UK 'Piracy' student to be extradited to US

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SenseOfTumour

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The trouble is, firstly they dealt with piracy by wildly overpunishing people occasionally, because they realised they couldn't effectively punish everyone.

However, consider illegal parking, if we crushed the cars of 1 in 100 offenders and let the rest off because it was too expensive to convict them, would that be fair on those who lost their vehicle for staying in a spot for an extra ten minutes?

That's what nailing someone for $100k for a couple of albums is equivalent to.

Then, they're moving on to just buying governments to make laws fit what they want.

However, I'd suggest, if they can afford to buy enough politicians to make the laws, they're not losing enough thru piracy to warrant it.

Also, he's not getting off scot free, we're saying he should be put thru UK law, for commiting British crimes in Britain, as a British citizen. For the same reasons we're not sending him to be punished in Uganda.
 

Versuvius

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SenseOfTumour said:
The trouble is, firstly they dealt with piracy by wildly overpunishing people occasionally, because they realised they couldn't effectively punish everyone.

However, consider illegal parking, if we crushed the cars of 1 in 100 offenders and let the rest off because it was too expensive to convict them, would that be fair on those who lost their vehicle for staying in a spot for an extra ten minutes?

That's what nailing someone for $100k for a couple of albums is equivalent to.

Then, they're moving on to just buying governments to make laws fit what they want.

However, I'd suggest, if they can afford to buy enough politicians to make the laws, they're not losing enough thru piracy to warrant it.

Also, he's not getting off scot free, we're saying he should be put thru UK law, for commiting British crimes in Britain, as a British citizen. For the same reasons we're not sending him to be punished in Uganda.

Not crimes in Britain. Not crimes on British soil. He should not be punished. UK citizen, in the UK and he has done nothing wrong by our laws. He is guilt, fucking, free. He should not be punished. I stress the point again: No british law was broken. He is british. In britain.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

I never asked for this
Sep 8, 2011
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Versuvius said:
Or...does google have lots of money so it is exempt from things like laws, laws that shouldn't even apply outside of the US.
Pretty much. If you're a rich corporation you can get away with anything. If you're just a mortal individual you can't. At least that's what people think. But it's not like that in reality. All people have to do is unite and violently protest against things like this. I say violently because changes never happen with peaceful protest. You need to take down the corrupt politicians using violence so that those who come after won't even think about doing something similar. And in the end, that's what will happen if they keep doing things like this. People can only take so much bullshit.
 

RikuoAmero

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Jan 27, 2010
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Regnes said:
RikuoAmero said:
What you may not know about this kid is that what he did is completely and 100% LEGAL in the UK. That's what started this shit-fest on the interwebz. He did something completely legal in the UK and yet...he's being extradited to the US for breaking their laws...
So explain to me again please. How is it that a British citizen, on British soil, can do an activity that his government has declared legal, and yet he can still be extradited to another country for breaking their laws?
Honestly, times are changing, while it is true that this sort of activity is legal in the UK, it is not written explicitly in the law that it's legal. This is all based on some landmark decisions, it's a de facto stance of the courts. These sorts of things can easily be reversed by means of tweaks to the laws and more specifically international treaties, which is happening as we speak on a very large scale.

I never said it wasn't legally questionable to extradite him under the circumstances. My point is that piracy is highly immoral, and that whether or not the law dictates it, people who support the piracy on such a scale as this kid are in fact criminals. They are criminals who leech off of the intellectual properties of other companies for their own gains.

So who cares if people like him are getting it up the ass, they're morally skewed people who have actively done wrong to others. Who cares if they're setting precedents for further prosecutions of similar nature, they're setting precedents against other morally skewed people.

I honestly think this has more to do with the current generation simply being bitter with inevitable changes to their little worlds. The internet has been an integral part of our lives for almost 20 years. It came out of nowhere and no government was prepared for the potential it held, the internet was virtually ungoverned for the longest time.

We've grown up with this concept that whenever you want some music you just download it, whenever you want a movie you download it, whenever you want a game you download it, everything is free and that's how we've grown up thinking the media world works. Now the governments are finally starting to get a grasp on things, jurisdictions are being set up, treaties are being signed, the internet is becoming a controlled entity. People will say the internet is a public domain, and maybe it is, but when you go to a public park, do you expect to be exempt from the law because it's "public domain", it's yours to use as you want within means of the law.

Anyway, it's really just this concept that everything should be free that is driving people mad I think. Piracy in all forms has always been theft to a degree, and we're just going to start having to get used to a world where we actually have to pay for our stuff. And we're being treated very nicely for it. We get a lot of TV shows and even some movies for free from official sources. iTunes isn't exactly cheap, but it still makes purchasing music cheaper. Steam gives you great deals on all games, you're almost never paying anywhere near full retail price. Things like Netflix have an ever expanding variety of movies and shows to watch for exceptionally small prices. It's not perfect, but we're being given very reasonable alternatives to piracy, we're just in an era where piracy is finally ready to be phased out.

Initial point anyway, I believe it's acceptable to make such exceptions when our laws have been very sketchy and improperly structured since the beginning, this is what's happening, we're building a structure for it all finally.
You, sir, just sounded like a total prick, if you'll pardon my French. The point of a codified body of law is that what you are allowed to and what you are not allowed to do are written down, that everybody knows what is and is not illegal. If they are doing something legal, then its alright. If they are doing something illegal, then its not and they can expect to be punished for it.
What you wrote up there completely destroys the concept of law. So what if it it's legal, you say, its "My point is that piracy is highly immoral, and that whether or not the law dictates it, people who support the piracy on such a scale as this kid are in fact criminals."
How can you call someone a criminal if they haven't been through a fair trial and declared a criminal for breaking a law? Let me repeat myself: what his guy did has been declared LEGAL in the UK. Therefore he is NOT a criminal. Morals don't come into it. Morals and ethics may come into the decision making process when you're writing a law, when you're introducing a bill, but once a law is signed and on the books, you follow it. In the UK code of laws, there is nothing saying that what this guy did is illegal. He merely gave directions to where infringing content was being held: once you say giving directions is illegal, you have opened up a whole can of worms in the judicial field.
Fundamentalist Muslims say its highly immoral for a woman to walk around without a hijab and/or burqa. Do you think they should call women criminal for doing this oh-so immoral activity, even despite the fact that its not a crime in most countries?
I respect your opinion on piracy, even if I disagree with it completely. You say its immoral to do it. Fine. I say different, fine. But when it comes to punishing people, throwing them in jail, and EXTRADITING THEM, we have to follow the laws as are written on the books. The extradition treaty says that for someone to be extradited between the US and the UK, the activity in question must be illegal in BOTH countries. Which is NOT what is happening here.
 

Sparrow

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JoesshittyOs said:
But mad because he's being extradited? You guys realize that we need the British go ahead to do that, right? Which they got. You people are jumping the gun a little quick here.
Our government signed a stupid treaty which is ridiculously skewed in America's favour, allowing them to do shit like this. We can't do the same to them. That's what people are mad about.
 

funnydude6556

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JoesshittyOs said:
Hey, this is part of what the Occupy guys were about, yet most people decided to shit all over that.
superdevildude85 said:
I'm with Yahtzee on this one, all the countries besides america need to gang up on them like all the bullied kids beating the hell out of the bully on the schoolyard.
So, every country needs to start a war with the US?

Seriously, it's a fine and dandy thing to complain about, and I agree we don't need military bases in Countries like England and Japan, but honestly?

Last time I checked, British forces were right there with the US in Afghanistan.

Edit: I'm actually a little confused at what exactly people are pissed about here. Mad that he's being convicted of Piracy? Sure, I get that.

But mad because he's being extradited? You guys realize that we need the British go ahead to do that, right? Which they got. You people are jumping the gun a little quick here.
We're mad because it's unfair to put somebody from another country on trial for something that is perfectly legal in their own country. I hate piracy, I am 100% against it but the fact is that in our country what this guy did was legal so the US should have no right to take him. The US Goverment has done it before with Gary McKinnon for hacking, even in a case where a UK Citizen has commited a crime it should be up to the UK to decide how that person is punished NOT the US.
 

FamoFunk

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Mar 10, 2010
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Kumagawa Misogi said:
FamoFunk said:
It's bloody pathetic. He's British and is in Britain, therefore should be tried on British soil as a result.
Actually what he did isn't a crime in the UK that's why the US want him.
I guess the US should come over here to try and sort it out them, and as it's legal here, fail miserably. Since when did the USA dictate what the world can and cannot do?
 

thespyisdead

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Jan 25, 2010
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how bout the world cots off all of the loans the US is receiving... i think that the US thinks it can run the world, but it's peek of power has long since been left behind
 

Phishfood

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FalloutJack said:
I'd be annoyed to in that particular case. In fact, if the situation were reversed, I'd be highly irritated by the thought...pretty much on the grounds that the UK should take heed in Neil Gaiman's rather innovative and tolerant views on piracy. (i.e. He sees piracy as similar to going to the library.)
Its so true, I independently had the same conclusion. People have been getting books for free from the library for many years. The publishing industry hasn't fallen, people still buy books as well as borrowing them. I don't see why games, movies and music are so vulnerable when books are not.

I can't argue piracy is right. If you want something you should pay for it. But thats the same "should" as "you should obey the speed limit". The bottom line is that I don't really care if you pirate or speed a little, just have some common sense. Piracy gets scummier the more you earn. Penniless student pirating = wrong, but acceptable I guess. My £90k/year boss pirating = ****ing scumbag!
 

wooty

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Aug 1, 2009
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While extradition is extreme, I guess they see it as the only way to prosecute the lad over this incident. We dont have any strong laws regarding piracy on this floating turd and most courts seem too wrapped up in phone hacking and whiplash claims. (if you believe the media)

This is probably just one way to deliver a swift blow to a case as we all know the US government takes a serious stance on piracy, copyright, ect. Plus the studios where these films were made are more than likely situated in the states......so I guess its easier to take dinner to the wolves than set the table for them.
 

CounterReproductive

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Apr 9, 2010
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How long until an American citizen complains that someone in another country insulted them online and they get extradited on charges of racial harrasment. ? Its a long and slippery slope
 

Suave Charlie

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Sep 23, 2009
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Regnes said:
Honestly, times are changing, while it is true that this sort of activity is legal in the UK, it is not written explicitly in the law that it's legal. This is all based on some landmark decisions, it's a de facto stance of the courts. These sorts of things can easily be reversed by means of tweaks to the laws and more specifically international treaties, which is happening as we speak on a very large scale.
It doesn't explicitly say that having cereal for breakfast eat morning is legal. I must have broken the law every day this month! What he did was legal and retroactively punishing people based on changes to the law in my book is much more immoral than piracy.

You said we're in an age where piracy will be phased out? Well it's been around longer than us and sure as hell will continue after we're dead. But stay optimistic right?
 

SenseOfTumour

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Versuvius said:
SenseOfTumour said:
The trouble is, firstly they dealt with piracy by wildly overpunishing people occasionally, because they realised they couldn't effectively punish everyone.

However, consider illegal parking, if we crushed the cars of 1 in 100 offenders and let the rest off because it was too expensive to convict them, would that be fair on those who lost their vehicle for staying in a spot for an extra ten minutes?

That's what nailing someone for $100k for a couple of albums is equivalent to.

Then, they're moving on to just buying governments to make laws fit what they want.

However, I'd suggest, if they can afford to buy enough politicians to make the laws, they're not losing enough thru piracy to warrant it.

Also, he's not getting off scot free, we're saying he should be put thru UK law, for commiting British crimes in Britain, as a British citizen. For the same reasons we're not sending him to be punished in Uganda.
Not crimes in Britain. Not crimes on British soil. He should not be punished. UK citizen, in the UK and he has done nothing wrong by our laws. He is guilt, fucking, free. He should not be punished. I stress the point again: No british law was broken. He is british. In britain.
Scary thing is I didn't know that, I kinda assumed almost anything to do with piracy was illegal by now. However, they have a good point, that you can't bring in laws then retroactively use them, that's more criminal than the criminals.

It's tricky, tho, I can't help but feel if you seriously damage another country while using a loophole in the law, there should be some comeback, but only if it's genuinely a serious crime. This appears to be a witchhunt based on spurious losses of alleged profits. Not a hijack, not a serial killing spree, not a release of anthrax into the Hoover Dam, but some filesharing.

Amusingly the UK Government tried it recently, there was a protester camped outside the House of Lords, protesting against the illegal war. Because our politicians are a shower of fuckknuckles, they wasted their time and our money bringing a new law in, stating that no-one could protest within a certain radius of the building.

This then went to court, where a judge threw it out, stating that while it was illegal to protest there, he started before the new law passed, so he was exempt, so long as he stayed there and kept it a single continuous protest.

What a wonderful 'fuck you' to the politicians trying to remove him in such a backhanded way, when he's just exercising freedom of speech. I enjoy the idea of them walking past him daily and being reminded.ftheen developing.

Back on topic, I've got no problem with extradition orders, but they should be for highly serious crimes against a country, murder at least, I'd suggest, and also, only if it really can't be dealt with in the home nation. Gary McKinnon is a fine example, a curious autistic guy who only hacked into the Pentagon to look around and because it was so damned easy. He was looking for UFO info, not stealing secrets for Al Qaeda.

I just don't trust the US to give him a fair trial, knowing how hyper they are about terrorism. I wouldn't put it past them to photoshop a beard and turban onto him to get the convictions. This is after they allegedly exaggerated the costs caused by the hack to just enough to be allowed to bring an extradition order.
 

ph0b0s123

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Jul 7, 2010
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Another thread here asked 'why does anyone support piracy?'. Sh1t like this does not help with holding the anti-piracy line.
 

OmniscientOstrich

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Jan 6, 2011
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I've nothing to add that hasn't already been said, but here is the underlying point:

Versuvius said:
Not crimes in Britain. Not crimes on British soil. He should not be punished. UK citizen, in the UK and he has done nothing wrong by our laws. He is guilt, fucking, free. He should not be punished. I stress the point again: No british law was broken. He is british. In britain.
And that should be all there is to it. Unfortunately our obsequious government lacks the gumption to say no to the Americans. *sigh* Que, sera, sera, I suppose.

- Omni ^_^
 

chiefohara

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Sep 4, 2009
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They are simply making an example of him.

I'd prefer it if they made an example out of an actual criminal though for web piracy, some ASBO scumbag with a rap sheet as long as his arm and extradite someone who wouldn't actually be missed.

Kind of like Al Capone being smacked with 200 parking tickets kinda analogy.