USA health system... umm... what the hell?!
- Thread starter Zhukov
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It is a very sad state to have what is effectively entrepeneurial enterprise as your only health system. People go on and on about freedom to choose doctors, freedom to choose the best hospital, shop around for the best treatment, etc. But to be honest, the kind of people who need hospital care are not the kind of people who can spend time looking around for the best deal. So what ends up happening is the most vulnerable, desperate people just screwed out of getting a good deal, or are forced to risk their health looking around.
But of course in the USA, government services are "socialism." And that is something evil which must be avoided at all costs.
In relation to complaints about waiting lists: It is simply an issue of supply and demand. The area of public health is what you could call a "bottomless pit" of services. Because what happens is as soon as you increase the funding and move the waiting times faster, you get more people who want to join the list. Also the waiting lists have a pretty good system where they evaluate how urgent the treatment is and compare how much each person will benefit from it. It's not just first come, first served.
Also where I live there is an entirely independent private health sector which has much shorter waiting times for those who are able and willing to pay for it. This way everyone is able to get a good deal.
But of course in the USA, government services are "socialism." And that is something evil which must be avoided at all costs.
In relation to complaints about waiting lists: It is simply an issue of supply and demand. The area of public health is what you could call a "bottomless pit" of services. Because what happens is as soon as you increase the funding and move the waiting times faster, you get more people who want to join the list. Also the waiting lists have a pretty good system where they evaluate how urgent the treatment is and compare how much each person will benefit from it. It's not just first come, first served.
Also where I live there is an entirely independent private health sector which has much shorter waiting times for those who are able and willing to pay for it. This way everyone is able to get a good deal.
What I meant is this:murphy7801 said:
In other countries you HAVE to get pretty advanced health insurance, which means everyone pays more money, but that the health insurance in general is a little bit cheaper.
In the USA you don't HAVE to get health insurance and not many people have the expensive insurance, so most people just get either nothing or the cheapest one available (because the advanced one costs a lot more in the USA).
And to be fair if you live for 80 years with no health insurance you probably save more than 20k anyway, and that's the American mindset, isn't it?
What I meant is this:DracoSuave said:
In other countries you HAVE to get pretty advanced health insurance, which means everyone pays more money, but that the health insurance in general is a little bit cheaper.
In the USA you don't HAVE to get health insurance and not many people have the expensive insurance, so most people just get either nothing or the cheapest one available (because the advanced one costs a lot more in the USA).
And to be fair if you live for 80 years with no health insurance you probably save more than 20k anyway, and that's the American mindset, isn't it?
And I didn't say I agreed, but a lot of things in the USA are like this. They have comparably very low taxes as well, but they get a lot less stuff like social security. It all fits perfectly in the mindset of 'If you're not rich it's your own damn fault' that is the American dream.
You know, from what's been mentioned about the UK health care system, I might just tell my friend to go there. See, he's diabetic. He can barely afford food because he has to pay $100+ for a small batch of insulin. I would go there too (I'm strangely prone to injuries), except I have a "hearing impediment" of sorts, and for some reason I can barely understand British people in person. Recordings, fine. But IRL? Nope. 
EDIT: Instead of all these crazy laws about insurance, the government should allow people to be completely uninsured, and pay in full (car insurance is legally required, afaik). Instead of paying an insurance company, you just put $X in a bank account per month. When you need the money, you don't have to deal with complete BS, and you can just use the money.
EDIT: Instead of all these crazy laws about insurance, the government should allow people to be completely uninsured, and pay in full (car insurance is legally required, afaik). Instead of paying an insurance company, you just put $X in a bank account per month. When you need the money, you don't have to deal with complete BS, and you can just use the money.
What are you talking about? The majority of American libertarian commentators focus on exactly that, high-level government corruption, imperialist foreign policy, the creation of corporatist monopolies and an over-regulated police state. Unless you're talking about economists like Walter Williams (who really only argues against the welfare state because he was raised in a slum and was able to pull himself out of it, which he feels is becoming harder to do as a result of welfare programs with good intentions but bad results). 'Pro-Liberty' individuals like Tom Woods are constantly arguing against government and business monopolies, and libertarian politicians like Gary Johnson (former governor of New Mexico) constantly axe regulatory bills that give big business an unfair advantage. Even just journalists like John Stossel are more focused on police brutality and government intervention in the economy then the welfare state. Exactly where are you getting your information?ccdohl said:
I'm not going to make any big comments on the healthcare issue on this thread, just because I have had some severe problems with the Canadian system based on personal experience. My grandfather had a heart condition and was placed on a list for a major surgery to correct, but it was deemed that he didn't need it soon. Three months in he died of a major heart attack. It's because of that personal bias I choose to remain neutral on the subject, as it's clear that both systems have major problems.
I live in The Netherlands where health insurance costs me about ? 100,- net. It's quite a lot for me and I don't need it right now, but I will probably need it at some point. The thing which bothers me the moest is that I have to pay the first 500 euro's of stuff myself. If I take some medicine for some reason (which I did a year ago), it set me back another ? 200,-, which I find rediculous because I still pay for my insurance itself and that's all that cost me since I had my own insurance when I turned 17, about 4 years ago.
The English system seems the best. A slightly higher tax and free health care based on not wasting money on stuff. Community service ftw!
The English system seems the best. A slightly higher tax and free health care based on not wasting money on stuff. Community service ftw!
As far as I can tell it seems that the majority of the Americvan people said I do not want to pay higher taxes for a free healthcare system because if I personally never have to go to hospital that will be a waste of my money. Why should my money be used to treat other people.
I know that not every American feels that way and the insurance companies and medical institutions that clevery spin and have been continually spinning that free healthcare is a bad thing, have vested interests in the frankly obscene amounts of money coming there way, but it seems to me that a country which likes to hold itself up as a shining example of democracy and which I can attest has some of the most generous, friendly and caring people in the world in it, wouldn't want to help each other out by all paying a few bucks a month.
I know that not every American feels that way and the insurance companies and medical institutions that clevery spin and have been continually spinning that free healthcare is a bad thing, have vested interests in the frankly obscene amounts of money coming there way, but it seems to me that a country which likes to hold itself up as a shining example of democracy and which I can attest has some of the most generous, friendly and caring people in the world in it, wouldn't want to help each other out by all paying a few bucks a month.
"See, here in Australia, what with our evil communist government health system, we occasionally like to tell silly campfire horror stories about the state of health care in the US. Y'know, tales about that terrible place where you can get hit by a car and hospital staff will refuse to put you back together unless you throw wads of money or medical insurance forms at them."
That's false. Any self-respecting doctor would help the person, then deal with the insurance company as best they could. The problem with medicine here is that it's run as a business, by huge insurance firms looking to squeeze every penny out of the patient's pocket. If the doctor's had their way, we would have a health care system like Canada, the UK, or Australia.
That's false. Any self-respecting doctor would help the person, then deal with the insurance company as best they could. The problem with medicine here is that it's run as a business, by huge insurance firms looking to squeeze every penny out of the patient's pocket. If the doctor's had their way, we would have a health care system like Canada, the UK, or Australia.
Well my good sir, you do not have to pay. Your credit score will diminish, but with a steady job, that won't matter!Zhukov said:
A bit of research into the matter rather then reading Tabloids would help.
I currently sit on a 1,313 dollar amount owed for a catscan that I have been paying back in 20 dollar amounts once a month with no interest. I also have no Insurance. People just whine because they want it all done noooooooow *Whiney voice* and with little effort.
After a year of paying bits and pieces, my bill is down to 710, my credit score is climbing back up since I am paying my bills.
A hospital CAN NOT deny medical service under penalty of law.
But what would I know? Besides the Degrees required for a Psychologist, I am also working towards my backup job Choice of Lawyer. Pffft, what could law books possibly tell us my good sir?
Whats funny is, this came from a guy in a Nation that planned to Ban SecondLife and oher M games because instead of make a R18 rating they would rather enforce the mostly fundamentalist christian views of the majority of Australlian government officials and keep their highest rating at 15 or up.Im Phelpsing It said:
A few points I'd like to add to the debate: At first I thought "Why don't insurance companies look for those pre-existing conditions that make you uninsurable BEFORE you join with them. They're basically lying to their customers, saying "Oh yeah, sure, we'll insure you", and then they find half their customers (or for some smarter insurance companies, MOST of their customers) are uninsurable. I'd consider that negligence. Then I realised why they do it, because they want your money. But isn't that fraud? Taking someone's money, claiming you'll help them out in times of need, and then ditching them because you didn't do your homework earlier? HOW IS THIS HAPPENNING!!!!
Another point, the main argument for anti-socialised health-care is that it'll head the USA down a slippery slope to socialism. Okay, first, the USA is the most anti-communist country in the world, I'm pretty sure they'd be able to stop themselves before it got that bad. Hell, Australia and England are doing alright! Second, wasn't it once said "Methinks the lady doth protest too much"? The degree to which Americans scream anti-socialist propoganda makes it seem as if their hiding something, either their secret want to be communist or the fact that communism isn't that bad. I'm not saying either is true, it's just that the USA needs to tone it down a bit otherwise red flags will be going up (Hah! Pun...). In actual fact, the more likely reason is that Americans (at least extremist Republicans) are just really loud and obnoxious.
Another point, the main argument for anti-socialised health-care is that it'll head the USA down a slippery slope to socialism. Okay, first, the USA is the most anti-communist country in the world, I'm pretty sure they'd be able to stop themselves before it got that bad. Hell, Australia and England are doing alright! Second, wasn't it once said "Methinks the lady doth protest too much"? The degree to which Americans scream anti-socialist propoganda makes it seem as if their hiding something, either their secret want to be communist or the fact that communism isn't that bad. I'm not saying either is true, it's just that the USA needs to tone it down a bit otherwise red flags will be going up (Hah! Pun...). In actual fact, the more likely reason is that Americans (at least extremist Republicans) are just really loud and obnoxious.
*Ahem* national insurance?ELD3RGoD said:
Medical care in the UK is far from free, its just that there is no extra charge for treatment, however we all pay taxes for the medical care, every penny that is spent on health in this country comes from tax payers pockets... So its not free, the cost is just spread around everyone, whether they need medical care or not.
Not that I'm saying this is a bad thing, just saying is all.
Yes, a giggle at someone else's expense would surely show my capability at playing devil's advocate in ANY scenario. I see you learned political debate from the British Parlamint, yes?Zhukov said:
(Please, if you wish to insult my capabilities at noticing trends in current lawmaking or my ability to debate strongly on a subject, at least keep it on topic by discussing WHY you feel so and HOW I am wrong)
PPS: I do not hate any particular government, or financial system as all have their flaws and merits. A Ruling Dictatorship can be amazing with a good man ruling, or completely awful.