Unicorns really too much of stretch?

[Andy Shandy]

I have nothing to add about whatever it is possible or not for them to exist, but I do have a bit of trivia about unicorns.

They are the national animal of Scotland.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Horses aren't by nature violent animals, more prone to flight than fight so having a horn wouldn't fit within their evolutionary track. As cool as a unicorn would be, its just doesn't fit within any evolutionary sphere unless it wasn't a horse at all, which would be more along the lines of the dragon-esque Korean version... Which for some reason makes me think that their unicorns were just a bunch of dickheads...

 

[Canadish]

Didn't someone do a study on this and establish they might have actually been some breed of extinct goat from the British Isles?

The early imagery of Unicorns had them alot more hairy then we have today, and they found some goat skulls with one elongated horn in the middle of their head which might of fit the bill.

 

[Quaxar]

Let me start by saying that I'm not a zoologist or even a biologist so my opinion is somewhat educated guesswork rather than hard scientific fact.

For a horse to use a horn for defence the whole structure of the animal would have to be different.

For a start it would need to have shorter, squatter legs to lower its centre of gravity, horses at the moment are built for running away not running toward.

Then you'd have to reinforce the skull so that it doesn't shatter when the horn impacts something. Racing horses have been clocked going as fast as 55mph and that much force coming down on a single point seems like too much for the horse's current skull to withstand.

You'd then have to add padding within the skull so the horse's brain isn't turned into mush when it collides with the interior of the skull.

It's currently very impractical for a horse to use a horn as defence, they just aren't built that way.

As a biology student who has no idea of horses I would agree with that. A horse can already kill with a kick, it doesn't need a stupid fragile horn. Especially since piercing damage isn't really the best option in the wild, just about every horned animal uses it as an extention and protection of the head when smashing into things. Piercing an enemy means you now got a whole body stuck to your head and need to awkwardly step back to get free. Very stupid especially against pack hunters.

Comparing a unicorn to deer's antlers is useless as well because antlers are a wide thing designed to lock with and block each other in courting fights. A sharp horn would at best break or slip off the opponent's hard skull or at worst kill one or both by piercing through. It would also make it pretty useless for females, see deer again.
Now, horns can also be used to root in the soil or strip bark from trees but that would require different forms of horns and a complete turn of nourishment for equines.

The best reason I could think of would be to use the horn for cooling purposes (like giraffes do), which could possibly be a viable option in the Spanish plains or Arabia but I doubt that would procude a single, sharp and slender horn in the middle of the head.

 

[RJ 17]

There's really no reason that such a creature couldn't exist.

But what brought this question up OP? What is it that whacky story out of North Korea?

Because apparently Korean unicorns look like this...

And I do have some reservations when it comes to believing that that thing ever existed.

You mean there's no such thing as dragon-horses? D'awwwwwwwww shucks...there goes my Christmas wish list...

 

[Arqus_Zed]

Seems plausible.
I mean, it's not like we haven't got animals with weirder stuff on their head.

Hell, come to think of it, who cares about unicorns? We've got deers!

And rhinos!

Who cares about some horse with a horn? If it ever did exist, it probably got extinct because the anatomy of a horse combined with the way the horn is connected to the head, would most likely result in the beast breaking either its horn or its neck the first time it tried something funny.

 

[Quaxar]

From an evolutionary stand point, what would be the point of the horn?

Not used for hunting prey.
Not used to fend off predators (cause what preys on horses that a horse could stab with his head?)

Maybe for mating like a peacock's feathers?

The thing about evolution is that not everything has to have a point. We have an appendix, a horse could hypothetically have a horn on it's head as long as it's not severely reducing its survival rate.

But the most likely reason would be attracting a mate.

So yeah, I see no biological reason that they couldn't exist, if evolution had randomly gone that way.

Evolution doesn't go randomly. If the horn has no use, then evolution will get rid of it, because it takes resources to make a horn and these resources could really be put to some better use, so unneeded structures tend to degrade and become vestigial. The appendix might not even be useless, anyway. I think the current scientific opinion is that it recolonises the guts with bacteria after infection or trauma.

Maybe evolution did get rid of it... I also don't see what's so weird about carnivorous horn ponies...

It's a complete turn of evolution.
http://darwiniana.org/equid2t.gif
Note the long snout, it's a feature of herbivores. Incisors at the front to cut off plant material and a bit behind a lot of molars to really grind it down. A carnivor's jaw is completely different, short, with far less molars but fangs and canines to catch prey, bite through and rip out flesh.
Carnivorous lifestyle means drastically reduced intestines since meat is a much better provider of energy per bite than most plant material. Horses also don't have a gall bladder which means that digestive fluids from the liver cannot be stored and as such larger portions of fat (like it would be in meat) can simply not be digested at all.

EDIT: Apparently I didn't research that properly. They don't have gallbladders as storage and regulator but the liver releases a huge amount of bile straight into the small intestine all the time. As such extant horses could in theory digest fatty meat (altough they'd have a hard time eating it in the first hand) but because there is no gallbladder they have to eat all the time or the built-up bile in the intestines makes them sick very quickly (less than a day apparently). Not the best condition for a horse-of-prey.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but they would certainly not look like any of the fossils we have found so far.

 

[BeeGeenie]

From an evolutionary stand point, what would be the point of the horn?

Not used for hunting prey.
Not used to fend off predators (cause what preys on horses that a horse could stab with his head?)

Maybe for mating like a peacock's feathers?

The thing about evolution is that not everything has to have a point. We have an appendix, a horse could hypothetically have a horn on it's head as long as it's not severely reducing its survival rate.

But the most likely reason would be attracting a mate.

So yeah, I see no biological reason that they couldn't exist, if evolution had randomly gone that way.

Evolution doesn't go randomly. If the horn has no use, then evolution will get rid of it, because it takes resources to make a horn and these resources could really be put to some better use, so unneeded structures tend to degrade and become vestigial. The appendix might not even be useless, anyway. I think the current scientific opinion is that it recolonises the guts with bacteria after infection or trauma.

Evolution does go randomly, in that the individual mutations are random, and then survival of the fittest determines which random mutations remain in the population. As long as the mutation isn't directly harmful to the organism, it might still get passed on, and might become useful to the organism later, or become vestigial. And if the Appendix isn't a good enough example, there's always the muscles we have to wave the tails we no longer have. They serve no purpose, but we still have them. They don't just go away because they're no longer necessary, and as long as we remain a dominant species, they're certainly not doing any harm.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

From an evolutionary stand point, what would be the point of the horn?

Not used for hunting prey.
Not used to fend off predators (cause what preys on horses that a horse could stab with his head?)

Maybe for mating like a peacock's feathers?

... The same as a rhino would?

Why would a rhino have a horn and a horse wouldn't?

Last I checked, Rhinos didn't eat meat.

So horns can be used for defense. Charging and stabbing would have the same effect as a bayonet charge. Get em in the ribs and you would likely hit a vital organ.

I would wager a unicorn horn would probably be the best weapon a fast animal could have.

Rhino's are like walking battle tanks though... Plus the placement of their horn makes sense as an offensive weapon against predators.

I don't think horses are built to charge at things with their head down.

Well I mean look at deer, its kinda the same concept.

I'm splitting hairs here, but a dears horns are big and broad so they only have to have them pointed in their targets general area, a unicorn only has one narrow horn. It would require my accuracy to use defensively...

Also, don't Deer use the horns to like run into each other or some shit? Decide who's the alpha male?

 

[Redingold]

From an evolutionary stand point, what would be the point of the horn?

Not used for hunting prey.
Not used to fend off predators (cause what preys on horses that a horse could stab with his head?)

Maybe for mating like a peacock's feathers?

The thing about evolution is that not everything has to have a point. We have an appendix, a horse could hypothetically have a horn on it's head as long as it's not severely reducing its survival rate.

But the most likely reason would be attracting a mate.

So yeah, I see no biological reason that they couldn't exist, if evolution had randomly gone that way.

Evolution doesn't go randomly. If the horn has no use, then evolution will get rid of it, because it takes resources to make a horn and these resources could really be put to some better use, so unneeded structures tend to degrade and become vestigial. The appendix might not even be useless, anyway. I think the current scientific opinion is that it recolonises the guts with bacteria after infection or trauma.

Evolution does go randomly, in that the individual mutations are random, and then survival of the fittest determines which random mutations remain in the population. As long as the mutation isn't directly harmful to the organism, it might still get passed on, and might become useful to the organism later, or become vestigial. And if the Appendix isn't a good enough example, there's always the muscles we have to wave the tails we no longer have. They serve no purpose, but we still have them. They don't just go away because they're no longer necessary, and as long as we remain a dominant species, they're certainly not doing any harm.

The muscles that are attached to the coccyx are vital for controlling the pelvic floor - i.e. controlling defecation and urination.

The coccyx is actually a bad example because it's really an example of what I was talking about. It's a vestigial structure, from where the process of natural selection has removed the full tail of our smaller, tree-dwelling ancestors, but hasn't eliminated it entirely due to its other functions, like its importance in continence. The tails didn't stick around just because they weren't harmful. Natural selection tends to get rid of structures with no purpose, because they take resources to grow and maintain. Small vestigial remains can hang around for a long time, because these have barely any effect, but I don't think a unicorn's horn would count as vestigial.

 

[Lionsfan]

There's really no reason that such a creature couldn't exist.

But what brought this question up OP? What is it that whacky story out of North Korea?

Because apparently Korean unicorns look like this...

And I do have some reservations when it comes to believing that that thing ever existed.

Oh so just because a horse is green or blue you think it's impossible to exist? You colorist's make me sick...


As for the OP, I'm gonna go with what other people are saying here. It just doesn't make much sense with the way the Horse is designed. A horn like that on a Unicorn would probably be single use

 

[Quaxar]

I'm not saying it's impossible, but they would certainly not look like any of the fossils we have found so far.

damn, why cant we have eohippi instead of cats

Well, a <url=http://media-cache-ec6.pinterest.com/upload/50806302016678299_yroSf5Oj_b.jpg>miniature horse breed with dwarfism isn't that far off although still a bit taller.

But I personally like Pliohippus, it looks like a sporty donkey wearing a zebra pajama bottom.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Pliohippus.jpg/800px-Pliohippus.jpg

 

[Hunter.Wolf]

Well well, it's not entirely impossible for a Unicorn to exist .. from a biological point of view it could have been a breed of horses that got extinct due to being hunted for their beautiful long ivory horns .. it's a very plausible theory. IMO.

As for what they might have used them for .. well .. some people said they can't use them as deers (for establishing male dominance), but Narwhals beg to differ .. if anything they are the closest thing to a unicorn (despite being whales) in terms of how unicorns could have used their horns .. Narwhals use their horns for the same exact purpose that deers use their horns for ... they don't stab each other .. they just clash their "tusks" together just like two gentlemen fencing with swords ---> From Wikipedia "At times, Narwhals rub their tusks together in an activity called "tusking". This behavior is thought to maintain social dominance hierarchies". .. not to mention .. Narwhals were linked to unicorns in legends and myths.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Narwal_brehm.jpg

 

[Coppernerves]

I'm splitting hairs here, but a dears horns are big and broad so they only have to have them pointed in their targets general area, a unicorn only has one narrow horn. It would require my accuracy to use defensively...

Also, don't Deer use the horns to like run into each other or some shit? Decide who's the alpha male?

If unicorns lived in herds, fighting with sharp horns would be a bad idea, because they'd kill each other, and hey, safety in numbers right?

Horses are perfectly capable of a good kick when cornered, so they'd only need a horn for predators too high up, like griffins for example.

 

[TIMESWORDSMAN]

From an evolutionary stand point, what would be the point of the horn?

Not used for hunting prey.
Not used to fend off predators (cause what preys on horses that a horse could stab with his head?)

Maybe for mating like a peacock's feathers?

Perhaps they could have been used by males to joust in order to determine who would mate with a female. This is a practice still used by cervidae, and it doesn't seem a stretch that ungulates could have employed it in some evolutionary off-branch.

 

[emeraldrafael]

From an evolutionary stand point, what would be the point of the horn?

Not used for hunting prey.
Not used to fend off predators (cause what preys on horses that a horse could stab with his head?)

Maybe for mating like a peacock's feathers?

The thing about evolution is that not everything has to have a point. We have an appendix, a horse could hypothetically have a horn on it's head as long as it's not severely reducing its survival rate.

But the most likely reason would be attracting a mate.

So yeah, I see no biological reason that they couldn't exist, if evolution had randomly gone that way.

its thought the appendix was used bacck before we were civilized and nowadays it just sits around, like the tonsils.

OT: outside of a bone spur or something ijust dont see why a horse would have a horn and how it would survive in the world with it to breed. I mean anythings possible, but I dont think one would exist in large numbers. especially with people who would wnat ot poach and kill it for the horn, cause lets be honest, you find out a Unicorn is real, and then you can actually have a real unicorn horn, and that horse is fucked.

EDIT:

Well well, it's not entirely impossible for a Unicorn to exist .. from a biological point of view it could have been a breed of horses that got extinct due to being hunted for their beautiful long ivory horns .. it's a very plausible theory. IMO.

As for what they might have used them for .. well .. some people said they can't use them as deers (for establishing male dominance), but Narwhals beg to differ .. if anything they are the closest thing to a unicorn (despite being whales) in terms of how unicorns could have used their horns .. Narwhals use their horns for the same exact purpose that deers use their horns for ... they don't stab each other .. they just clash their "tusks" together just like two gentlemen fencing with swords ---> From Wikipedia "At times, Narwhals rub their tusks together in an activity called "tusking". This behavior is thought to maintain social dominance hierarchies". .. not to mention .. Narwhals were linked to unicorns in legends and myths.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Narwal_brehm.jpg

The thing with a narwhal is their "horns" are usually pretty large. they're what, 2 ft+ long, and narwhals live int he water so (even though tehy're hollow) its a lot easier to move and maintain. So Narwhal is never in any particular danger of being injured outside of getting too close. You give a horse a horn its going ot have to be shorter, and then you run the risk of serious damage to the skull even just be them tangling and heads hitting. Deer antler are different in that they grow and point away in a cradle type shape, so you catch in them and protect the head.

 

[SinisterDeath]

So, just wanted to point out, that just because a feature has no normal use, doesn't mean it will simply not get carried on, or become vestigial.

If a feature (a horn) is harmful to its mating, and carrying on said genetics, it'll fade. If longer horns, are a hazard, and shorter make for a more likely possibility that its offspring will survive, then eventually said horns will probably become smaller over several thousand generations.
But if Horns don't impact the mating in any way, or its survival, then it'll stick, virtually unchanged.

Also.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0okllm4ZB1r6d5p2o1_1280.jpg
Narwhal's show that a single horn(tusk), on the head(mouht) of an animal, does infact, exist.