"Undateable" Pt. 2

[Paragon Fury]

(I'm making the sequel here because it seems like this might be a more appropriate place for it. The original is here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.861986-Undateable?page=1)

So I had wanted to reply to original thread again, but I kept putting it off and off and off and now replying to it would probably be considered non-allowed bumping. So I'm making the Pt. 2 instead.

In continuing with the old thread; is it/do you think its possible for someone to be so boring/shy that no one would want to date them? Or possibly so behind the current "times" that the same would be true? Because I think that would be me.

The thing I've always been told (and was even told in the last thread) is to think of reasons why someone would want to date you and then go with that. Well, what are you supposed to do if that list comes up empty?

> Average or slightly below average looks
> Shy, introverted, a little taciturn and relatively quiet
> I'd consider myself smart, but not smart to the point where its an overwhelming positive attribute
> Little money, and not a whole ton of hope of making much more even when I get older
> Basically none of the things I like to do are popular with women or very social activities

Not to mention the two "other" issues I have; I'd be considered way behind the times. I don't drink, or party or smoke or anything like that. While I tolerate drinking - but smoking of any kind is something I'd get up and walk away from a date for.

The other thing is that I'm absolutely against children. Period. End of story, not even a discussion point. I wouldn't go out with someone who has kids, nor take the risk of creating any. And that means even a serious relationship I wouldn't be able to have sex, because I can't afford a vasectomy (out-of-pocket, since neither insurance nor hospital financial services cover sterilization treatments) which would no doubt create more than a little resentment. ("Oh, he can't like me that much since he never touches me and won't do anything with me")

Not that it would likely be an issue, since I'm so awkward around people that even touching someone would send me into a bit of a panic - outside normal, every day things. I'm perfectly capable of functioning in the normal world, thank you very much. I mean things like hugs, or holding hands or anything past that. Anything "relationship" related would probably cause me to go nuts from sheer nerves.

But that is all later stuff. Even just talking to people would be more than I can handle probably; I only spoke when spoken to and I try to avoid talking/bothering others. Not that I would have much to talk about that would be of interest; as I said my interests and women tend to be fairly mutually exclusive.

This is the first thing you see when you get into the room I rent - it ALSO happens to be the only "personal decoration" of mine in the room.

Spoiler

Suggested Tags: "Estrogen Repellent V2"

I have a LOT more manga than just that little bit there too; but I left it at my parent's house when I moved out after college because it would've been a lot to take with me. I'm even more of a nerd than the picture shows then.

I don't really watch TV and what I do watch is stuff like.....

Spoiler

Or the fact that I spend my time playing games like Dead or Alive (among others):

And to pile on top of that.....I don't want to feel like I'm someone's last resort or that I'm just getting the leftovers no one else wanted.

It seems like no matter how I look at the situation, there isn't a good answer.

 

[Rosiv]

If the issues are as you stated:

"> Average or slightly below average looks
> Shy, introverted, a little taciturn and relatively quiet
> I'd consider myself smart, but not smart to the point where its an overwhelming positive attribute
> Little money, and not a whole ton of hope of making much more even when I get older
> Basically none of the things I like to do are popular with women or very social activities
"

then shouldn't the recourse be to get those things? I know it sounds like i am being smart, but having a goal to work towards in my opinion makes work seem like less..."work".

You could always set your standards really low too,if physical attractiveness is an issue think of it as only a temporary state, for people can always change the way they show themselves.

I mean your a gamer, so go to where gamers congregate, (game shops?)and chat people up. Even though women are not the target demographic for video games, i believe they do still play them.

If shyness is an issue in this case, just say "hi" and ask them a trivial question like, "Do you have the time, my phone is dead", as a way of practicing.

Disclosure:

I am probably more anti social than you so my advice might be taken with a heavy pinch of salt.

Spoiler

I don't have any friends, and the longest i have spent not leaving my mothers house was approximately 2-3 months. By those definitions id be a Hikikomori(Japanese term to refer to the phenomenon of reclusive adolescents). The only reasons girls talk to be is because 1) they think im Indian or some type of middle easterner, and they themselves are such and want to strike a conversation up, in which case i decline, for i am bad at socializing or 2)Help with work we have to do in school. It becomes depressing for a bit, but i often reflect on something I read in a philosophy book written by a pessimist called the Hedgehog Dilemma:
.
.
A number of porcupines huddled together for warmth on a cold day in winter; but, as they began to prick one another with their quills, they were obliged to disperse. However the cold drove them together again, when just the same thing happened. At last, after many turns of huddling and dispersing, they discovered that they would be best off by remaining at a little distance from one another. In the same way the need of society drives the human porcupines together, only to be mutually repelled by the many prickly and disagreeable qualities of their nature. The moderate distance which they at last discover to be the only tolerable condition of intercourse, is the code of politeness and fine manners; and those who transgress it are roughly told?in the English phrase?to keep their distance. By this arrangement the mutual need of warmth is only very moderately satisfied; but then people do not get pricked. A man who has some heat in himself prefers to remain outside, where he will neither prick other people nor get pricked himself.
.
.
To summarize it: (1) The closer two beings come to one another in a relationship, the more likely it might be for them to inflict psychological pain on each other
(2) Yet if they remain apart, they each might feel the roughly-equivalent (psychological) pain of loneliness.

In closing:

I feel like these threads where people ask for personal help never really come to fruition for the asker. Sorry if that sounded cold, but would someone who is anti social really ever just not be anti social one day? I try thinking of the opposite scenario, where a really social person becomes anti social, and the reasons that pop into my head for that case would be due to trauma like abuse,restrictive parents, or embarrassment. So as a collalary to that, how would then an anti social person become social? The opposite of those things? Whats the opposite of abuse, Self esteem?, or restrictive parents?, permissive parents, or embarrassment?, pride?


Again, sorry for the rhetorical exercise, but I find chatting about topics in general helps to flex my "social muscles", even if they are just textual conversations.

It seems to me chatting is just a way to reduce stress and socialize. Even those we both may be anti social, some communication is necessary, less we become stir crazy.

On the plus side, i remember you getting your name from guildwars :Nightfall,so yay guildwars 1 fans!!

 

[Smooth Operator]

Honestly mate it doesn't sound like you have that strong of an inclination toward relationships, I understand the pressure of doing what everyone else does but that is plain bullshit in the long run, you need to do things that fit you.

Other then that you already understand the sticking points, so if you want to admit it or not you know what the solution is. The only question now is if you have any kind of desire to improve the situation, or are you actually happier sticking to your already set life.
Because relationships are usually a net zero profit, yes there will be many good times but equally you will need to put a whole whole lot of effort into them. You will need to compromise, make changes, go far outside your comfort zone and possibly change your lifestyle completely... plain and simply if you aren't willing to do any of that then this is the wrong game for you.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

The other thing is that I'm absolutely against children. Period. End of story, not even a discussion point. I wouldn't go out with someone who has kids, nor take the risk of creating any. And that means even a serious relationship I wouldn't be able to have sex, because I can't afford a vasectomy (out-of-pocket, since neither insurance nor hospital financial services cover sterilization treatments) which would no doubt create more than a little resentment. ("Oh, he can't like me that much since he never touches me and won't do anything with me").

What's wrong with condoms? Or any of the contraceptives available for women?

 

[manic_depressive13]

You see, the reason women don't tend to like the sort of shows you like is that they find them demeaning and dehumanising. It's like if someone told you they really want to make friends with black people but the only entertainment they like is minstrel shows. Either expand your horizons or expect people to be driven away, and with good reason.

As for the sex thing, you can use a condom. If you're too terrified, it's not like there's a cosmic law that you have to put the penis in the vagina. You can engage in mutual masturbation and oral sex and other activities, which carry no risk of pregnancy.

Everything else is pretty trivial. Plenty of people aren't huge on drinking. The majority of people don't smoke. Most women I know don't want children. Loads of women enjoy gaming, and even more wouldn't see it as a problem. As long as you're willing to expand your horizons and take interest in the stuff they like, you don't need to share interests beforehand. If you can't think of something to talk about with someone, just ask them about themselves.

 

[Paragon Fury]

The other thing is that I'm absolutely against children. Period. End of story, not even a discussion point. I wouldn't go out with someone who has kids, nor take the risk of creating any. And that means even a serious relationship I wouldn't be able to have sex, because I can't afford a vasectomy (out-of-pocket, since neither insurance nor hospital financial services cover sterilization treatments) which would no doubt create more than a little resentment. ("Oh, he can't like me that much since he never touches me and won't do anything with me").

What's wrong with condoms? Or any of the contraceptives available for women?

Not strong enough; and could have an accident. Its really, really not something I want to leave to chance.

You see, the reason women don't tend to like the sort of shows you like is that they find them demeaning and dehumanising. It's like if someone told you they really want to make friends with black people but the only entertainment they like is minstrel shows. Either expand your horizons or expect people to be driven away, and with good reason.

As for the sex thing, you can use a condom. If you're too terrified, it's not like there's a cosmic law that you have to put the penis in the vagina. You can engage in mutual masturbation and oral sex and other activities, which carry no risk of pregnancy.

Everything else is pretty trivial. Plenty of people aren't huge on drinking. The majority of people don't smoke. Most women I know don't want children. Loads of women enjoy gaming, and even more wouldn't see it as a problem. As long as you're willing to expand your horizons and take interest in the stuff they like, you don't need to share interests beforehand. If you can't think of something to talk about with someone, just ask them about themselves.

The problem is I don't really LIKE much TV. Or watch it really. Its not like the videos I put up are the only kinds of things I watch (I watch Ghost in the Shell, Spice and Wolf, Outlaw Star and such as well) but she could come in/around at any time and there is a pretty good chance something like that might be on.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

The other thing is that I'm absolutely against children. Period. End of story, not even a discussion point. I wouldn't go out with someone who has kids, nor take the risk of creating any. And that means even a serious relationship I wouldn't be able to have sex, because I can't afford a vasectomy (out-of-pocket, since neither insurance nor hospital financial services cover sterilization treatments) which would no doubt create more than a little resentment. ("Oh, he can't like me that much since he never touches me and won't do anything with me").

What's wrong with condoms? Or any of the contraceptives available for women?

Not strong enough; and could have an accident. Its really, really not something I want to leave to chance.

Dude, that's like saying you don't wanna get in a car because you could have an accident. Just don't buy Brand X and do make sure there's no air left inside when you fit it. If you never learned how to put one I'm sure you can find instructions on the internet.

 

[manic_depressive13]

The problem is I don't really LIKE much TV. Or watch it really. Its not like the videos I put up are the only kinds of things I watch (I watch Ghost in the Shell, Spice and Wolf, Outlaw Star and such as well) but she could come in/around at any time and there is a pretty good chance something like that might be on.

I don't see how she could burst in while you're watching that stuff unless you're living together, at which point I doubt it'll be a deal breaker that you have weird taste in ... anime. Who knows, maybe your partner would even get a kick out of that bit in the Witchblade opening where she's putting war paint on her butt cheeks. I know I did.

 

[viscomica]

Not strong enough; and could have an accident. Its really, really not something I want to leave to chance.

Not strong enough? I think you went to the wrong sex ed class, mate.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

You need to be comfortable with emotional and physical intimacy if you want to date, and this is coming from someone that dealt with some traumatic stuff growing up. Being in a relationship means that you can get comfortable enough to be vulnerable to someone and trust them to make you feel good. Part of the reason why relationships are so difficult for some people is that reality of opening yourself, which can be really daunting. As contradictory as this sounds, I couldn't date someone that wouldn't hug or cuddle with me, even though the reality makes me anxious sometimes. Expanding your comfort zone is quintessential to any kind of close relationship, platonic or otherwise. I share a lot of the same issues as you do OP. I get told that I'm a "quality" guy and yet I never really end up with anyone, but if you can't be comfortable with yourself or other people, you're not going to get far in the dating world.

 

[Paragon Fury]

Not strong enough; and could have an accident. Its really, really not something I want to leave to chance.

Not strong enough? I think you went to the wrong sex ed class, mate.

Actually....I never had a Sex Ed class.

Also, I don't think those are manufacture approved uses of condoms.

 

[DeadpanLunatic]

Honestly, the no drinking, no smoking isn't that unusual. There's entire subcultures [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_edge] formed around that kind of thing, and also just loads of people who plain don't care for that stuff themselves. The only part where you really are behind the times, as has already been pointed out, is in the assumption that there are essential "female" pursuits, stuff which most or all women do or don't do, find attractive or unnattractive. That's making some sweeping generaliziations. Gender informs such things, mainly through societal norms and pressures, but it in no way determines what people's personalities and interests.

As has also been said, your fear of unplanned parenthood has probably gone from responsible territory into being wholly unreasonable. If a condom alone does not seem safe enough, combining condoms and the pill practically eliminates any risk of pregnancy, and you can add more methods of contraception if you still feel unsure. Even in the case of a freak accident or statistical anomaly, it's not like conception must always result in delivery. Depending on where you live and where you stand on these issues (and also how your hypothetical partner does, but I imagine you'd end up with somebody who feels similarly about having kids), you could abort. It should also be said that there are ways to give and receive pleasure that don't involve penetration. However, the issues you describe having with touch and intimacy probably preempt most of these hypothetical problems for now anyway.

What I'd like to ask given your post is what exactly you want from a relationship. You focus on your worries of not being able to get into one, and spend a lot of time talking about what you don't want to happen, but not what you'd actually like. What needs do you have that dating should fulfill? Are they romantic, sexual, both, or neither? How do these needs all stack up to each other? What's important to you, what's less important to you? Relationships work by communicating these desires to your partner, and you can't communicate them without working them out for yourself first. You don't need to tell me or anyone else about it if it's uncomfortable, it's just something you maybe should be thinking about. If you mainly want to know that you're desirable, it might be you're looking for external validation to acquiesce some sort of internal conflict.

And let me just say from personal experience that relationships fall into place much easier when you've taken care of inner turmoil.

 

[Jesterscup]

In continuing with the old thread; is it/do you think its possible for someone to be so boring/shy that no one would want to date them? Or possibly so behind the current "times" that the same would be true? Because I think that would be me.

Nope, Whats happening here is that ( apologies for the presumption) YOU feel that you are.....

Average or slightly below average looks
> Shy, introverted, a little taciturn and relatively quiet
> I'd consider myself smart, but not smart to the point where its an overwhelming positive attribute
> Little money, and not a whole ton of hope of making much more even when I get older

again see above



So well 'snip to the rest of your post, but I'll try to cover it. By far the most important thing here is you you to be happy and confident with you you are in and of yourself. Far too many people feel they 'need' someone in their life, and frankly thats bad, if you aren't happy with yourself, then 'someone' is just going to fill that gap, and that won't work. If you are happy with yourself, you shouldn't 'need' someone, and you'll likely be more able to accept when someone wants to be in your life.

You list a lot of things you see as barriers, but they are only barriers of your own making. For others they may not be barriers, or may even be positive attributes.

Lets rewind the clock back, around 17 years... I was a shy, introverted creature, absolutely assure that no-one would ever want me. I had very very good reasons for believing so, and pretty much nobody could tell me otherwise. But around that time I started to pick myself up off the ground, to try to live my life. Why would someone love an ugly, socially awkward, computer loving geek, unable to keep down a job? Indeed to add to that I had my experience of what women wanted, and clearly it wasn't me, I wasn't big or strong, or good looking or confident. But I was wrong, on both counts. I'm still not your 'typical' man, but it's often those differences that make me stand out and noticeable.
I'm a gamer? I know women gamers, and I know women who aren't gamers who like the attitude I have from being a gamer.
I'm a drag-queen? some women like my fashion sense, my sense of adventure, and willingness to be different.
I'm a geek? some women like smart.
I could continue.. but I think you get the point

Basically it comes down to this, every barrier you put up can also be expressed as a positive aspect, every single one of them. Someone will come along and, for them, you'll be perfect. Allow it to happen and accept that when that someone comes along, that their interest is legitimate.

Is is possible to be too 'bland' to date? no, not at all, for some what you consider 'bland' is exactly what they are looking for.

Disclaimer: I used the word woman, but it's contextual, I think the same applies no matter your personal gender/gender identity or sexuality, we are all just people after all.


---EDIT---
I'd take issue with some of the advice given.
Be yourself, get happy with yourself. If you feel you lack a trait don't "learn to get it" learn to accept who you are and move on.
Issues of physical intimacy are NOT uncommon, for either sex. someone who actually cares for you will understand that. 'Consensual' means both or you need to agree and want an act to happen. be open and honest, and it needn't be an issue.
I would suspect that the whole 'babies' issue has a root in an unresolved issue on your part, but it strikes me your ( again ) making a make-or-break issue out of something that needn't be. Lets assume that your stance will never move, again it does not need to be a barrier to a relationship.

 

[GrumbleGrump]

I don't really think people can be so boring that they are undateable. Look a Karl Pilkington, the most boring sod out there and he has had a girlfriend for twenty years. This is the kind of person which likes to look at ants on grass.

Well, I know what you're going through man. I started feeling the same way a few months ago. I just felt like no one would really like me, since I haven't been asked out or looked at "that" way in years. I went through some unrequited crushes, one particularly bad (the typical "I have a massive crush on my best friend" thing) which left me quite disheartened. I felt the same way as you: ugly, unlikeable and frankly, like another brick in the wall.

All you have to do is find something that really fulfills you, that makes you feel alive. If there's people who don't find it attractive, fuck 'em! Try your hand at drawing, making music, making videos, writing, studying, whatever. Just be happy with yourself, man.

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

Here's the thing, if you want to date, date. Seriously. Take every opportunity you have. Ask people out all the time. Start an online dating profile. Go out to events you're interested in. Meet people.

It's totally fine if you're ham-handed at first. Dating, like all things in life, is learned. And carries a risk of failure. But if you want to date. It's worth doing. And the great thing about today is: no one is undateable. There's just too many people in the world for that.

Also, don't worry about the sex thing. It's not like you go on one date, hold hands, and BAM; wake up with 16 kids. There's a whole spectrum of activities in-between. True life confessions: A few months ago, I started in a field with some heavy stress/nasty chemicals/general grossness which had the unfortunate side effect of leaving me somewhat impotent for a few weeks. It was absolutely awful. But I still managed to have plenty of physical contact.


And if you don't want to date, that's fine too. Don't be pressured into doing anything you don't want to just. But decide for yourself. Don't just meander to whatever's easiest.

 

[Jux]

Your attitude on dating is a bit reminiscent of mine when I was in my early twenties. I doubt we have the exact same circumstances, but from the way you structure your post, it appears to me that you're purposefully setting up roadblocks to convince yourself that you're better off not dating.

Negative thinking patterns are self reinforcing, and can be very difficult to break out of. It sounds like you don't really have confidence in yourself that there are women out there that would be interested in you. And this is kind a a self fulfilling (and self defeating) deal, which are only compounded if you also have anxiety issues.

Coming up with reasons why women wouldn't want to date you (impersonal you here) is a defense mechanism, it's a false rationalisation that acts as a salve to feelings of loneliness. And then eventually you get lonely again, and consider dating, but anxiety kicks in and you give yourself more reasons to insulate yourself further. This is at least the cycle I was stuck in, I don't know how much of it applies to you.

If you don't mind me asking, these are some questions that you may want to consider.

How afraid are you of rejection?

Why do you want to date?

What do you look for in a partner?


And a slightly seperate issue, I want to address the general advice of 'just be yourself'. I would propose something slightly different. Be your best self. Being yourself doesn't mean not changing anything about your attitudes and the way you act if those things aren't helping you get to where you want to be. And changing yourself from the inside to achieve your goals isn't necessarily a betrayal to yourself, so long as you maintain personal integrity.

 

[Platypus540]

First of all, if you don't want a relationship, just accept that. Do what suits you.

But if you decide you do:

>the no kids thing
Not wanting children is definitely unusual, and will probably put most people off of a really long-term relationship unless they agree. Analyze whyyou feel that way. In a lot of people it's just a type of fear of commitment.
More importantly, not wanting kids absolutely does not mean you can't have sex. Condoms and the pill exist for a reason. This is a separate issue, which you alluded to in your post, and you'd have to address it on your own, perhaps through what I'm about to describe.

The important part, also applies to life in general:
>Everything else
All of your listed negatives come down to one of two things: boring-ness or lack of confidence. Both of these are going to be solved in the same way: doing something. Taking up some kind of new activity, especially one you have no experience with, really helps with confidence and others' impression of you. People value others based on what they give to the world, so to speak: look at the extremes of the types of people who tend to attract others- athletes, musicians, scientists, artists. Basically, replace your "I suck" attitude with "How can I not suck?", then take action on it.
On this point I can speak from personal experience. I had a similar problem to yours until very recently- I fucked up my chance with two girls mostly by psyching myself out due to lack of confidence. But recently, I decided to do something, in my case, learn guitar and (halfheartedly) start working out. More importantly than gaining skills, the act of self-improvement helped me gain confidence in myself; I carry myself differently already and am much more socially confident. Of course, I don't really have a chance to redo my chances with the aforementioned girls, but now I have the ability to not shut down when talking to strangers.

 

[Paragon Fury]

So I'm finally going to respond again to this thread. I wanted to for a long time, but it kept getting put off, and put off and "I'll do it tomorrow"'d.

I'll address what I can right now.

1: I don't like children. Any part of them. The cost. The time. The effort. The appearance. The smell. Or what it does to the woman and the idea that I'd be responsible for doing that. And I don't want to have to take care of/deal with someone else's kids either. They're pretty much not an option in any shape or form.

2: I don't know how to not be boring. Its kind of who I am, in a way. The few things I do like are utterly unappealing to most women. Stuff like video games and such are not overly popular with women; and for the ones that do like them, they have much more interesting options to go with. And I kind of have to face the fact that I'm well past the point where being shy or awkward would be considered "cute" or "funny" rather than annoying and a waste of time.

Its not that I hadn't tried other things; I've just been so abjectly bad at most of them they weren't worth pursuing. Like skiing; so bad at it I'm a danger to other people.

I don't have much to talk about either. Particularly not my job; its pretty dull and uneventful all day, every day.

3: What do I want out of a relationship? I'm not a liar or a saint; I'm definitely interested in sex, but I'm also into the romance and friend part of it too.

4: I don't really know how/if I want to put what I like about women into words. It just feels....wrong for some reason.