Twighlight readers I have a question (Flamers stay away)

[Xenetethrae]

For those who need convincing that Twilight was bleeegh:
http://reasoningwithvampires.tumblr.com/page/6

Anyways, my girlfriend loved the books (maybe because of the whole "blank slate" thing). My recomendation: find a way to incorporate having your readers identify with the lead protagonist without making him/her totally devoid of any personality or character.

Also, don't alienate readers by perverting long-established fantasy archetypes. VAMPIRES DO NOT SPARKLE! If its fantasy, then make up your own fantasy powers/abilities and call it something new.

I'll take my wherewolves Underworld style and my Vampires from Blade thank you very much!

 

[Sovvolf]

-snip-

You basically said above that the two were forced to be seperated, no? Well, I'm not sure if you read the book very closely or not, but we'll go over some key points here:

Yes they were, you don't need to be physically separated for it to happen. And yes I've read the book very closely... Like I said above, I had to study it in high school so it meant reading it quite a lot and quite closely.

1. Heathcliff and Catherine wee never physically seperated in their teen to adult years. The only instances of the two being seperated were in their early childhood when Heathcliff was to be punished/moulded into a hoodlum and when Catherine was forced to go be taught to be a lady. They found plenty of reason to be together and found planety of ways to do it. The only thing keeping them apart was social taboo.

As said above you don't need to be physically separated in order to be forced to separate. As for social taboo, this book is set 1700/1800, social taboo meant quite a lot back then. To the point people would disown their own family (which Edgar does to Isabelle, though for entirely different reasons) over it. Social taboo back then wasn't simply a case of being mocked now and again or having people lift there noses up at you. No, it was a case of losing your family, losing your name and being forced into the gutter with the rest.

Not to mention the fact that Hindely hated Heathcliffs guts, do you think he'd allow his Sister to marry a servant who he hates?

much like the disapproving remarks Bella's family and friends give her because they think Edward is a manipulative dick. Even in the case of Romeo and Juliet, the entire reason they were apart was social taboo, though under pain of death due to treason towards their families was a bit steeper than anything Heathcliff/Catherine and Edward/Bella ever faced.

Yeah but the family disapproving isn't going to get her disowned (though I do find that ironic as when reading through the book, I always though Bella was the manipulative *****)or drop her in social and class status. In fact things like that happen all the time, the family and friends not really approving of the new boyfriend. However that doesn't make nearly every relationship comparable to Wuthering Heights.

2. I've always taken to context of Catherine's quote that you put to be a double meaning. Really, their social status was neither higher nor lower within lineage (as Heathcliff was an adopted son and thus gained lineage through the Earnshaws) and more to do with their acceptance through social taboos.

Did you miss or ignore the entire part where Hindely destroyed all his lineage and made him into a servant out of bitter jealousy after his father died?. Thats one of the main points as to why Catherine can't marry Heathcliff, he's a servant and that wouldn't be proper (which meant a hell of a lot back then as mentioned above). It has just as much to do with lineage as it does with social class.

Take that for what you will and I'm sure many a scholar would say I'm wrong, but then again, many a scholar would say it's an oversight that Heathcliff was rightful heir to what Catherine was born into because he was adopted, yet he was somehow still considered beneath everyone in lineage despite that being an excuse to make Catherine the rightful heir of the Earnshaws because of Heathcliff's reduced status. It just never flew with me and I felt there was more to it because of that inconsistancy.

.... Heathcliff wasn't the rightful heir Hindley was... Heathcliff was just an orphan brought into the family and was not of blood meaning Hindley was heir to Wuthering Heights.

 

[spartan231490]

I can't describe what was good about the plot in any detail because it is the plot. Premise, is the little 1-2 line description of the overall conflict in the story. Something like: "teenage girl falls in love with vampire." This sucks. The premise for harry potter is no better. Plot, is the way the story unfolds from start to finish, the story, all the twists and small conflicts and questions that aren't answered until the end ect... Both harry potter and twilight have good plots. Admittedly, the plot of twilight was predictable, but it was still well executed, and interesting, and even managed to have at least one minor twist per book that you didn't expect, occasionally even a big one. Twilight has merit because it is interesting, and it keeps you reading, which is the end goal of any modern piece of fiction. Read the link in my earlier post if you still don't get it.

Thanks for the ENGL 100 definition of a plot, that was helpful.

What specific revelations of twists and small conflicts made the book outstanding? In Ender's Game it's revealed

Spoiler

he's commanding actual pilots at the bugger homeworld via ansible and the subsequent destruction of an entire sentient speies

, that was an excellent revelation of the plot. Can you remember a single plot point that was ideally revealed in Twilight, because being able to cite OP a time where Meyer manipulated the plot expertly will let them study that and find something for their own writing.

I'm also curious how you found the plot predictable and yet still defend it as well-executed? The very nature of a predictable plot means that it is derivative and formulaic unless you're some kind of undiscovered literary genius. I'm degenerating into flaming... I digress. I would like to know what you specifically enjoyed about the plot, as someone who read the stories. As I thought almost the exact opposite about the quality of the plot.

Though, to be fair, I found it quite predictable as well. So we don't entirely disagree

I have less than no desire to continue this, but I feel that I have done a poor job of explaining myself previously. It has been several months since I last read the series and all that really remains as far as what I remember readily is the general impression that it was a pretty average novel, but after thinking for a moment:

Spoiler

The first book, I found many parts of it funny, especially the conflict bella has with several of the boys asking her to the dance, when she doesn't like dances or them. Her trying to answer, and worrying about not offending people was amusing to me, and I thought relatively well done, even if it was predictable. By that I mean, the conflict was predictable, the exact resolution of each incident was relatively well executed. Bella also often mocks herself with plausible humor, my favorite being the line where she is driving into school when the whether is crap and she thinks something along the lines of: look at all the pretty cars that my truck could snap in half without a scratch. On a more serious note, I thought the conflict with James and it's resolution were well done as a whole. Bella thinking through her plans and how to get around all the cullen's powers.
Second book: Jacob's transformation was well done, particularly some of the smaller parts like when he initially got sick and was overly angry and irrational and almost got in a fight with the other kid. Also, the part where he was refusing bella's calls but her father was angry at her for not spending time with her was interesting. Trying to find out if bella was losing her mind or what was also interesting. I also really enjoyed the fact that vamps and weres disliked eachother so strongly that just the scent would badly irritate them, and the discription of those individual scents.
3rd book: I thought the way she kept the real enemy partially hidden while making you think it was the volturi was well done. I also really liked the way jasper's story was introduced, and the conflict between edward and the other cullen's was decent as well.
4rth book: I didn't expect renesme, and the transformation of rosale into an ally instead of an enemy. Jacob's pack's problems were interesting.
Note: There are just as many for books 3/4, maybe even more than in 1/2, but I don't care enough to write an even bigger wall of txt.

In general, It wasn't the big things that were done well, it was the small, intermediary conflicts which i thought were well done and even if these conflicts were obvious and predictable, the resolutions were relatively imaginative and amusing and it was good. Once again, not great, not even really good, but good enough to make the otherwise sub-par book into an average one. IMO

 

[InfiniteSingularity]

I thought it was interesting and well written, and it was so well written it took me on average a day to finish each one. Contrary to popular belief, they're actually a good read. It's the films, commercialisation and popularity of the series that makes people think it's shit - and the film's haven't actually been that good

 

[jumjalalabash]

I think the reason people who aren't 13 year old girls read Twilight is because they just need to know how bad it gets. That's why I myself have been trying to get my hands on cheapass copies of the movies.

 

[game-lover]

Just an additional question for fans:

Doesn't it creep you out that a hundred year old guy is chasing after high school girls?

No. And really, if this is a main reason for dislike, then I'm surprised no other vampire stories got made fun of yet. Hell, Buffy was a high school girl--albeit bad ass but still in high school and Angel was her considerably older vampire boyfriend.

The reason it's not creepy is simple. He hasn't really aged. Just because he's been alive that long, doesn't mean he's old in the way that would be an issue. His body is stuck in permanent youth.


To the OP:

I personally liked the storyline. It was romantic and had some soap opera elements. I love those. This was obviously not the kind of story you want for action and butt kicking shit because it didn't work there. Sure there were fights but...

I didn't really become much of a fangirl because the main dudes weren't really cool. They weren't badass or all that awesome. But I liked how protective they were of Bella because I like any story featuring overly protective men. It just drew you in because you wanted to know what would happen next. A story's job.

And even though the ending was kinda blah because the resolution of the love triangle was a ridiculous cop out as opposed to the cop out I'd prefer, I enjoyed it just the same. I probably wouldn't go to the trouble to reread it unless I was just skimming to find some of my fave scenes and quotes.

 

[Arizona Kyle]

As a writer, there are a few things you could do; specifically cater your book for a certain demographic, or simply "writing" your book the way you intend it to be and discovering what demographic it attracts (although I guess you'd have a rough idea, age wise most likely)

What Twilight does is find the most appealing things possible to teenage and prepubescent girls, combine all of these factors and then just write the kind of thing they might fantasize about; angsty teenagers being rescued and fought over by angsty super natural creatures, with some kind of analogy for sex, love and sacrifice some where in there.

A lot of people judge it too harshly, really. There are a lot of similar trends I would love to bash on that rhyme with the word "Dustin Beaver", but you need to remember that these things are popular for a reason. They appeal to people and people will also eventually grow out of it so not much harm done. Whatever keeps the kids happy, right?

Problem is those kids are annoying as !@$#

if they would not be as annoying as #$%@ people wouldn't hate (as much) (haters gonna hate)

 

[Neumanoid]

I

I think it works because it's a fantasy of being unique at a time in your life when you are striving to be something different. It appeals to younger women who are going through that period in their lives and older women who enjoying imagining it could have happened to them.

Personally I hated it Lost Boys rule!

I would have burnt all the copies but I'm not allowed into the bookshop after the Dan Brown/woodchipper incident.

You only went in with a wood chipper? I feel that was a moderate response at best...

 

[Labyrinth]

the ability to imagine that you are Bella that makes it appeal to a demographic which is as broad as they come; females, making half the population of the earth eligable to love Twilight.

I dislike the implications of that statement. Gender aside, I and the vast majority of my fellow females have nothing in common with the unhealthiness of Bella's mindset and relationship.

To qualify my ire, let me say that oh yes, one can learn a lot from Twilight. One can see ideal examples of shitty writing, unfortunate Mary Sue-ism, boring and morally corrupt characters and of course, pandering to a demographic and efforts to preach a certain morality. What one can also learn is that it is not a particularly ethical thing to take advantage of the unhealthy cult mentality that has sprung up around the most obsessed fans.

Stephanie Meyer may have made a lot of money. I would hope that most budding writers would aspire to produce something of a better quality. If not, they would probably be better off writing for soap television programs as the pay is more stable and the area less likely to result in the kind of horrible shit that comes from Twilight's devoted fanbase.

You and everyone else who hates this series hates it because of the padding around the plot.

Nope, sorry. I dislike the plot too.

"Boy meets girl" is a horrendous oversimplification which rather fails to take into account many of the social issues present. Lord of the Rings is boy meets girl, for several different boys and girls. The same with Harry Potter, with Tess of the D'Urbervilles. However, these manage to go about that without portraying self-destructive and unhealthy relationships as things to aspire to. It offends me as a feminist and someone with a reasonable taste in literature. If people want well-designed love stories, let them read Terry Pratchett. There are more than a few romance plot lines threaded through the Discworld series. They are better quality, they are healthier, they are more compassionate, more realistic and infinitely more engaging.

 

[aLivingPheonix]

I necessarily enjoy them. It was more like "This is alright, I guess I'll read the next one" and then after each book I thought back to myself "Why did I do that to myself?".

 

[Quiet Stranger]

Just an additional question for fans:

Doesn't it creep you out that a hundred year old guy is chasing after high school girls?

He's also dead, so Necrophilia

Also Bestiality

 

[antipunt]

Many posters ITT are doing a fantastic job elaborating on the details.

So I'll just leave two words here: Wish Fulfillment

 

[Nieroshai]

Aside from being a romance about vampires, this series has a few things going for it:
It is written at a level easiily grasped by tweens but not intellectually insulting to adults. Harry Potter did this well too.
Also, a lot of people liked the fresh take on what vampires aree. Not all vampire myths are about bloodsuckers that are allergic to daylight, you know, they just have to be both sentient and hungry for manflesh. So why not stone monstrosities that are, according to the book, hypnotically beautiful?
Third, as it's directed at tweens, they find themselves wanting to be in the story, to be Bella, to be shown the unwavering dedication Edward wastes on Bella. That's the purpose of a romance novel: to fantasize that you're in it.
Do I think Twilight is the most amazing series ever? No. Do I think it's terrible? No. I think it does exactly what it set out to do, and it's perfectly okay for people not to be into that.
Also, I hate that Twilight stole my idea for the vampire mythos. I was writing my own fantasy story when I heard about Twilight from my love who asked whether I'd plagiarized from the book. Needless to say, I read the series and got pissed about once again not being as original as I thought I was being.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

*Warning, I do not like Twilight, but feel that this is a valid tool for regardless.*

Make your main character an empty slate so readers can self-insert. I'm not even kidding.

 

[folieadeux]

I read the first book because of all the hype about it. But after seeing bad ass vampires in the Underworld trilogy, the sparkly ones in the Twilight series was kind of limp wristed. I do bear in mind it is a romance novel, not a horror though.

 

[wammnebu]

My Twilight Credentials:
Boy who liked them
Never read the first book, started with New Moon
New Moon was my favorite,
hated eclipse
Breaking dawn was eh.then ugh then ooo then eeek and back to eh
Team Edward

Well, as a rather depressed and traumatized high schooler when i read it
There was something very therapeutic reading about Bella's own mopings and Edwards insecurity, Aurelian stoicism, and alienation from the rest of the world was something i could (and to some degree still do) relate to.

Not reading the first book probably helped because by reading in the middle of things i didnt notice as much repetition.
with the exception of Jasper's story, all of eclipse felt like it was a padded intro to the last one i knew what was going to happen, so i wish it would get to it already.
with breaking dawn i had different thoughts about certain parts
1. initial ok felt like new moon again, things were moving it was interesting
2. the sex scenes were akward (i've never been able to read those) so i skipped them
3. the pregnancy thing was god awful it was initially tense, but that was lost over how badly padded it was and the fact that i knew what was going to happen.
it was during this section where i started inserting my own theories, in particular i was watching SG1, and my ancient history/stargate was writing my own origins for the vampires with myself as goa'uld system lord Sarapis (gregyptian god of the underworld) who created vampires during the initial slaving and seizing of earth as my own private gestapo
^this story kept me going when the plot was not, and towards the end after being irked out by the whole "imprinting" thing, i only finished for the sake of talking about it with my friends.

Funny thing is apart from Lucian of Sammosta, Ape and Essence or Riverworld there has not been a work of fiction I enjoyed reading as much as I did New moon

you can pm me if you have anything else you would like to ask

 

[pixiejedi]

I liked the books, totally a guilty pleasure thing for me but whatever. I worship Buffy the Vampire Slayer to this day (even got a tattoo on my back for it) so really anything with Vampires is good to me. True Blood is sooo much better though. It still has some issues with the protagonist being a whiney fickle ***** but its set in a more believable way. I did not think the protagonist was a blank slate to be honest. I really didn't like her at all. I didn't like the guy either. I agree with the outlook that their relationship was abusive and controlling and they manipulated the hell out of each other. I would never do to my husband the crap she did. The series lost momentum after the second one, it seems because Stephanie Meyer lost her thesaurus of pretty ways to describe Edward. The thing I love about it is she thinks this is a dream romance, I'd love to see into her mind/home to see the crap she must put her family through.

Meyer is a genius to targeting young girls. As Moviebob has stated, African Americans and Women are still underrepresented audiences. Being that I was once a young impressionable youth, I can tell you its hard to find something that seems to speak to you. Its too bad a generation teen girls will grow up with the idea that you need a guy to protect you from the world and if you find a guy that wants to you should forsake the world and your future for your teenage libido.

Edit: My reference of True Blood is extended only to the Allen Ball television and in no way representative of mine or anyone else's opinions of the books which are a horrid drivel of bosom heaving and so on.

 

[wammnebu]

[quote post="18.267817.10244391"]Just an additional question for fans:

Doesn't it creep you out that a hundred year old guy is chasing after high school girls?[/quote]

not really because he wasnt
Throughout the entire series he never acted like he was any thing but a teenager
he was moody, broody, angsty, insecure, everything a 16-17 year old boy is

they actually sort of delved into this with the 'cannon' (child vampires and what not) essentially they are emotionally frozen once vampirized

so in short he wasn't 100, he just turned 17 eighty-three times

 

[Sovvolf]

If people want well-designed love stories, let them read Terry Pratchett. There are more than a few romance plot lines threaded through the Discworld series. They are better quality, they are healthier, they are more compassionate, more realistic and infinitely more engaging.

Which is sort of ironic given that its set in a world of... Well Discworld, where swords talk (and don't shut up, to Rincewind's dismay)and Death is a likable character.