Transgenders, bathrooms, and gender segragation

[Lonewolfm16]

People aren't just people though. That's a good stance for equality's sake and for the purpose of rights and all that, but this discussion is more about identity. People have mannerisms, habits, and functions as an extension of their gender identity. There's a reason most of our mothers didn't chop wood and most of our fathers didn't sing soprano. Gender is an identity among our species. These people can wear the clothes they want, they can grow their hair and nails how they like, but if that last puzzle piece still feels wrong, why would they not want to complete themselves and have it corrected? I can't imagine looking at my body and my brain thinking it's incorrect, not understanding the outcome of reality when you're 1000% certain it's wrong. That's a horrible day-to-day thing to have to live through.

Ultimately this falls under the golden rule modified for modern living since the standard phrase of "do unto others..." doesn't apply all that well here in a vacuum: Human beings should be able to do and live however they want in a way that makes them happiest so long as it doesn't infringe on the lives and happiness of others. It isn't up to me to dictate how a transgender person modifies their body anymore than it's up to them how many hours a week I play video games.

And I sure as hell have never felt infringed upon or felt my happiness was endangered by which bathroom an LGBT individual goes in.

I am very sure it sucks. And as a libertarian my philosophy has always been that anything that doesn't infringe on others' rights is fair game. I just don't quite "get" their decision. Of course, I'm not required to. They hardly have to run all their life choices by me. And if it is what makes them happy more power to them. This is the philosophy that lead me to the conclusion that massive taboos like incest are perfectly morally acceptable, even if I find them odd. But I will say that I find transgender issues somewhat odd, and the idea of gender being separate from biological sex somewhat unsubstantiated. Of course there are lines to be drawn, like the outrage some felt over the announcement of England's new royal being heralded as a "boy". As for the bathrooms, would it make you uncomfortable if someone of the opposite gender who wasn't transgendered in any way used the wrong bathroom?

 

[rob_simple]

Because perverts.

Personally, I don't have an issue with gay guys using the same bathroom as me, because if anyone wants to take a look at my tackle they're welcome to; so long as they don't talk to me or try and cop a feel. Gays and transgenders do blur the lines a little, but unless you want them to start wearing yellow arm bands, separating by sex is the only thing we can do. Since it's a place I only go to piss and shit, I don't really mind who I have to share it with.

If bathrooms just turned into a free-for-all, though, it would be utter carnage; there'd be wanking in the sinks, I guarantee it.

Besides, ladies, as I understand, only use stalls, and I like to use stalls because, despite not bothering who sees my wilkins, I have the worst stage fright in the entire world: I can't go if there's even someone else in the room, never mind next to me at the urinal.

Unless the only bathrooms you use are at a nightclub at 2am, I have no idea where any of what you're saying comes from. You've already shared bathrooms with gay people numbering in the hundreds and I guarantee you none of them tried to look at whatever it is you want to call your penis in this sentence (you seem to enjoy calling it creative things.) I'm sure it's a fine specimen.

What? What are you talking about?

I never said gay people want to look at my meat and two veg, I was merely saying that if anyone does then I don't give a fuck, so I'm happy to share a pisser with anyone who wants to.

Reading my post back, actually, it perhaps did come across like I was perpetuating that stupid stereotype that gay men just want to fuck all men regardless of taste. That wasn't what I meant at all, the whole 'don't talk to me/touch me' is just a general rule I apply to all people whom I don't wish to interact with; I'm not assuming that anyone would want to.

 

[Miyenne]

I don't really think much about the whole trans thing. A person is who they want to be. I don't care what parts anyone has or if they want to be a he or she. I'll call them what they identify as.

As for bathrooms, I don't care who sees me in a bathroom or who I see in a bathroom. We all have to pee. There's nothing sexual about it (well, there is to some people, I know, but I'm not getting into that), so I don't think there's anything to hide. For adults, anyways. We've all seen other peoples bits before, one really isn't that different from another. For children, well... I'm half a mind that if you don't make an issue out of it, there won't be an issue about it.

I'm not bothered when men walk into the bathroom I'm using; there's stalls for a reason. And even women know to never look at a man using a urinal.

Just for the love of... No holding conversations in bathrooms. That's just weird no matter what.

 

[chinangel]

we segregate bathrooms because people like to perv on eachother. guys, given the chance to look at girls, will. As for tgirls...i am one, and I would not use a boy's bathroom at all. I'm a girl, I use the girl's washroom: it's just that simple.

 

[Dismal purple]

It would probably be in everyone's best interest (including the trans in question) to use the bathroom that you physically look like the most to avoid questions and awkward situations.

So if you're a trans-woman and look like a woman then use the woman's bathroom but if you're a trans-woman and look like a man then I would suggest using the men's bathroom. How do you know what one you look like? Ask a friend who you can trust to tell you the truth "If you didn't know I was trans what sex/gender would you think I was just by looking at me?".

If you could pass as either one? Then flip a fucking coin, I don't care.

This. Gender segregated bathrooms pretty much doesn't exist in Sweden (and shouldn't) except in really old places, but one time on a trip I was faced with this. Wasn't sure where to go until I was flat out told that I look like a girl and should use the women's restroom.

On the flip side, until I can get changed in private I can't go to public baths anymore.

She's transgender (refers to herself as a her and such) but hasn't had any medical operations. She is only 6. The battle was over whether a public school should allow her to continue using the girls' room, as she had been, in light of her getting older. Her family won the court case, so even though she is very much biologically male, she is allowed to use the girls' room. Her name is Coy Mathis, if you want to look up more information on it. And the theatre where I used to work had a family room as well. At least in one section.

Hold on, transgender at SIX?

No, that's not the individual's choice, that's the parents imposing that upon the child.

A six year old has no idea what their sexuality is let alone their gender or what even EITHER of those even are in the first place.

It does happen. The DSM have a separate diagnosis for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-IV_Codes#Gender_identity_disorders
Gender identity disorder

302.85 In adolescents or adults
302.6 In children
302.6 Gender identity disorder NOS

Here's a blog on the subject.
http://gendermom.wordpress.com/

 

[Abomination]

It does happen. The DSM have a separate diagnosis for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-IV_Codes#Gender_identity_disorders
Gender identity disorder

302.85 In adolescents or adults
302.6 In children
302.6 Gender identity disorder NOS

Here's a blog on the subject.
http://gendermom.wordpress.com/

But there has been no mention the child was diagnosed with gender identity disorder, just the parents mentioning the child's preference towards Barbie instead of G.I. Joe or whatever.

Also, while a six year old is a child not all children are six. Is a 17 year old a "child"? Because a 17 year old telling me they believe they're a woman in a man's body is a lot more convincing than a 6 year old whose PARENTS say they're a girl in a boy's body.

 

[Dismal purple]

It does happen. The DSM have a separate diagnosis for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-IV_Codes#Gender_identity_disorders
Gender identity disorder

302.85 In adolescents or adults
302.6 In children
302.6 Gender identity disorder NOS

Here's a blog on the subject.
http://gendermom.wordpress.com/

But there has been no mention the child was diagnosed with gender identity disorder, just the parents mentioning the child's preference towards Barbie instead of G.I. Joe or whatever.

Also, while a six year old is a child not all children are six. Is a 17 year old a "child"? Because a 17 year old telling me they believe they're a woman in a man's body is a lot more convincing than a 6 year old whose PARENTS say they're a girl in a boy's body.

A 17 year old is considered adolescent in this case and will be diagnosed with GID in adolescents or adults.

To be diagnosed with GID as a child (or adult) you have to tell the doctor yourself that you are the opposite sex so I agree on that point.

 

[Superbeast]

Snip

Right, you've been going on a lot about this in the thread, but I remember from the time the article originally aired about issues regarding the bathroom that Coy had been assessed by doctors and psychologists - it was not simply the parents' decision. I'm flagging this up for you as you're the one being most vocal about it, but hopefully the others you have been conversing with will see it too.

It is a little tricky to find some of the original articles in the wake of the new story, but:

According to The New York Times, after consulting with doctors, Coy?s parents informed the school that she identified as a girl and should be treated as one.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/skarlan/transgender-6-year-old-wins-civil-rights-case-in-colorado

A psychologist confirmed that Coy was transgender and her passport lists her as female

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347149/Coy-Mathis-Transgender-child-6-Colorado-wins-civil-rights-case-use-girls-bathroom-school.html

Prior to the complaint, the first-grader, who dresses as a girl and is recognized as female on her passport and state-issued ID

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347149/Coy-Mathis-Transgender-child-6-Colorado-wins-civil-rights-case-use-girls-bathroom-school.html

Mrs Mathis said that Coy was just 18-months-old when she started being drawn towards 'everything girl'.

Some of her favorite items included a fairy flower dress with a matching tutu and a Dora the Explorer bathing suit.

'It was starting to be obvious to us that Coy was really uncomfortable being a boy,' Mrs Mathis recalled.

'He wanted to know when we were going to take him to the doctor so that they would give him girl parts so that his body would be a girl.'

It reached breaking-point when Coy refused to leave the house because she didn't want to change into boys' clothes.

A psychologist confirmed that Coy was transgender and when she was four years old her parents let her 'be who she was' and she made the transition from boy to girl.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347149/Coy-Mathis-Transgender-child-6-Colorado-wins-civil-rights-case-use-girls-bathroom-school.html

The Mathises said Coy, a triplet, showed an early preference for things associated with girls.

At five months, she took a pink blanket meant for her sister, and she later showed little interest in toy cars and refused to leave the house if she had to wear boys' clothes.

Her parents also said she became depressed and withdrawn, telling them that she wanted to get "fixed" by a doctor."

http://news.sky.com/story/1107686/transgender-girl-coy-mathis-wins-toilets-case

At 5 months, she took a pink blanket meant for her sister Lily. Later, she showed little interest in toy cars and boy clothes with pictures of sports, monsters and dinosaurs on them. She refused to leave the house if she had to wear boy clothes. After her parents accepted her identity, they said, Coy come out of her shell.

Coy was diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" ? a designation the American Psychiatric Association removed last year from its list of mental ailments. The removal reflected the growing medical consensus that identification as another gender cannot be changed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/coy-mathis_n_3488306.html

This issue really annoys me, not only because it seems people with little understanding of GID and transsexual issues weigh in on it, but also because people, for some reason, overlook the intense amount of assessment that people have to go through to be diagnosed with the condition - particularly for children, because of the idea that they may not yet have a sense of gender identity that pervades society. And it ends up with comments like this (not that I am saying you were going that way, but this is why it really touches my buttons):

Mat Staver of Liberty Counsel, which focuses on religious and family litigation, said transgender cases are "a mockery of civil rights." He said his group got involved defending a department store employee who was disciplined for ordering a person who was obviously male to leave the women's changing room.

"How do you know if someone is really thinking this way or not," Staver said, adding that Coy is too young to decide on such a different identity. "How do you know if someone just wants to go in the restroom and be a peeping Tom?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/coy-mathis_n_3488306.html

So yeah, kids at 6 (and younger) can have gender identity disorders, and it was not simply pushed on her by the parents.

 

[MHR]

I think the 2 bathroom system would be pointless except for the fact that men get pervy/rapey, people think kids probably shouldn't mix like that, and some guys might not want all the ladies glimpsing their tiny junk.

So if it comes to the matter of a transgender person, who the hell is going to know or care? If a male-to-female isn't attracted to women, she's not going to get pervy, and vice-versaly, tiny-junk man runs the same risk of having his junk spied on by anyone with eyes.

Personally I don't support the idea that a person can change their sex. I don't mind how anyone dresses, looks, carries themselves, or gets surgically altered, but they haven't changed their sex. However, I don't give a damn about who comes into the men's room.

 

[MorRioghain]

Hold on, transgender at SIX?

No, that's not the individual's choice, that's the parents imposing that upon the child.

A six year old has no idea what their sexuality is let alone their gender or what even EITHER of those even are in the first place.

So does this mindset of yours also apply to cisgender kids? After all, there plenty of cisgender kids running around claiming to be "a boy" or "a girl". Obviously by your logic they don't have a clue about what they really are and this is nothing more than the parents imposing their views on their children.

 

[Abomination]

Snip

Right, you've been going on a lot about this in the thread, but I remember from the time the article originally aired about issues regarding the bathroom that Coy had been assessed by doctors and psychologists - it was not simply the parents' decision. I'm flagging this up for you as you're the one being most vocal about it, but hopefully the others you have been conversing with will see it too.

It is a little tricky to find some of the original articles in the wake of the new story, but:

According to The New York Times, after consulting with doctors, Coy?s parents informed the school that she identified as a girl and should be treated as one.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/skarlan/transgender-6-year-old-wins-civil-rights-case-in-colorado

A psychologist confirmed that Coy was transgender and her passport lists her as female

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347149/Coy-Mathis-Transgender-child-6-Colorado-wins-civil-rights-case-use-girls-bathroom-school.html

Prior to the complaint, the first-grader, who dresses as a girl and is recognized as female on her passport and state-issued ID

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347149/Coy-Mathis-Transgender-child-6-Colorado-wins-civil-rights-case-use-girls-bathroom-school.html

Mrs Mathis said that Coy was just 18-months-old when she started being drawn towards 'everything girl'.

Some of her favorite items included a fairy flower dress with a matching tutu and a Dora the Explorer bathing suit.

'It was starting to be obvious to us that Coy was really uncomfortable being a boy,' Mrs Mathis recalled.

'He wanted to know when we were going to take him to the doctor so that they would give him girl parts so that his body would be a girl.'

It reached breaking-point when Coy refused to leave the house because she didn't want to change into boys' clothes.

A psychologist confirmed that Coy was transgender and when she was four years old her parents let her 'be who she was' and she made the transition from boy to girl.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347149/Coy-Mathis-Transgender-child-6-Colorado-wins-civil-rights-case-use-girls-bathroom-school.html

The Mathises said Coy, a triplet, showed an early preference for things associated with girls.

At five months, she took a pink blanket meant for her sister, and she later showed little interest in toy cars and refused to leave the house if she had to wear boys' clothes.

Her parents also said she became depressed and withdrawn, telling them that she wanted to get "fixed" by a doctor."

http://news.sky.com/story/1107686/transgender-girl-coy-mathis-wins-toilets-case

At 5 months, she took a pink blanket meant for her sister Lily. Later, she showed little interest in toy cars and boy clothes with pictures of sports, monsters and dinosaurs on them. She refused to leave the house if she had to wear boy clothes. After her parents accepted her identity, they said, Coy come out of her shell.

Coy was diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" ? a designation the American Psychiatric Association removed last year from its list of mental ailments. The removal reflected the growing medical consensus that identification as another gender cannot be changed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/coy-mathis_n_3488306.html

This issue really annoys me, not only because it seems people with little understanding of GID and transsexual issues weigh in on it, but also because people, for some reason, overlook the intense amount of assessment that people have to go through to be diagnosed with the condition - particularly for children, because of the idea that they may not yet have a sense of gender identity that pervades society. And it ends up with comments like this (not that I am saying you were going that way, but this is why it really touches my buttons):

Mat Staver of Liberty Counsel, which focuses on religious and family litigation, said transgender cases are "a mockery of civil rights." He said his group got involved defending a department store employee who was disciplined for ordering a person who was obviously male to leave the women's changing room.

"How do you know if someone is really thinking this way or not," Staver said, adding that Coy is too young to decide on such a different identity. "How do you know if someone just wants to go in the restroom and be a peeping Tom?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/coy-mathis_n_3488306.html

So yeah, kids at 6 (and younger) can have gender identity disorders, and it was not simply pushed on her by the parents.

In light of that evidence I can see how the parents would reach that conclusion in this case.

That being said, without that evidence I would find the situation highly suspect.