Transgenders, bathrooms, and gender segragation

[Fairy Fatale]

Anyone who wants to use the women bathroom without physically necessarily having to jolly good luck to them I say.
I'd be for gender segregated bathrooms on the sole basis of seeing a bloody enormous queue every time I walk by a women's bathroom during a theatre intermission or something.

This is it for me too.
I think it makes sense to have a "fast lane" and the men happen to be good at that.
it is much more effective than having a medium speed toilet for all.

Haha! I hadn't thought of this, but yes. Perhaps there should be two rooms: urinals and stalls. If you stand up to pee and need to Make it So, Number One, then hit the fast lane. Otherwise, get in queue for a stall.

If you happen to be one of those rare women who can stand up to pee, all the more power to you.

 

[KOMega]

Okay, so I see two options here that can fit into the facilities we already have:

1) We choose a social standpoint where the transgendered person takes the room which they outwardly look like they belong to, considering social norms in dress and physical shape and appearance.

2) We choose a biological standpoint, and the transgendered person takes the room corresponding to what type of crotch they have, considering what facilities are required for them to do their business.

There is a third option, but I think there are a few unique problems here, but I don't fully understand them either, so it could just be my imagination.

3) Washrooms are now unisex. Number of washrooms is now decided, not on gender, but simply for load balancing.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Okay, so I see two options here that can fit into the facilities we already have:

1) We choose a social standpoint where the transgendered person takes the room which they outwardly look like they belong to, considering social norms in dress and physical shape and appearance.

2) We choose a biological standpoint, and the transgendered person takes the room corresponding to what type of crotch they have, considering what facilities are required for them to do their business.

There is a third option, but I think there are a few unique problems here, but I don't fully understand them either, so it could just be my imagination.

3) Washrooms are now unisex. Number of washrooms is now decided, not on gender, but simply for load balancing.

Er, what's wrong with them simply going to the bathroom appropriate to which gender they identify as?

 

[ninjaRiv]

Let's all share bathrooms! Let's all share showers! I'm up for that!

But I know a lot of people want to keep bathrooms and shower rooms as is and this situation does kinda seem... Wrong, in a way. To the young lady who got to use the bathroom, I have no doubt it made her feel great and felt like a kind of victory for her. But to the other women using it, it might have felt like a guy with a dick swinging around invading their bathrooms. It might have felt like an invasion of privacy or a betrayal. It's all well and good to let people be themselves but, well, what about the others using the bathroom? How many women would be comfortable with a guy walking in while they're doing their business? Heck, as much as a lot of guys would cheer the idea of a woman walking into the male bathroom, if it really happened they'd feel just as uncomfortable. Imo it seems kind of selfish to demand to use a woman's bathroom if you've got a penis.

 

[Thaluikhain]

How many women would be comfortable with a guy walking in while they're doing their business?

Indeed, transmen should go to the men's room. Due to being a man.

t might have felt like an invasion of privacy or a betrayal. It's all well and good to let people be themselves but, well, what about the others using the bathroom?

Now, I know it's not exactly the same, but I can't help but think people said that when they stopped desegregating water fountains by race in the US.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

Anyone who wants to use the women bathroom without physically necessarily having to jolly good luck to them I say.
I'd be for gender segregated bathrooms on the sole basis of seeing a bloody enormous queue every time I walk by a women's bathroom during a theatre intermission or something.

This is it for me too.
I think it makes sense to have a "fast lane" and the men happen to be good at that.
it is much more effective than having a medium speed toilet for all.

Haha! I hadn't thought of this, but yes. Perhaps there should be two rooms: urinals and stalls. If you stand up to pee and need to Make it So, Number One, then hit the fast lane. Otherwise, get in queue for a stall.

If you happen to be one of those rare women who can stand up to pee, all the more power to you.

I think they have devices for that now. It's basically just a piece of plastic.

Don't ask me why but they do.

 

[ninjaRiv]

How many women would be comfortable with a guy walking in while they're doing their business?

Indeed, transmen should go to the men's room. Due to being a man.

t might have felt like an invasion of privacy or a betrayal. It's all well and good to let people be themselves but, well, what about the others using the bathroom?

Now, I know it's not exactly the same, but I can't help but think people said that when they stopped desegregating water fountains by race in the US.

I didn't say they'd be comfortable in the men's room, either. But to make a choice like changing your gender, there will be consequences and feeling uncomfortable in a bathroom is one of them. It sucks that they can't feel completely natural at all times, it really does but that's how it is. You can't convince everybody that they need to start sharing their bathroom with somebody they're not comfortable sharing it with. Like I said, I'm fine with it but a lot of people aren't and I feel like it's unfair to make them feel uncomfortable fore the sake of one person.

I see what you're saying with the water fountain point but it's not really the same at all. That was basic stupidity and hatred. This is just wanting to feel comfortable when you're pissing. In an ideal world, doing your business (be it peeing, shitting, inserting tampons are using the glory hole) in front of people would feel comfortable no matter what gender you identify with. This is not an ideal world and never will be.

EDIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I should also point out that I reckon if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck it should just swim in the pond and not bother telling the other ducks that it has different genitals, since they can't be seen in the cubicle anyway. No need to announce the fact that you have a penis, just go into the lady's bathroom. It's when they ask or demand to go in that people feel uncomfortable.

 

[lacktheknack]

What kind of bathrooms are you going to where you're getting naked in them? Granted, I avoid public bathrooms like the plague anyway, but I'm pretty sure I'd still remember that.

Now, barring some freaky public bathroom nudity thing that I have NEVER experienced, it is a bathroom. You go into your stall, do your business, wash up, and leave. The only time anyone is going to see anyone else is during the entry, washing, and leaving stages. Where, you know, your clothes are totally on. So if a transgirl hasn't had the operation to remove that yet, what does it matter? Why are we worried about this?

This.

If you're male-to-female, use the women's bathroom. You'll be in a stall where no one can see you.

If you're female-to-male, and haven't had your parts changed yet, use the men's bathroom. You'll be in a stall where no one can see you.

In fact, that's exactly what happened. Someone who was clearly transitioning from one gender to another (it was at an awkward stage where I couldn't tell which) walked into a restaurant's men's bathroom, turned and walked into a stall. I continued to wash my hands like nothing of note had happened, because nothing of note had happened.

 

[The_Scrivener]

So, this is somewhat old news, but a transgender girl (born male) was allowed to use the girls restroom. For me this raises a lot of question on the matter. I know this is a emotionally sensitive issue, so I ask we all try to keep things civil.

At any rate, I will start with my views on transsexualism in general. I don't necessarily like the idea. It seems to me that it is somewhat trying to will reality into changing. I see no reason to differentiate between what you feel like you are, and what you biologically are, or words like man/boy and male. Perhaps this is because I tend to regard gender like race. It is a physical difference, manifesting in your genetics, and appearance, but it doesn't change who you are. I don't think people should have to feel like their race, actions don't have to be "white" or "black", and a black person who doesn't "act black" is still black. Gender, I see in a similar light. You don't have to feel or act masculine to be male. And a man wearing a dress is no less of a man. I find that branding behaviors masculine and feminine in general is foolish. Still, I recognize that gender dysphoria is a thing that happens, and if you want me to address you as female, then I will. Some people are simply happier identifying as the opposite gender. I have no problems with transsexuals, even if I find their choice odd.

But the idea of sharing bathrooms between transgender girls and cis girls strikes me as not being illogical. Its been said that gender is what is in your head, and biological sex is what is between your legs. Fine, I can agree to that. But the segregation of bathrooms and locker rooms was never about what is in your head, we don't put all the girls in the same bathroom because we think they will have more to talk about without guys there. What is between your legs is the entire reason we separate them. As a society, we decided that places where people got naked were probably best left to one gender or the other, out of a fear that getting naked before members of the opposite sex would be awkward, and somewhat scandalous. While gays through a bit of a wrench in the idea by being attracted to their same gender, the system generally worked. But if people who are, biologically, male can use the women's restroom without issue, why is there a women's restroom in the first place? If people aren't uncomfortable with transgender women, or lesbians, being in the same restroom why would they be uncomfortable about men using the same restroom, except to uphold tradition? So Escapists, I'm rather confused here. What do you think? Should transgender people use the restroom of the gender they were born as, or the one they identify with? Should we separate bathrooms based on gender at all?

Excluding the entire bathroom logistics inquiry this thread is asking, I will say that your views on transgender people is pretty antiquated. Remember when bigoted and ignorant people used to use "choice" when talking about homosexuals? Man, those were the good old days.

It amazes me when people can't learn from history. We know way too much about genetics variation in 2013 to be uncomfortable with concepts that people have zero control over. People being offput with everything they aren't used to or can't understand gets so old.

It isn't a lifestyle. It isn't a choice. This is who they are.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

For the life of me I can't fathom why anybody would kick up a fuss about this. If a girl walked into the guys bathroom I'd keep doing what I'm doing because what conceivable reason would I have to care?

So what? Really I'm not being rhetorical, answer this.

Are we really so hung up on unstated arbitrary social rules with no thought or logic behind them that no one unbiased really cares about that we have to keep people from spending 5 minutes at a particular toilet? Even if it made me uncomfortable I'd never rise to the level of arrogance required to claim that my discomfort means other people can't use a bloody bathroom. It's MY problem, not theirs.

It's a bathroom for christs sake! There's barely anything in the world LESS important than who poops in which particular room.

 

[KOMega]

Okay, so I see two options here that can fit into the facilities we already have:

1) We choose a social standpoint where the transgendered person takes the room which they outwardly look like they belong to, considering social norms in dress and physical shape and appearance.

2) We choose a biological standpoint, and the transgendered person takes the room corresponding to what type of crotch they have, considering what facilities are required for them to do their business.

There is a third option, but I think there are a few unique problems here, but I don't fully understand them either, so it could just be my imagination.

3) Washrooms are now unisex. Number of washrooms is now decided, not on gender, but simply for load balancing.

Er, what's wrong with them simply going to the bathroom appropriate to which gender they identify as?

Because not every washroom has high tech scanners of some sort that will tell people if you are transgendered or not.
In fact, there usually is no one checking that someone is going in the right washroom or not.

So for someone to simply go into the room they want, is precisely that. Anyone can go into where ever they want. It simply becomes option 3, where the washrooms are unisex, because the labels are pretty much ignored.

There's nothing wrong with going in the one they feel they identify with, but I'm trying to think of it in a logistics stance. If there is no flow control, then we go to option 3. Plus I am trying to fit this within the way washrooms are structured already. There are additional options if you wish to create new types of washrooms.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Okay, so I see two options here that can fit into the facilities we already have:

1) We choose a social standpoint where the transgendered person takes the room which they outwardly look like they belong to, considering social norms in dress and physical shape and appearance.

2) We choose a biological standpoint, and the transgendered person takes the room corresponding to what type of crotch they have, considering what facilities are required for them to do their business.

There is a third option, but I think there are a few unique problems here, but I don't fully understand them either, so it could just be my imagination.

3) Washrooms are now unisex. Number of washrooms is now decided, not on gender, but simply for load balancing.

Er, what's wrong with them simply going to the bathroom appropriate to which gender they identify as?

Because not every washroom has high tech scanners of some sort that will tell people if you are transgendered or not.
In fact, there usually is no one checking that someone is going in the right washroom or not.

So for someone to simply go into the room they want, is precisely that. Anyone can go into where ever they want. It simply becomes option 3, where the washrooms are unisex, because the labels are pretty much ignored.

There's nothing wrong with going in the one they feel they identify with, but I'm trying to think of it in a logistics stance. If there is no flow control, then we go to option 3. Plus I am trying to fit this within the way washrooms are structured already. There are additional options if you wish to create new types of washrooms.

Er what?

Are you saying people would go to the other bathroom for no reason if they thought they'd not be discovered?

 

[lacktheknack]

Okay, so I see two options here that can fit into the facilities we already have:

1) We choose a social standpoint where the transgendered person takes the room which they outwardly look like they belong to, considering social norms in dress and physical shape and appearance.

2) We choose a biological standpoint, and the transgendered person takes the room corresponding to what type of crotch they have, considering what facilities are required for them to do their business.

There is a third option, but I think there are a few unique problems here, but I don't fully understand them either, so it could just be my imagination.

3) Washrooms are now unisex. Number of washrooms is now decided, not on gender, but simply for load balancing.

Er, what's wrong with them simply going to the bathroom appropriate to which gender they identify as?

Because not every washroom has high tech scanners of some sort that will tell people if you are transgendered or not.
In fact, there usually is no one checking that someone is going in the right washroom or not.

So for someone to simply go into the room they want, is precisely that. Anyone can go into where ever they want. It simply becomes option 3, where the washrooms are unisex, because the labels are pretty much ignored.

There's nothing wrong with going in the one they feel they identify with, but I'm trying to think of it in a logistics stance. If there is no flow control, then we go to option 3. Plus I am trying to fit this within the way washrooms are structured already. There are additional options if you wish to create new types of washrooms.

Not quite. If only transgendered people get to choose which bathroom they use, then it's hardly unisex. If the person thinks "I'm male, I'll go to the men's washroom", strides in there, goes into a stall and sits down, then who in the world could care?

 

[KOMega]

Er what?

Are you saying people would go to the other bathroom for no reason if they thought they'd not be discovered?

Certainly within possibility.pointless to have a system if no one is going to use it.

Not quite. If only transgendered people get to choose which bathroom they use, then it's hardly unisex. If the person thinks "I'm male, I'll go to the men's washroom", strides in there, goes into a stall and sits down, then who in the world could care?

In my opinion no one would care, really, but some people seem to so I figured these three options are what the whole thing really boils down to.
If only transgendered people got to choose, I don't think there would be a problem. But transgendered people don't have neon flashing signs saying they are transgendered, but some seem to want direction to where they are supposed to go it seems.
Some people also have expressed concern for creeps, and while the system is not exactly enforced to any high degree or anything, some form of classification does help prevent this. At least a little.
If general consensus were to go to whichever room you want without any tangible reason for you to go into one room over the other then it is unisex. That being said, no I am not advocating we check peoples genitals before they enter washrooms. I'm just saying logically, it'd be unisex.

Also in this case, I am assuming that the person who feels like they are male also outwardly appears male, thus they have chosen option 1.

Anyways, I am no authority on washroom or social systems so you don't have to take my idea seriously. This is just my attempt to approach this on a logical and more tangible level.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Solution: have a male bathroom, female bathroom, and unisex bathroom. Therefore, if a trans girl isn't anxious about being clocked, then she can go into the female bathroom and do her business with no hassle. But if she isn't anxious about it, then she can just go into the unisex bathroom, where people of both genders will be doing their business.

But personally, if a trans man walked into a male bathroom where I was, even if he was feminine-looking, I wouldn't give a shit. Why? Because all I'm doing is going in there to take a piss/shit, wash my hands, and leave. I'm not so self-aware that I'd be worried that he'd be checking me out or anything, because it's a fucking toilet.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

So, this is somewhat old news, but a transgender girl (born male) was allowed to use the girls restroom. For me this raises a lot of question on the matter. I know this is a emotionally sensitive issue, so I ask we all try to keep things civil.

At any rate, I will start with my views on transsexualism in general. I don't necessarily like the idea. It seems to me that it is somewhat trying to will reality into changing. I see no reason to differentiate between what you feel like you are, and what you biologically are, or words like man/boy and male. Perhaps this is because I tend to regard gender like race. It is a physical difference, manifesting in your genetics, and appearance, but it doesn't change who you are. I don't think people should have to feel like their race, actions don't have to be "white" or "black", and a black person who doesn't "act black" is still black. Gender, I see in a similar light. You don't have to feel or act masculine to be male. And a man wearing a dress is no less of a man. I find that branding behaviors masculine and feminine in general is foolish. Still, I recognize that gender dysphoria is a thing that happens, and if you want me to address you as female, then I will. Some people are simply happier identifying as the opposite gender. I have no problems with transsexuals, even if I find their choice odd.

But the idea of sharing bathrooms between transgender girls and cis girls strikes me as not being illogical. Its been said that gender is what is in your head, and biological sex is what is between your legs. Fine, I can agree to that. But the segregation of bathrooms and locker rooms was never about what is in your head, we don't put all the girls in the same bathroom because we think they will have more to talk about without guys there. What is between your legs is the entire reason we separate them. As a society, we decided that places where people got naked were probably best left to one gender or the other, out of a fear that getting naked before members of the opposite sex would be awkward, and somewhat scandalous. While gays through a bit of a wrench in the idea by being attracted to their same gender, the system generally worked. But if people who are, biologically, male can use the women's restroom without issue, why is there a women's restroom in the first place? If people aren't uncomfortable with transgender women, or lesbians, being in the same restroom why would they be uncomfortable about men using the same restroom, except to uphold tradition? So Escapists, I'm rather confused here. What do you think? Should transgender people use the restroom of the gender they were born as, or the one they identify with? Should we separate bathrooms based on gender at all?

Excluding the entire bathroom logistics inquiry this thread is asking, I will say that your views on transgender people is pretty antiquated. Remember when bigoted and ignorant people used to use "choice" when talking about homosexuals? Man, those were the good old days.

It amazes me when people can't learn from history. We know way too much about genetics variation in 2013 to be uncomfortable with concepts that people have zero control over. People being offput with everything they aren't used to or can't understand gets so old.

It isn't a lifestyle. It isn't a choice. This is who they are.

I understand that gender dysphoria is a thing that happens, there's even scientific evidence that brain wiring in those suffering for it tends not to match their born gender, and it certainly isn't a choice. I just don't necessarily think the solution is to declare yourself a member of the opposite gender. It just seems like a lot of trouble to go through when, in my opinion, people are people, and the differences between the genders is generally less than the differences between individuals. But it's not my choice, so whatever makes them happy. But my point here is that we segregate bathrooms for reasons gender dysphoria has precisely nothing to do with.

 

[Rosiv]

Spoiler

So, this is somewhat old news, but a transgender girl (born male) was allowed to use the girls restroom. For me this raises a lot of question on the matter. I know this is a emotionally sensitive issue, so I ask we all try to keep things civil.

At any rate, I will start with my views on transsexualism in general. I don't necessarily like the idea. It seems to me that it is somewhat trying to will reality into changing. I see no reason to differentiate between what you feel like you are, and what you biologically are, or words like man/boy and male. Perhaps this is because I tend to regard gender like race. It is a physical difference, manifesting in your genetics, and appearance, but it doesn't change who you are. I don't think people should have to feel like their race, actions don't have to be "white" or "black", and a black person who doesn't "act black" is still black. Gender, I see in a similar light. You don't have to feel or act masculine to be male. And a man wearing a dress is no less of a man. I find that branding behaviors masculine and feminine in general is foolish. Still, I recognize that gender dysphoria is a thing that happens, and if you want me to address you as female, then I will. Some people are simply happier identifying as the opposite gender. I have no problems with transsexuals, even if I find their choice odd.

But the idea of sharing bathrooms between transgender girls and cis girls strikes me as not being illogical. Its been said that gender is what is in your head, and biological sex is what is between your legs. Fine, I can agree to that. But the segregation of bathrooms and locker rooms was never about what is in your head, we don't put all the girls in the same bathroom because we think they will have more to talk about without guys there. What is between your legs is the entire reason we separate them. As a society, we decided that places where people got naked were probably best left to one gender or the other, out of a fear that getting naked before members of the opposite sex would be awkward, and somewhat scandalous. While gays through a bit of a wrench in the idea by being attracted to their same gender, the system generally worked. But if people who are, biologically, male can use the women's restroom without issue, why is there a women's restroom in the first place? If people aren't uncomfortable with transgender women, or lesbians, being in the same restroom why would they be uncomfortable about men using the same restroom, except to uphold tradition? So Escapists, I'm rather confused here. What do you think? Should transgender people use the restroom of the gender they were born as, or the one they identify with? Should we separate bathrooms based on gender at all?

Excluding the entire bathroom logistics inquiry this thread is asking, I will say that your views on transgender people is pretty antiquated. Remember when bigoted and ignorant people used to use "choice" when talking about homosexuals? Man, those were the good old days.

It amazes me when people can't learn from history. We know way too much about genetics variation in 2013 to be uncomfortable with concepts that people have zero control over. People being offput with everything they aren't used to or can't understand gets so old.

It isn't a lifestyle. It isn't a choice. This is who they are.

I understand that gender dysphoria is a thing that happens, there's even scientific evidence that brain wiring in those suffering for it tends not to match their born gender, and it certainly isn't a choice. I just don't necessarily think the solution is to declare yourself a member of the opposite gender. It just seems like a lot of trouble to go through when, in my opinion, people are people, and the differences between the genders is generally less than the differences between individuals. But it's not my choice, so whatever makes them happy. But my point here is that we segregate bathrooms for reasons gender dysphoria has precisely nothing to do with.

We segregate the bathrooms on how people look really, not on how transgenders feel. If a trans women who passes well enters the female bathroom, no problem, since she passes, But take a crossdresser/genderqueer individual and apply the same scenario, then you might have a problem, since they can look a bit more, unconvincing.

But its all a moot point really, there are some girls that look like guys, physically, and they still get to use the female bathroom, and vice versa. So to make special rules for trans people, when they number so few seems a bit unnecessary, just let them use the bathroom they wanna use IMO.

 

[The_Scrivener]

People aren't just people though. That's a good stance for equality's sake and for the purpose of rights and all that, but this discussion is more about identity. People have mannerisms, habits, and functions as an extension of their gender identity. There's a reason most of our mothers didn't chop wood and most of our fathers didn't sing soprano. Gender is an identity among our species. These people can wear the clothes they want, they can grow their hair and nails how they like, but if that last puzzle piece still feels wrong, why would they not want to complete themselves and have it corrected? I can't imagine looking at my body and my brain thinking it's incorrect, not understanding the outcome of reality when you're 1000% certain it's wrong. That's a horrible day-to-day thing to have to live through.

Ultimately this falls under the golden rule modified for modern living since the standard phrase of "do unto others..." doesn't apply all that well here in a vacuum: Human beings should be able to do and live however they want in a way that makes them happiest so long as it doesn't infringe on the lives and happiness of others. It isn't up to me to dictate how a transgender person modifies their body anymore than it's up to them how many hours a week I play video games.

And I sure as hell have never felt infringed upon or felt my happiness was endangered by which bathroom an LGBT individual goes in.

 

[TehCookie]

Your parents HOPED you would be a rocket scientist. This is parents HOPING their child is going to be trans - something they have a VERY high chance of getting wrong.

Aaand if they are wrong the kid will be fine.

And if they're wrong about them being straight wouldn't it be fine too? Do you think it's any less terrible to be raised trans and actually be straight?

OT: If you look like a man in the ladies room, I'm going to ask you if you used the wrong door. I don't go in the men's room so I can't say anything about that.

 

[The_Scrivener]

Because perverts.

Personally, I don't have an issue with gay guys using the same bathroom as me, because if anyone wants to take a look at my tackle they're welcome to; so long as they don't talk to me or try and cop a feel. Gays and transgenders do blur the lines a little, but unless you want them to start wearing yellow arm bands, separating by sex is the only thing we can do. Since it's a place I only go to piss and shit, I don't really mind who I have to share it with.

If bathrooms just turned into a free-for-all, though, it would be utter carnage; there'd be wanking in the sinks, I guarantee it.

Besides, ladies, as I understand, only use stalls, and I like to use stalls because, despite not bothering who sees my wilkins, I have the worst stage fright in the entire world: I can't go if there's even someone else in the room, never mind next to me at the urinal.

Unless the only bathrooms you use are at a nightclub at 2am, I have no idea where any of what you're saying comes from. You've already shared bathrooms with gay people numbering in the hundreds and I guarantee you none of them tried to look at whatever it is you want to call your penis in this sentence (you seem to enjoy calling it creative things.) I'm sure it's a fine specimen.