Two things I don't like about Western Comics

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BiscuitTrouser

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Shameless plug for my favourite western (CANADIAN :D) comic Scott Pilgrim vs the world. Seriously read it. Its a masterpiece that the movie failed miserably to capture. Good movie no doubt but the comic is another level of writing from the movie.

The books have a defined goal a start a middle and a finish. Actually one of the themes of the comic is that scotts problems dont have a basic bneggining middle and end and the fact the main challenge (Beating up 7 dudes) is so straightforward and defined messes up his ability to actually deal with problems that arnt "Do x save Y you win" which is why it uses videogames as a parallel to the world scott lives in. He tries to live in a world with clearly defined rules and problems he knows how to defeat (By using awesome kungfu) which videogames are because its easy. The author makes life a videogame to point out that, despite scott wishing it was so, life isnt a video game and you cant win just be completing objectives and beating bosses. It kinda pokes fun at the trope of straight line single clear objective based stories where once the main objective is completed everything is perfect again.

The whole thing is actually a really good series on escapism and problem avoidance which a lot of gamers seem to be partial too which i guess is why it struck such a chord with me. If you use this site and feel like trying to read in between lines to get something out of a comic with literally ZERO filler i seriously suggest scott pilgrim. Its a glorious example of western comics.
 

Queen Michael

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BiscuitTrouser said:
i seriously suggest scott pilgrim. Its a glorious example of western comics.
It's also on my list of the 100 greatest comics ever made. And considering that I've devoted my entire life to comics of all kinds, that's saying something.
 

diligentscribbler

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Queen Michael said:
But it's not that manga's shithouse, it's that almost all of the US manga publishers focus on the mainstream stuff. The arty stuff and the original stuff is very rarely translated.
yeah, sorry bit of a low blow.

Manga kind got me into comics and i read alot of it too, mostly Tezuka's obscure work, gekiga like Tatsumi (who's published by fantagraphics now!) and the 80's sci-epics.
 

Saelune

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I don't like parallel universes either, that's why Im a Marvel fan, not a DC fan.

I don't like endings....ever. Like, its something Ive thought deeply about. Mostly because endings don't really exist, since as long as time goes on, so does the story. Maybe not certain character's, but something is still happening. Any story that doesn't end in the end of existence can continue. Perhaps about a different person (if the previous main dies) or in a different style (romantic comedies could continue as a humorous daily life sitcom). But "each new beginning is some other beginning's end".

...I may have gotten a bit off topic...
 

-Ezio-

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Saelune said:
I don't like parallel universes either, that's why Im a Marvel fan, not a DC fan.

I don't like endings....ever. Like, its something Ive thought deeply about. Mostly because endings don't really exist, since as long as time goes on, so does the story. Maybe not certain character's, but something is still happening. Any story that doesn't end in the end of existence can continue. Perhaps about a different person (if the previous main dies) or in a different style (romantic comedies could continue as a humorous daily life sitcom). But "each new beginning is some other beginning's end".

...I may have gotten a bit off topic...
but marvel has alternate universes too..
 

diligentscribbler

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Squilookle said:
The main thing I can't stand about western comics is that it seems like 98% of them are about goddamned superheroes all the time.

I mean come on, change the freakin' record already!
Tin tin.

Herge's a boss
 

sanquin

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Both western comics and manga have their faults.

Western comics tend to get really convoluted. This because a lot of them started out as separate stories, but as the series became bigger the authors tried to tie it all together. Plus, authors and artists tend to change every now and then. As also mentioned, the constant bold words in speech bubbles can be annoying as all hell. And just the general art style can be more confusing than in manga. Lastly they never seem to end. As if each main character has to be milked for dozens of years. New comics aren't made nearly enough.

Manga's on the other hand often have terrible endings. This because yes the author starts with a solid idea. But no proper late plot or ending. So the closer you get to the ending the more filler you get, and usually the ending just feels tagged on. As an example, for a type of manga I read. Shoujo. So many of them end on the "few years later, couple just got married/is getting married, some 'wise' life lesson text on the last pages, happy end." It usually feels rushed and tacked on as an afterthought. Plus there is very little originality in manga. Yes new manga come all the time, but many of them use VERY similar characters. The 'underdog chosen one with a good heart and a positive view' main character for shounen. The "'ugly' (but actually just as pretty as the pretty girls), awkward and naive" main girl character for shoujo. Etc.

But that's the great thing about the world of today. We have the internet. Everyone can find something they like, if they look in the right places. Or at least search long enough.
 
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I used to be a big fan of X-Men comics, mostly Gambit. I read them from 16 for about a decade and branched out into "related" series (Gen X, Wolverine, Deadpool, Age of Apocalypse, etc).

I would read one now if it came my way, but I no longer have a standing order nor do I buy them. I don't know if it's an age thing or what but the interest slowly fizzled. The effort of going into London proper (since there were no comic stores in the suburban areas) and a general unhappiness with the medium. They can be great, interesting and satisfying, but my issue with comic books is that nothing ever changes. Nothing. Changes. Ever.

A trilogy of books has a story, characters who develop over the course of the tale and things *happen*. In comics, Gambit and Rogue will never be together. Rogue will never learn to control her powers. Batman will never get over his parents' deaths. Superman will never deal with Lex Luthor for good.

Right now, if I were to pick up a comic, a decade after the last the time I read them properly, I would bet all the above was still the case. Comic books are a strange creature. They are predicated on keeping a beloved cast of characters immortal, eternal and in limbo. They have short adventures and at the end, it's reset and nothing changed. The character hasn't developed, hasn't learned a thing, hasn't moved on, hasn't progressed, hasn't got something new in their lives.

I read them for a decade before realising that nothing would ever change for my favourite characters and simply lost interest over time. I do appreciate that decades long continuity can be a *****, but the flip side of that is nothing. Changing. Ever.
 

Ghaleon640

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As for everyone talking about why manga often have shitty or tacked on endings, I think its because the system over there basically forces authors to keep going as long as their work is still popular. Once they start dropping in polls, they are cancelled and have to tack on an ending. The creator of Dragon Ball Z wanted to end after the Cell Saga. Western comics on the other hand, get passed from author to author to never end. I grew up western comics, but the realization that most were never going to be an end made me lose interest.

Western comics I'm liking: Invincible, Sandman, and The Walking Dead.
Manga/anime: Attack on Titan.... hm, I need to find something else new.
 

Bocaj2000

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Are we talking about western comics as a whole or just western superhero comics? And to whichever we are talking about, do graphic novels count or are you only talking about serialized comics?

I ask this because what I'm getting out of this thread is that you are confusing "western comics" for "mainstream serialized western superhero comics" which makes you come off as really ignorant and pretentious. And I'm not just speaking to the OP. There's a lot of generalizing and false labeling in this thread.
 

Bocaj2000

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Ghaleon640 said:
Western comics I'm liking: Invincible, Sandman, and The Walking Dead.
Manga/anime: Attack on Titan.... hm, I need to find something else new.
Start looking up some seinen manga. Vagabond, Parasyte, Monster, 6000, and Soil are highly recommended and each have their distinct styles.
 

Lieju

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The reason I don't much care for US superhero comics is that the creative teams change, and all previous character development can just all of a sudden be ignored. So there's no reason to get invested.

I prefer manga, or European or American comics with one creative force behind it. (Like Sandman.)
Sure, in the maistream superhero stuff you get stories where a new creator takes over and radically improves something (like how happened to Deadpool) but eventually they leave and new writers and artists take over, possibly ignoring side-characters and elements that were developed. (Like with Deadpool. WTF happened to Blind Al and Weasel?)
 

Tsukuyomi

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Thandran said:
They never seem to end. Or whenever a radical change happens something happens after that returns the situation to the status quo. Like when an important or popular character dies they always find a way via either technology or magic to revive him. Except Uncle Ben. :p

The other thing I dislike is the whole myriad of parallel universes with Earth Reality ranging from original to upside down, twisted out, our world, mix up and etc. I don't know if what I'm reading is canon, non - canon, fan - fiction, side story, what if scenarios and such. Because I don't strictly follow comics I get overwhelmed with all this. Then I stop reading for a bit until I get interested again. Though when I've discovered wikis it seems to fill my apetite because all of the information is presented in a mory... ?cozy? fashion.

Please don't think that I dislike Western Comics in general... heavens no. Some of the characters I actually adore like Bruce Banner and Mr. Freeze. And after reading some of the arc synopsis they seem like really good developed stories. It's just that these two things keep me from truly enjoying Western comics.

I think it's also why I prefer manga. They have a beginning, a middle and end. Of course they're riddled with their own cliches depending on the genre. And there are also some of them that don't want to end even though when they should have (Hajime No Ippo I'm looking at you - 1000+ chapters) but generally you'll find a lot to have 200 chapters and that's that. Varying quality of course.

Maybe that's my problem... I'm only really moderately versed in Marvel and DC universes because I was exposed to them as a child. I recall reading the Watchmen and quite enjoyed it. Think I'll have to find comics like it... so are there any? I've decided to make a topic to ask some of the posters who enjoy comics. :)

Thanks for your answers. :D
nine times out of ten you'll know if something is alternate universe. Marvel always marked the Ultimate universe with 'Ultimate Avengers' or 'Ultimate Spider-Man' or whatnot. DC at this point doesn't really have anything that I know of, but again if it's AU, it's gonna be listed. Stuff like the Flashpoint universe is literally on the cover as Flashpoint and you can usually tell pretty quick that those are NOT the characters we're used to. For all the tinkering creators like to do, they know that familiarity is also a BIG thing for the comic fandom. I mean look at the outrage when they removed Superman's red briefs from his costume when they made New 52. In basically everything else it's the SAME COSTUME, except no red undies, but that lack was apparently a cardinal sin to some people.

Yes, you do have multiple titles for the same hero: Batman, Detective Comics, Batman and Robin, Batman Incorporated, etc. That doesn't mean that a bunch of those are AU, it just means those are different titles where Batman plays a central part of the story, but each one portrays a different part of his endeavors. the basic Batman comic is usually the Dark Knight by himself, doing his own thing. Detective Comics can offer up other heroes such as the other members of the Bat-Family as central characters to a book, or contain a different type of story than what's going on in your basic Batman or Batman and Robin book.

It's a bit confusing, yes but think of it like this: each book caters to a different viewpoint. Scratches a different itch so to speak. Different people wanna see different sides to a character or their corner of the universe, so there's multiple books to accommodate those different tastes.

Honestly, Marvel and DC haven't really gone wild with the whole 'alternate universe' thing since the last time it was big back in the 90s or 80s. They understand how confusing and frustrating that whole thing was to the average reader. Sure they reboot on occasion, or have some big shake-up event like a Crisis, but when I go to the comic shop these days I don't have to worry about five different kinds of Green Lantern books and which one is the canon one, because they're ALL canon. They're just giving people different sides of the character and his part of the universe to explore. Don't like Hal Jordan? Read Green Lantern Corps. or Emerald Warriors. Don't like Green Lanterns in general? Red Lanterns has you covered. Do you want it all because it's YOURS?! GET AWAY FROM IT! IT'S YOURS! YOUR NAME IS ON IT RIGHT THERE!? You and Larfleeze the Orange Lantern should get along famously....if he's not bothering Lex Luthor anyway...

------------

The thing with everything returning to the status quo is that, as with the Superman example, people tend to get cranky about change. They forget that they ever really called for it when it happens, since there's no way to please everyone anyway so the changes will never be EXACTLY what every fan wanted. There will always be rage and cries to return things back to how they were. From a storytelling perspective this is annoying since one can't see the aftermath of how things happened normally, but DC and Marvel have been pretty good in terms of doing 'after arcs' that let people see how the events have affected their favorite heroes, and then...yeah. Eventually things return to normal. In real life that's how things work.

Granted, yes. There are times where nothing can ever be normal again. There's no bringing back a loved one who died like they do in comics. But...well...in time you move on. In a sense, the status quo does return. You go back to your life as best you can because you're done mourning and it's time to move on. It's a human trait and it's one that we normally find admirable except when applied in this situation.

Sure, when someone comes out in a comic and does a magic hand-wave and makes everything as though it never HAPPENED, that's a ripoff. But when the buildings are repaired, the MacGuffin is destroyed/locked away, and the heroes begin doing their usual thing again...that's not really a ripoff. That's moving on and doing what they do like the rest of us. It may seem strange that some of them don't seem to be as affected by all the big events that just happened but seriously? They kinda see mind-bending, world-breaking weirdness a lot. They're also supposed to represent the best of us. So yeah, I'd imagine that eventually they hit a certain point where you're gonna be a bit jaded. The sheer EFFECT of saving the universe and/or reality is gonna lose some of it's impact after awhile because that is LITERALLY their job and personal status quo. Plus I think if everyone sat around being SO DRAMATICALLY AFFECTED! by the events of each major or even semi-major shakeup in their universe, we'd be complaining because our heroes are in constant angst and why can't they just get over it and go back to punching bad guys?
 

Daniel Janhagen

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The Wykydtron said:
I can't stand going into a story anywhere but from the start. Hence Western comics are a bit of a nightmare to me. The prevalent font style gets on my nerves too. You know the bold on every other fucking word? I hate that. Small example I came up with.

"Hey Iron Man do want a coffee? It's been ages since my last drink"

Argh, it breaks the pacing instantly, like every bold word acts as a new sentence for me, similar to When People Do This Shit It Is Annoying. I suppose the bold is for speed reading? I do have a quick reading speed but the bold serves to piledrive it into the ground for me.
I used to think the bolding was for emphasis, or a guide to where to put the stress, but that only makes sense in certain comics, and I don't think I've ever seen it work like that in superhero comics.
 

glyngaris

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Queen Michael said:
And when it comes to manga, well, most manga don't have a beginning and an end as much as they have a beginning and a point where the creator ran out of filler ideas and had to write some sort of conclusion. It's very hard to find a manga that's got a story that's as clear and told as straghtforwardly as a movie or a novel.At least superhero comics don't try to pretend that they're stories with a beginning and an end.
I know this must be difficult for some people to wrap their heads around, but the vast majority of manga have endings. The ones that go on forever are the super popular shonen series that the writer doesn't stop writing because they are making ridiculous amounts of money off of them. Personally I choose to enjoy comics and manga, both of which offer closure when you go beyond stuff like X-men/One Piece
 

The Wykydtron

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Daniel Janhagen said:
The Wykydtron said:
I can't stand going into a story anywhere but from the start. Hence Western comics are a bit of a nightmare to me. The prevalent font style gets on my nerves too. You know the bold on every other fucking word? I hate that. Small example I came up with.

"Hey Iron Man do want a coffee? It's been ages since my last drink"

Argh, it breaks the pacing instantly, like every bold word acts as a new sentence for me, similar to When People Do This Shit It Is Annoying. I suppose the bold is for speed reading? I do have a quick reading speed but the bold serves to piledrive it into the ground for me.
I used to think the bolding was for emphasis, or a guide to where to put the stress, but that only makes sense in certain comics, and I don't think I've ever seen it work like that in superhero comics.
Honestly it baffles me, if it is for emphasis it goes on so many times per page it feels like every character cannot keep an even voice volume for more than a sentence.
 

tzimize

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Thandran said:
I understand what you mean OP and I agree, but there is a ton of manga I just cant read because the people in them seem utterly socially retarded.

However, western comics is (thankfully) a LOT more than DC and Marvel.

Some recommendations for you:

Elfquest (available legal and free online at the moment, even though its not a webcomic)

Assorted Batman stories, for example: The Killing Joke, The man who laughs, Trinity (with superman and wonder woman), Arkham asylum

Bone, by Jeff Smith

Rising Stars and Midnight Nation, by J. Michael Straczynski

Preacher

The Strange talent of Luther Strode

Y The Last Man

I hear good things about Fables, but havent got around to reading it myself yet.


This should keep you occupied for a while OP :)
 

Mid Boss

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tzimize said:
Thandran said:
I hear good things about Fables, but havent got around to reading it myself yet.
Yes Fables IS amazing. I read the whole series (what was out at the time) some years ago and I loved it.

To the OP. I agree with the death thing. It's the reason I love super heroes but I've never gotten into comics. When death means absolutely nothing then where do you get your drama and suspense? Relationship drama. Since no one can die the grand epic battles mean nothing. It's more about who's going out with who and secretly getting it on with who.

It's exactly like soap operas. Just take out "Coma" and put in "Temporary Death" and add super powers. Walla! Marvel and DC comics!

It's one of the reasons why I adore Game of Thrones. People die! When you see a character in a situation where they might die they might... actually die!
 

KazeAizen

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Queen Michael said:
See, my view is the opposite.
First of all, superhero comics generally do their best to revive dead characters, but there certainly are lasting changes. Take a look at the latest issue of X-Men and compare it to what things were like back in, say, 1990. Things are very different. Sure, some franchises don't change as much as others, but why ruin a good setup? Superman works fine the way he is.

And when it comes to manga, well, most manga don't have a beginning and an end as much as they have a beginning and a point where the creator ran out of filler ideas and had to write some sort of conclusion. It's very hard to find a manga that's got a story that's as clear and told as straghtforwardly as a movie or a novel.At least superhero comics don't try to pretend that they're stories with a beginning and an end.

Honestly, that part about having an ending is what bothers me most. I like my superhero comics and don't want them to end. If Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Bob Kane, Bill Finger, Jerry Siegel, Joe Shuster and the rest of the bunch had used that approach, we wouldn't have any Superman comics today. Or Batman comics. Or Fantastic Four comics. Or Hulk comics. Or X-Men comics. Or Justice League comics. Or Wonder Woman comics. Or any others. That's the biggest problem with manga -- eventually the creators feel that they're done with their creation, and instead of handing over the reins to somebody else to give the readers a fresh and exciting new take on a series, they just decide that we the readers will never get any more adventures with the characters we love again.

It'd be one thing if manga creators actually tried to tell a sraightforward story. But instead they keep on coming up with new villains, or threats to the relationship of the main character and her boyfriend, or whatever, and the pacing of the series is ruined.
I can see what the OP is saying though. Hell back in my high school days when I was the "Japan wins at everything" kind of guy, yes I know I'm ashamed of it, That's why I loved anime and manga more then western comics or cartoons. With very few exceptions like The Last Airbender western cartoons generally did not have point A to B story tellings. They were mostly episodic and didn't have an end. Nothing wrong with that of course. Some stories do have point A to B story lines but they needed to come up with new stuff for new season i. e. Heroes. Western comics are set up like a never ending set of Saturday morning shows with the "one hour special" showing up occasionally. An A to B story line for a few issues with some plots in the background that will be covered in a crossover event. Manga on the other hand, especially the shounen genre, pretty clearly has a point A and a point B. Its just a matter of how long it takes to get there. In that case its mostly setting up a villain and a bunch of mysteries revolving around the main character which slowly get revealed as time goes on. Even if it goes on for a long time though you know it will end and what the end entails.

As for the OP request I can only name a handful of superhero books.
For DC:
Justice, Kingdom Come, Superman: Red Son, Flashpoint, JLA/Avengers

For Marvel:
The Infinity Gauntlet
 

KazeAizen

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TekMoney said:
So you're completely ignoring everything that isn't Marvel and DC superhero comics?
In all fairness if you talked with anyone who doesn't constantly read comics about comics they would only think of Marvel and DC superhero comics. They are just that massive and dominant. We may know there are more but very few people outside the nerd strata actually know others exist.