilities provided to accomodate those differences. So I think biological gender is the only thing that matters where bathrooms are concerned.

 

[Jux]

When you are in the changeroom, do you look around, wondering if there are any trannies hiding in the mists?

>_< I shouldn't read this while drinking, now there is coke on my keyboard, and up my nose. The thought of transfolk stalking people 'in the mist', like ninjas, is all kinds of hilarious. I could totally see this being done in a B movie.

 

[Fairy Fatale]

It's best to just keep it to "go to the restroom you look like the most" to avoid as much "trouble" as possible.

Basically this.
We've already got the idea of "family" bathrooms, which attempt to solve the problem of having multiple people of potentially mixed sexes in the same potty at the same time.

There's this idea that a bathroom is a kind of "safe zone" or "Girls Only Club". If I used the men's room, I would feel so very out of place. I look female, I act female and as such, there's no place for me in the boy's treefort, no matter what might be between my legs. We'll get it sorted out in the next twenty years as businesses and public areas see that having segregated bathrooms is both inefficient and costly.

For now, Abomination's pretty much got it right.

 

[Angie7F]

Anyone who wants to use the women bathroom without physically necessarily having to jolly good luck to them I say.
I'd be for gender segregated bathrooms on the sole basis of seeing a bloody enormous queue every time I walk by a women's bathroom during a theatre intermission or something.

This is it for me too.
I think it makes sense to have a "fast lane" and the men happen to be good at that.
it is much more effective than having a medium speed toilet for all.

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

I don't think we should segregate bathrooms based on sex at all. I think we should just have larger or multiple bathrooms that anyone can use.