USA health system... umm... what the hell?!

[Lord Beautiful]

*massive snip*

And once again, Therumancer fails to disappoint with yet another post that leaves nothing left to be said short of "/thread."

I look forward to your next post.

 

[scott91575]

don't expect people to invest $20,000 dollars worth of equipment, space, and time, into your surgery if you can't compensate them for it.

It's called your fricken taxes, dude. If your taxes aren't getting you quality health care, OR getting you a proper government watchdog so that when you get sick health insurance actually does what it's there to do rather than abandon you because you didn't take the superplus plan...

then what the hell is your tax money going to anyways?

Average worker income tax rates in the US are much lower than countries with socialized medicine. Only Switzerland has a lower tax rate, which has a model that the US is looking into implementing....requiring people to purchase health care at a percentage based on your annual income (in fact, some US states are already implementing this). This eliminates the biggest problem, uninsured, while still keeping a competitive marketplace.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Whenever people bring it up, Insurance lobbyists cry that it will cause people to wait years for their major surgeries, people won't be able to choose their own doctors, and it will cause our best doctors to flee the country. People actually believe them too.

Fear Tactics FTW.

Said lobbyists are almost exclusively lawyers and advocates for lawyers; people who can already afford premium healthcare plans without it significantly impacting their financial future.
And their evidence is fairly compelling on paper: Healthcare costs are sky-high because of malpractice suits. But then you realize who is lobbying against change, and the implications become clear.

People use the term "Ambulence chasers" but when you look at just how involved lawyers are in health care (in the United States), it's downright scary.
I knew someone who did something incredibly stupid, injured himself to the point where he needed to be hospitalized. His bill was over $100k USD just for three day stay. How did he not go bankrupt? He sued the owners of the property where he injured himself, and in a stunning display of legal idiocy (my opinion), actually ended up getting the money to pay for his health care from them.

His lawyer argued with their lawyers, and then their lawyers argued with the lawyers of the insurance companies to see who would pay what. So who really won out there? The lawyers.
The hospital's primary charge was to *their* insurance company (against malpractice), who passed it onto this person (who ended up paying his lawyer 20k; almost entirely money from the suit claims).

It's difficult for me to see how anything can get done when lawyers run everything, and then they demand a huge amount of money for each step along the way.
Fear of lawsuits drove health care costs up (and then they changed the law so you could sue your HMOs; more business for the lawyers), and as a result, drove up the costs of insurance.

 

[superstringz]

I was studying to go into the medical field under the hopes obamacare would pass. Since it didn't, I've opted for nuclear engineering instead, because fuck me if I have to tell someone I can't save their life if they aren't rich.

 

[gyroscopeboy]

No country anywhere has free healthcare, you just pay for it now instead of later. There's a reason taxes in the United States are among the lowest in the world, while medical bills here are through the roof.

In Australia we may have higher taxes..but our minimum wage is much higher so it sort of balances out.

All i can say is thank God for travel insurance! My friend broke her back bungie jumping in the US and if it weren't for travel insurance, her medical bill was creeping up on $1 million...

 

[newfoundsky]

In the insurance companies defense, they think all we have to do is hide behind cover to get better.

OT:

The issue is the illegal immigrants not paying their hospital bills. Well, mostly, its people just not paying their hospital bills, which make costs rise.

 

[TheDutchin]

The other potential issue is that some operations have absurdly long waiting lists, so if you get backed up for two years for something that's going to kill you in six months, you're as shit out of luck there as if you get slammed with a $50,000 bill here. Basically you can die because you couldn't afford it, or you can die because you couldn't get the operation in time. Take your pick.

Except that people aren't that dumb, obviously they wouldn't say "Well he needs this minor operation done, and this guy needs a life saving operation done within 6 months. Well the guy who needs the minor operation was here first so I guess he is SOL". Think about things before you say them ktnx

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Lucky!
This year I had my 4 wisdom teeth removed and the bill was over $600! Oh, and that's after the insurance!
At age 18 I got a pair of glasses for just reading. Over $170! You are lucky

I can understand this one, holy crap. I didn't pay it myself, but when I was an infant I had really really bad ear infections. Had both ears with tubes and lots of antibiotics.

The only way I've gotten around this sort of thing is, sadly enough, by joining the military. Its the only source of free healthcare for the average american citizen. It just requires a bit more than a monthly premium.

I just wanted to say that, as a random american citizen, I thank you for your service to our home. You sir (sir can apparently be used for a man or a women so I don't "have to" add "or madam") deserve that health care.

 

[Pyramid Head]

I'm not sure if you ever saw the official ratings, but the World Health Organization considers some developing nations to have superior health care systems to America due to this bullshit. Our private insurance system is a sick fucking joke with the punchline being some stupid fucking people genuinely believe it's more effective than public insurance options or single-payer health care.
This country is dominated by the wealthiest 1%, and political stagnation will keep that from changing anytime soon. I thank fuck that some people haven't forgotten the concept of charity and saved a victim of the broken system.

 

[DracoSuave]

don't expect people to invest $20,000 dollars worth of equipment, space, and time, into your surgery if you can't compensate them for it.

It's called your fricken taxes, dude. If your taxes aren't getting you quality health care, OR getting you a proper government watchdog so that when you get sick health insurance actually does what it's there to do rather than abandon you because you didn't take the superplus plan...

then what the hell is your tax money going to anyways?

Average worker income tax rates in the US are much lower than countries with socialized medicine. Only Switzerland has a lower tax rate, which has a model that the US is looking into implementing....requiring people to purchase health care at a percentage based on your annual income (in fact, some US states are already implementing this). This eliminates the biggest problem, uninsured, while still keeping a competitive marketplace.

The biggest problem isn't the uninsured. It's the underinsured led to believe they are insured. It's when you think you're buying something, and getting something else.

Regardless, US tax dollars pay more per capita into health care than any other country, but the people do not receive more care for those dollars. The system is bloated and corrupt, and that's the problem.

It's worth higher taxes to pay nothing for your health care. Ask how much those lower taxes are going to help someone who has to foot a 10,000 dollar bill because their insurance company actually has been given the right to say 'pre-existing condition'?

If you're not paying the taxes, at least there needs to be oversight to hold insurance companies to minimum, fair, standards of required service.

 

[Phoenix Arrow]

English System - Everything is free, but they'll put off doing small things unless they get worse AKA a small skin cyst isn't an issue (out of sight) unless it changes over time, which they would THEN do the surgery on.

...what? No.
Despite everything you've heard or read in the papers, the NHS is fucking fantastic. One of the best in the world. They scare up stories of people having to wait months to get a treatment and gloss over the MILLIONS of lives that have been saved by the healthcare we have in this country. People who could not afford to get treatment without it.
In fact, the only problem with the NHS is they don't pay the nurses anywhere near what they deserve to get.

 

[viking97]

It's pretty sad that a lot of the American stereotype is true.

PS:I live in the USA.

seconded. i've seen people go into hysterics when i suggest that FUCKING FREE MEDICINE might be a good thing.

Because it isn't free. Someone always pays. Just because it's not you doesn't mean a damn thing. The crux of your argument is that someone else, somewhere else, is obligated to work, to spend hours of his life to make yours better in some way.

except, i pay taxes too. everyone does. that's kind of the point.

 

[scott91575]

No country anywhere has free healthcare, you just pay for it now instead of later. There's a reason taxes in the United States are among the lowest in the world, while medical bills here are through the roof.

In Australia we may have higher taxes..but our minimum wage is much higher so it sort of balances out.

All i can say is thank God for travel insurance! My friend broke her back bungie jumping in the US and if it weren't for travel insurance, her medical bill was creeping up on $1 million...

Minimum wage doesn't average out anything. People over the age of 25 (around the point you are no longer eligible under a parents health care) and making minimum wage only make up 3% of the work force. That in no way balances out higher taxes.

 

[EbonBehelit]

How many Americans think 9/11 was a government conspiracy?
How many Americans think vaccines cause autism?
How many Americans think the moon landing was a hoax?
How many think global warming is a hoax?

Flame me as much as you'd like, but I still believe 9/11 was a hoax, and that Global Warming is not primarily a man-caused phenomenon (though we still pollute far too much). I've weighed up both sides of each argument, and made my own decisions on the subjects.

I'm Australian btw.

I hear horror stories about US healthcare all the time - makes me thankful about the system we have here - not perfect of course but quite good.

 

[scott91575]

don't expect people to invest $20,000 dollars worth of equipment, space, and time, into your surgery if you can't compensate them for it.

It's called your fricken taxes, dude. If your taxes aren't getting you quality health care, OR getting you a proper government watchdog so that when you get sick health insurance actually does what it's there to do rather than abandon you because you didn't take the superplus plan...

then what the hell is your tax money going to anyways?

Average worker income tax rates in the US are much lower than countries with socialized medicine. Only Switzerland has a lower tax rate, which has a model that the US is looking into implementing....requiring people to purchase health care at a percentage based on your annual income (in fact, some US states are already implementing this). This eliminates the biggest problem, uninsured, while still keeping a competitive marketplace.

Regardless, US tax dollars pay more per capita into health care than any other country, but the people do not receive more care for those dollars. The system is bloated and corrupt, and that's the problem.

It's worth higher taxes to pay nothing for your health care. Ask how much those lower taxes are going to help someone who has to foot a 10,000 dollar bill because their insurance company actually has been given the right to say 'pre-existing condition'?

If you're not paying the taxes, at least there needs to be oversight to hold insurance companies to minimum, fair, standards of required service.

I don't disagree cost is part of the issue. A combination of inelastic demand and high GDP has caused that, and certainly needs to be a part of any solution.

 

[spartan231490]

(The dreaded wall-o-text lurks below. I tried to keep it as concise and readable as possible. No, really, I did.)

Let me make one thing clear right off the bat. I am not from the US. I'm Australian. Therefore, I have no personal stake in this. I am not really trying to make any particular argument, one way or another. My interest in this matter is mostly...well, I suppose the most appropriate term would be "anthropological".

Just try to bear that in mind when you respond. Please.

So... I'm guessing that everyone here has heard about the medical dramas involving the artist of the Escapist's own Extra Credits show [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/111418-Extra-Credits-Artist-Amazed-at-Fan-Support]. Long story short, she sustained injury to her shoulders. Quite a lot of injury. If untreated, she could lose the use of her arms. (Just take a brief moment to dwell on the various delightful implications of not being able to use your own arms.) Now, in order to receive the required treatments, she had to come up with a large amount of money. Somewhere around $20,000 USD. No, that's not a typo. Yes, we're talking one thousand dollars, twenty times over. And just to make it all better, her private medical insurance refused to pay out. (What's that? An insurance company weaseling out of having to pony up the cash? Well, I never... who would have thought, eh?)

Luckily they managed to organize a lightning fundraiser that resulted in a ridiculous amount of money being generated in a ridiculously short time [http://rockethub.com/projects/2165-extra-credits]. It was all rather heartwarmingly awesome.

But hang on one second. Let me just back up a few sentences. A person was expected to produce $20,000 in order to receive medical treatment for an injury that would prevent her from earning a living and drastically reduce her quality of life.

America, just... what the fuck?

See, here in Australia, what with our evil communist government health system, we occasionally like to tell silly campfire horror stories about the state of health care in the US. Y'know, tales about that terrible place where you can get hit by a car and hospital staff will refuse to put you back together unless you throw wads of money or medical insurance forms at them. I never really knew what to think about these stories. And, quite frankly, I didn't particularly care because hey, why would I? That mess is an entire Pacific Ocean away. But this whole business with Extra Credits and the injury of the Pink Bean seems to suggest that those stories were disquieting close to the truth.

Some months back there was talk of the system being changed under the Obama administration. Last I heard it was still in the early stages, it seemed to mostly consist of a lot of people running around yelling something about socialism. Did that end up going anywhere?

So, anyway... is there a point to all this text? Well... no, not really. I guess I'm just a bit surprised that such a system would exist in a nation that likes to hold itself up as the epitome of the developed world, and not entirely without reason. Also, I would really like to hear from some of the many American escapists. What do you people think of this system? Do you want to defend it? Is there something I am missing here?

...

PS. If anyone is interested, I could give a brief summary of the far-from-perfect Australian system for purposes of comparison. I was going to do it here, but this is already too long.

PPS. Oh yeah, and another thing. I know it's a bit tricky given the nature of the topic, but can we please try to keep the USA-bashing within reasonable bounds? Yeah, I know they pull some immensely stupid shit on occasion, but, well... don't we all?

I'm an American, and I'll defend our health-care system. Here's why: $14,200,000,000,000. That's the American debt as of several weeks ago. We can't stop deficit spending as it is, we can't keep adding expenditures without drastically increasing our revenue. We just can't afford national health care right now. We're close enough to bankrupt as is, national health care is not possible for us right now.

Personally, I have mixed feelings on socialized health care in general, but dismissing that, it's completely impracticable right now.

 

[Chevy235]

except, i pay taxes too. everyone does. that's kind of the point.

43% of Americans pay no income taxes, and a percentage of that receives tax dollars through Federal programs. We actually have a very progressive taxation system, according to some tax analysts.

 

[ecoho]

You don't feel so bad paying 2x's the price for games now, do ya?

Whenever people bring it up, Insurance lobbyists cry that it will cause people to wait years for their major surgeries, people won't be able to choose their own doctors, and it will cause our best doctors to flee the country. People actually believe them too.

Fear Tactics FTW.

it kinda helps when they are right. Free health care is just a bad idea in US. why? we have too many people over a much larger land mass. Now what they need to do is get affordable insurance out there that people who dont have alot of money can afford that way we dont go bankrupt we dont lose our doctors oh and we wont have to wait for our surgeries.

Some of the best "Doctors" I've ever met were actually nurses. I'm sure that I will get corrected on this, but from my point of view a Nurse basically just a Doctor who isn't paid as well. Oh, and they do much more work too.

I'm not overly worried about Doctors fleeing the country because they aren't paid the outrageous sums of money they demand when much better Doctors will take their place.

yes nurses are usually much better then doctors when it comes to everyday health care as they have more training in bedside manner, but surgeons and specialists are very different matter.
thing is nurses will probily go next as they will also take huge pay cuts with free health care.

 

[Steven Biehler]

trust us Americans we all hate our system too. It's that our leaders only vote on party lines, we are basically being brought down by our own freedom. what 1/2 wants the other half basically will vote no on only on the fact that someone from their side did not say it. we tell stories of how other countries decided to put aside their differences and now have a functional health system.