I feel redundant in saying this but here we go. YOU'RE RIGHT! If we try hard enough we can pick apart any movie, book, short-story, video-game, ect. ect. We have to look at something as a some of working parts as opposed to each individual piece. After all, When it comes down to it everything is made out of the same quarks gluons and to insult something because it makes us of physical matter is simply absurd. However, are you then saying that we should dismiss cliches completely?
Trope-a-Dope
- Thread starter MovieBob
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That's what I was gonna say. I thought his whole shtick was that he drools over everything and calls everything "the greatest movie I've ever seen in my ENTIRE LIFE!!!!!!!!" So, a movie he hates would be really good? *shrug* Too lazy to go back and check.Kevka said:
Personally, I find it to adds entertainment value to spot the bits of storytelling DNA in a show, game, or movie. It's sort of like Overthinking, and can be fun, just don't be all Comic Shop Guy about it. It's sort of like the viewing equivalent of "close-reading", and can lead to "Well, that's an interesting take on (X)". Yeah, I'm an English Major, how did you guess?
When you think about it, seeing the trees can give us a link back along the chain of storytellers, even further than the Zeroth example [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZerothLaw].
Lest people be tempted to buy into the notion that using tropes makes a production poor, remember, Tropes Are Not Bad [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreNotBad]. Bad execution is bad.
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PS: I was the one who started the Moviebob page. The Overthinker's style seemed to fit.
When you think about it, seeing the trees can give us a link back along the chain of storytellers, even further than the Zeroth example [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZerothLaw].
Lest people be tempted to buy into the notion that using tropes makes a production poor, remember, Tropes Are Not Bad [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreNotBad]. Bad execution is bad.
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PS: I was the one who started the Moviebob page. The Overthinker's style seemed to fit.
"Until the day that they would realize, with unfolding horror, the toll of their quest: That in seeking only the 'original' they had forgone the power to perceive all else. That they would never again be able to recognize 'beautiful,' 'moving' or even 'frightening'... unable to truly see anything but for the dust it was made of. That having 'seen everything before' means you never really see anything again."
The sweet is never as sweet, without the sour. Its a sad day when you can no longer take pleasure from what you used to love.
The sweet is never as sweet, without the sour. Its a sad day when you can no longer take pleasure from what you used to love.
Yes. Yes I am. It wasn't a "serious review" (because of the Bum's ranting style, he started by pretending he thought the movie was an awesome comedy until he was told it was supposed to be serious) but he made it perfectly clear that he hated the film because it had plot elements in it that had been used before. The video ended with the following disclaimer:Kevka said:
"Seriously though, aliens land and we don't ask them where they come from, how they got here, or what we can learn about the universe? We just throw them in the slums? And then people are ACTUALLY calling it original even though it rips off countless other movies? Dude, this movie sucked, that's right, I said it SUCKED! Bring on the hate mail you mother... oh shit, I wrote a lot!"
So he genuinely hates such a brilliant film because of a minor plot hole which, if averted, would have ruined 3/4 of the whole film and because of his deluded belief that the film "rips off" a bunch of other films. See Bob's column. There's a reason I follow Bob and mostly ignore the Nostalgia Critic.
Oh...that's disappointing.Arcane Azmadi said:
Granted, I'll keep trying to find that particular video to make sure, but...that sounds like something he'd say.
EDIT: Found it on YouTube.
...I'm kind of shocked he'd say that. I figured he had more sense/intelligence/appreciation for cinema than that.
I have to admit the people that go on about Ferngully and other animated films were what Avatar was based upon bloody annoying.
Some people have their own views on it, hell, like a "Fuck you white man" movie as one put it. Some Russians stooped up a lie that Boris Strugatsky was angry that Cameron had ripped him off so (it's quite a coincidence that the Na'vi, Pandora and it's climate were used in the strugatsky brothers Noon Universe... i've not read them myself, been wanting to though. Eastern bloc science fiction is something i've found fascinating since reading Tale of the Troika/Roadside Picnic)
Before you can say "Get out of here, Stalker!" at me, though, I couldn't help but think of Avatar when I went to see it as a Vietnam movie for some reason. Or, like Arkady and Boris had done so before, a satire of the current political climate told in science fiction. Because it's easy to hide it in plain sight when there's big spaceships and aliens... fancy that!
Some people have their own views on it, hell, like a "Fuck you white man" movie as one put it. Some Russians stooped up a lie that Boris Strugatsky was angry that Cameron had ripped him off so (it's quite a coincidence that the Na'vi, Pandora and it's climate were used in the strugatsky brothers Noon Universe... i've not read them myself, been wanting to though. Eastern bloc science fiction is something i've found fascinating since reading Tale of the Troika/Roadside Picnic)
Before you can say "Get out of here, Stalker!" at me, though, I couldn't help but think of Avatar when I went to see it as a Vietnam movie for some reason. Or, like Arkady and Boris had done so before, a satire of the current political climate told in science fiction. Because it's easy to hide it in plain sight when there's big spaceships and aliens... fancy that!
I took up your invitation and clicked on the link to TV Tropes to try and kill some time and was amused to see you're method of reviewing described as,MovieBob said:
"Yahtzee-like rapidfire commentary"
Whether that was supposed to belittle you or not for somehow pissing them off it ironically enough proves exactly the point you were making.
It must be hard to find the time to watch all the movies you speak of between being right all the time.....
I find it hard to believe that there truly is a large contingent of people who read TV Tropes just so they can be faux-cynical about stuff on the Internet.MovieBob said:
It's important to understand that when people call out a trope negatively, they're usually calling something out for being a crappy and thoughless application of that trope, rather than just having it altogether. The Avatar bad guy is a flat "General Ripper" -- and, jeez, given how much your typical action-hero movies totally hang on having an interesting villain to drive things along, that's a serious problem.
Likewise, not all Avatar-Pocahontas comparisons are created equal. There is a deep and legitimate criticism buried under some of that griping. High-level story comparisons mostly aren't about trope-hunting; they're about style and theme.
Even if they're not very well-equipped to discuss this stuff, lots of movie-goers do pick up on it. When the average twice-a-month movie-goer says "cliche", it's usually not to ***** about tropes, or structure, or even characterization -- they don't pay that much attention to that kind of detail. It's the whole thing put together, the synthesis of all the fictional and technical stuff. "Except for a few details, I've seen that whole thing before," this person is claiming. That's entirely the opposite of "missing the forest for the trees".
A friend told me that he liked Avatar but that he was put off by how strongly the combined effect of it all felt like Ferngully and Pocahontas; and then, when I went to see the movie (and I liked it, too), I could tell exactly what he meant -- I felt like I was watching a "Colors of the Wind" montage again. This kind of broad-brush stylistic and thematic stuff has very little to do with tropes. When entire spirit of a work feels lifted, that's saying something much more profound than "It's got Hot Amazons and General Ripper". Despite the similarities between the stories we tell, a work still has to find its own message and identity to stand the test of time.
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I know a lot of geeks obsess over Tolkien's mythology and bestiary and conlanging. I don't. That's not the stuff that gives Lord of the Rings its fire. The story has this thematic heart that most of Tolkien's imitators can't achieve, because they don't understand failure and sacrifice the way he did. (Hell, since I grew up after most of Tolkien's world details had become worn-out genre tropes, most of that stuff is just a turn-off.)
The science-fictional detail in Avatar is actually the stuff that makes me feel the most conflicted about the movie. On the one hand, I'm happy that Cameron is opening people's eyes up to some of these ideas. On the other hand, I can't watch the movie without thinking back to The Girl Who Was Plugged In; nor can we really talk about the whole sentient-plane thing without a mention of Solaris. Both Tiptree and Lem recognize the profound disquiet created by the kind of monumental shift in how we think about embodied consciousness and identity that "avatars" or sentient planets would represent. Cameron doesn't even seem to give it a moment's thought, which makes the movie feel like a massive waste of potential -- especially given that the story we actually got was a really simple and one-sided narrative. Jeez, even the kid-targeted Wall-E acknowledges the "Inferred Holocaust" implicit in its setup.
Good science-fiction stories -- the ones with literary merit rather than just franchise-fandom appeal -- take the kinds of detail you're complimenting and fold it back into the main thematic ideas of the story. Avatar didn't do nearly enough of that. The weak central plot in turn leaves all the sci-fi side-stuff languishing in a half-examined state. The audience gets a whiff of something cool but no insight into it.
-- Alex
Bob Chipman is a film critic and independent filmmaker. If you've heard of him before, you have officially been spending way too much time on the internet.
Clap, clap, clap for you good sir. Very good point on the whole "seen it before" topic.
And nice way to remind us all that, no matter how big we get on the internet, we're not that big.
Clap, clap, clap for you good sir. Very good point on the whole "seen it before" topic.
And nice way to remind us all that, no matter how big we get on the internet, we're not that big.
Uh, no. Most definitely was not meant to belittle or criticize, but compliment. If anything, I find Bob more enjoyable than Yahtzee because he doesn't hate everything.ClunkiestTurtle said:
While Bob essentially treats games with the sort of "close reading" techniques that are often used in college literature courses, you can't help but wonder why Yahtzee has a console at all, much less reviews for a living.
So I hit an Analogy Backfire. Shoot me.
Fair enough, i just read it that describing him as "Yahtzee like" was the sites way of 'counter digging' at him for complaining about the users over willingness to dissect and disprove originality by stating his style of rant like reviewing is unoriginal and even perhaps now a bit cliche.GamerFromJump said:
So thinking that was the case i just found it amusing as that was the exact point he was making.
But now you say that is not the case, so its not very amusing at all....
Incidentally i agree that Bob is the better reviewer / critic of the two. I watch Moviebob videos to get an educated informed opinion on the movie and to hear interesting informed facts or trivia or observations about it or the genre in general,and it can be pretty funny.
I watch zero Punctuation because its amusing i don't really think of him as a critic and i don't really think of his videos as reviews and they have no influence of my opinion on the game. They are just amusing. After all he's just one of us (the gaming mob) who decided to make his opinions in video format rather then the usual forum rants and was lucky enough to get it picked up and paid to continue and fair play to him for it!
As an avid troper, my advice is to put aside your tropes and then deconstruct the movie AFTER you have enjoyed it. I pity those who have no "off" switch for this sort of thing.
Dang it Bob, you almost made me lose an entire afternoon on Tropes! That has happened too many times to me before already!
Also, I found interesting parallels between Avatar and one of my all-time favorite movies, The Last Samurai. (In no way trying to say there was any ripping off, just about everything needs justification and clarification these days.)
Also, I found interesting parallels between Avatar and one of my all-time favorite movies, The Last Samurai. (In no way trying to say there was any ripping off, just about everything needs justification and clarification these days.)