USA - Police State here we come!

[MistahFixIt]

I'd really like to see a revolt against the US government in my lifetime.

I'm not one to advocate violence, but I have the depressing sensation that the only way things are going to change in the United States is with an awful, bloody paradigm shift. An American version of The French Revolution, more likely than not.

 

[PhantomEcho]

First of all, yes. The Federal Government of the United States of America can, and has, illegally detained citizens and non-citizens alike for far longer than the passage of the Defense Authorization Act.

Yes, it is also an act which is written up, every year, time and time again.

Earlier this year, there was a lot of huffing and puffing over the wording of the bill. People were concerned that it gave the President too much power, and that it could be used, despite specifically stating otherwise, to justify the detention of United States citizens.

Earlier this week, the current Administration requested that the wording of the act be changed to SPECIFICALLY ALLOW the detention of United States citizens.

As of today, it has been announced that President Obama will NOT veto the bill.


Those are the facts as of this moment.

There is no hype, or alarmism involved. People have a very, very legitimate cause to be concerned.

 

[Caverat]

This is being blown completely out of proportion. Consider the sources for these cries of the US turning into a police state, AlJazeera? Anonymous? If the US government were to do anything, I mean anything, they'd cry bloody murder and scream of the inherent wickedness of the fascist military industrial elite secretly running the US.

This Nation Defense Authorization Act(It's been enacted for each of the last 48 years) includes language in Section 1032 stating the intent is not to change existing common law, such as Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, which ruled that lawful United States citizens have the right to challenge their detention before an impartial judge and military commission.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hr1540rh/pdf/BILLS-112hr1540rh.pdf

There is a link to the bill, which should have been provided alongside the Al Jazeera article by the OP. If you're going to quote a biased news service, at least post access to the source of the controversy if it is a document.

First of all, yes. The Federal Government of the United States of America can, and has, illegally detained citizens and non-citizens alike for far longer than the passage of the Defense Authorization Act.

Yes, it is also an act which is written up, every year, time and time again.

Earlier this year, there was a lot of huffing and puffing over the wording of the bill. People were concerned that it gave the President too much power, and that it could be used, despite specifically stating otherwise, to justify the detention of United States citizens.

Earlier this week, the current Administration requested that the wording of the act be changed to SPECIFICALLY ALLOW the detention of United States citizens.

As of today, it has been announced that President Obama will NOT veto the bill.

Those are the facts as of this moment.

There is no hype, or alarmism involved. People have a very, very legitimate cause to be concerned.

Keep in mind that it is a fact, to some people, that vaccines cause autism. One person's facts can easily be another's bullshit.

 

[Avernus]

All that is being done is bringing the law up to date to match the reality that already exists.

Caverat, on a side note I just have to give my opinion on Al Jazerra... some of the least biased reporting available today.

Everyone(media) has been watching them like a hawk waiting for them to mess up, and both sides know it.

 

[Ulvenbror]

Well, now that is surprising!
So there are US Americans who really believe they are not already living for well over 60 years in a police state?

A lie told a 100 times does NOT become truth but, it apparently does become the "accepted truth".

Thanks ABC, NBC, FOX, CNN, Hollywood and the church in general!
Keep up the good work guiding the herd!

 

[PhantomEcho]

This is being blown completely out of proportion. Consider the sources for these cries of the US turning into a police state, AlJazeera? Anonymous? If the US government were to do anything, I mean anything, they'd cry bloody murder and scream of the inherent wickedness of the fascist military industrial elite secretly running the US.

This Nation Defense Authorization Act(It's been enacted for each of the last 48 years) includes language in Section 1032 stating the intent is not to change existing common law, such as Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, which ruled that lawful United States citizens have the right to challenge their detention before an impartial judge and military commission.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hr1540rh/pdf/BILLS-112hr1540rh.pdf

There is a link to the bill, which should have been provided alongside the Al Jazeera article by the OP. If you're going to quote a biased news service, at least post access to the source of the controversy if it is a document.

First of all, yes. The Federal Government of the United States of America can, and has, illegally detained citizens and non-citizens alike for far longer than the passage of the Defense Authorization Act.

Yes, it is also an act which is written up, every year, time and time again.

Earlier this year, there was a lot of huffing and puffing over the wording of the bill. People were concerned that it gave the President too much power, and that it could be used, despite specifically stating otherwise, to justify the detention of United States citizens.

Earlier this week, the current Administration requested that the wording of the act be changed to SPECIFICALLY ALLOW the detention of United States citizens.

As of today, it has been announced that President Obama will NOT veto the bill.

Those are the facts as of this moment.

There is no hype, or alarmism involved. People have a very, very legitimate cause to be concerned.

Keep in mind that it is a fact, to some people, that vaccines cause autism. One person's facts can easily be another's bullshit.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between 'facts' that people make up, and 'facts' that are certifiable reports which can be verified by both mainstream and fringe sources.

Bullshit is telling people to bury their heads in the sand because it's all 'being overblown'. I'm not telling anybody to do anything. I'm also not presenting any information other than what factual accounts of what has happened, and even then only those that can be verified.

I leave it up to the reader to do their homework.

The people who are concerned have a very justifiable reason for being concerned.


Let's clarify some things you have stated, though:


"Consider the sources for these cries of the US turning into a police state, AlJazeera? Anonymous? If the US government were to do anything, I mean anything, they'd cry bloody murder and scream of the inherent wickedness of the fascist military industrial elite secretly running the US."


Who are the sources? Why... here's one:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/obama-supports-defense-bill-after-changes-to-detainee-provisions/

Oh, and another: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/obama-supports-defense-bill-after-changes-to-detainee-provisions/

Oh, and would you look at that... there's an entire site covering it right now: http://current.com/


Why? Because this is our country. Because these are laws that need to represent and DEFEND us... and it's important to UNDERSTAND what they do, and what they mean. As you can see, there's a lot of negativity out there. And there's good reason for it.

Because this is how countries BECOME fascist nations ruled by the industrial elites while the poor suffer under their heels. It's apathy. It's complete disregard that allows these states to rise up, often times from nations just like ours.

So rather than spouting your own brand of bias, how about you find some actual people talking about this? How about you find some sources of information who explain why this is all just a big misunderstanding? Wouldn't that be what reasonable people do in a society where we're free to make up our own minds... show both sides?

I've shown my sources of information. Where are yours? Who are they? What do they represent?

Let's keep people informed on what's going on.

Let's let people be the judge.


Secondly:

"This Nation Defense Authorization Act(It's been enacted for each of the last 48 years) includes language in Section 1032 stating the intent is not to change existing common law, such as Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, which ruled that lawful United States citizens have the right to challenge their detention before an impartial judge and military commission."

Lawful United States citizens have the right to challenge their detention before an impartial judge and military commission?

Do you know what that means? That means they march you up in front of a military tribunal, without representation or a crime against which to challenge your guilt, before hauling you off to whatever 'terrorist imprisonment center' they're most fond of using that day.

That is not a trial. You are not being charged with a crime. You are not looking at being sentenced. You are being ACCUSED of, and I will try to quote it as closely as possible, 'actions or behaviors which identify you as being a possible terror suspect'.

Have you READ the list of what defines a possible terror suspect? I have. It's very, very vague. I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to compete against it... I'd be rotting in a hole somewhere by now.


But the most blatant issue with this provision of the act is that it is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It violates not only human rights, but the CONSTITUTIONAL rights of the American citizenry.

To tell people they are 'blowing this out of proportion' is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

How -should- we react to laws that abjectly violate the founding principles of our government?

Perhaps you think we should all issue a sternly worded memo?

Oh, I know, perhaps we should... wait and see?

 

[Ironic Pirate]

Well, now that is surprising!
So there are US Americans who really believe they are not already living for well over 60 years in a police state?

A lie told a 100 times does NOT become truth but, it apparently does become the "accepted truth".

Thanks ABC, NBC, FOX, CNN, Hollywood and the church in general!
Keep up the good work guiding the herd!

Please, stop. I'm not even disagreeing, but when you present your views with a such a slimey sense of smug superiority it makes me disregard everything you say. Not that "teh media is teh evulz, you are all teh sheeple!" is really worth listening to anyway, though.

Anyway, it seems we need a refresher on what a police state is. Guess what? In a police state, you can't say it's a police state. If you can have a militia full of raving wing-nuts, own enough guns to take on the local police department and regular post about this on the internet, chances are you aren't in fact living in a police state.

I'm not saying this isn't bad, because it is. But it's also not a police state, and saying that makes people less likely to listen to you.

 

[xvbones]

Well, the USA is one step closer to being a Police State.. The House of Representatives just passed a bill containing, among other equally horrid things, "legislation that would deny terror suspects, including US citizens, the right to trial and permit authorities to detain them indefinitely."

Now the Bill still has to pass through the Senate, but chances are it'll get through.

Obama has already promised to veto this.

 

[xvbones]

Well, now that is surprising!
So there are US Americans who really believe they are not already living for well over 60 years in a police state?

A lie told a 100 times does NOT become truth but, it apparently does become the "accepted truth".

Thanks ABC, NBC, FOX, CNN, Hollywood and the church in general!
Keep up the good work guiding the herd!

Oh for fuck's sake.

Move to China if you want to see what life in an actual police state resembles, k.

The fact that you are even capable of levying such claims without breaking the law sort of proves that America is not, in fact, a police state.

K?

In an actual police state, and here is the tricky part, they don't have to lie about it not being a police state.

Because it would be a police state.

K.

 

[RamirezDoEverything]

It's a sad sad day in American history.

My beautiful country is vanishing before my very eyes.

 

[PhantomEcho]

Well, now that is surprising!
So there are US Americans who really believe they are not already living for well over 60 years in a police state?

A lie told a 100 times does NOT become truth but, it apparently does become the "accepted truth".

Thanks ABC, NBC, FOX, CNN, Hollywood and the church in general!
Keep up the good work guiding the herd!

Oh for fuck's sake.

Move to China if you want to see what life in an actual police state resembles, k.

The fact that you are even capable of levying such claims without breaking the law sort of proves that America is not, in fact, a police state.

K?

In an actual police state, and here is the tricky part, they don't have to lie about it not being a police state.

Because it would be a police state.

K.

These snarky claims that somehow we must live in China to see a police state are utterly ridiculous... mostly for the fact that the argument here is that this is just another STEP in the direction of an authoritarian shift in our government.

And it is. But this is only the most recent step in a long line of steps which have been leading the country that direction for some time.

That doesn't make it the RIGHT direction. That doesn't mean that saying "We're not China yet!" utterly fails to address the point that we also aren't AMERICA anymore, either... and that this law takes us even further in a direction that the vast majority of the nation is staunchly against.

Let's hear a few of the criteria for terrorists again! Mind you, these are just the CURRENT vague laws. We're certain to obfuscate them further as time goes on:

Rand Paul: "There are laws on the books now that characterize who might be a terrorist: someone missing fingers on their hands is a suspect according to the department of justice. Someone who has guns, someone who has ammunition that is weatherproofed, someone who has more than seven days of food in their house can be considered a potential terrorist,"


Well. I hope you aren't a nine-fingered gun owner with enough food to last through a cold WEEK in the Midwest.

Because you, my friend, qualify as a possible terrorist.


Look, people paying attention is IMPORTANT. But directing that attention to meaningful action is the most important part. Because without action, then yes... all folks are doing now is blathering about how much it sucks.

And that's worthless. That's not going to fix anything.

 

[ajemas]

I am American, and I do find this very troubling. Obama said that he would veto it immediately, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of our leaders support this.

 

[DarkRyter]

How come everyone always forgets the 16th amendment?

"You have the right to shoot and kill ONE person without reason. So long as no one finds out about it."

No one ever exercises it.

 

[HerbertTheHamster]

It's funny because the U.S. is becoming as free as their once great enemy, the USSR

I for one, welcome irony in every form. America, land of the free.

 

[T8B95]

I think Carlin said it best:


Anyone who thinks that they still have rights is kidding themselves.

 

[PhantomEcho]

How come everyone always forgets the 16th amendment?

"You have the right to shoot and kill ONE person without reason. So long as no one finds out about it."

No one ever exercises it.

I think you're slightly mistaken. See, the 16th amendment is all about taxes. And the provision actually reads:


"[the United States] Government shall have the right to levy unfair and unwieldy taxes, on income, so long as the persons taxed is not a corporate sponsor or member of the House or Senate."

It -does- later go on to state that the government has the right to tax us into our graves... and then tax our graves, too... which our families then must pay for...

... it's a long, ugly amendment.

 

[Frost27]

All this and SOPA is about to pass too. I would love to leave this country for somewhere better, the trouble is, the changes happened here last so there is nowhere to go.