You completely forgot Assassins creed 2, even though what's his face was annoying, bu he was like 8 years old when he was hung
Using Children for Shock Value /Rant
- Thread starter Soviet Heavy
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I feel a quote from Mordin Solus is needed here:
I believe that is the feeling Bioware is trying to elicit. Besides, do you honestly think that the Reapers will just kill the men and womenfolk? Just the people with big guns who can defend themselves? They have come to Reap, and children are not excluded. It's good to be reminded of that.Mordin said:
Also:
OT: Well, I should probably comment more so that this post adds to the discussion.
I do agree that killing off kids has been used far too often, and for the sole purpose of shock value.
I will still say that the best use of "childmurder" that I've seen anytime recently was actually in the extended Mass Effect trailer. Now where did I leave that....
I kindof liked how the main kid got a bit more context, but what I loved was during the callback to "Big Ben" when there was a mother and her child running from a husk. You know they're not going to make it, but it didn't feel forced in the slightest, partly because it was happening more in the background (as I recall).
Best. Euphemism. Ever. I grant you 2 points, to be redeemed at any local points store.aegix drakan said:
OT: Well, I should probably comment more so that this post adds to the discussion.
I do agree that killing off kids has been used far too often, and for the sole purpose of shock value.
I will still say that the best use of "childmurder" that I've seen anytime recently was actually in the extended Mass Effect trailer. Now where did I leave that....
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I kindof liked how the main kid got a bit more context, but what I loved was during the callback to "Big Ben" when there was a mother and her child running from a husk. You know they're not going to make it, but it didn't feel forced in the slightest, partly because it was happening more in the background (as I recall).
If you ask me, Siren Bloodcurse is the only game that's really done a child's death well. Because unlike Mw3 it's a big part of the story, rather just than "We're going to kill a child, never mention it again and expect it to work as well as the nuking from the first game."
But, I am biased, because that's the only recent survival horror (Unless one counts Silent Hill 2 as recent) to actually draw me in and make me feel terrified, like I was alone with something that hated me and no way out.
But, I am biased, because that's the only recent survival horror (Unless one counts Silent Hill 2 as recent) to actually draw me in and make me feel terrified, like I was alone with something that hated me and no way out.
This is one of the MANY things on the internet that I don't get why people get so worked up over. They have a kid dying, big deal. It was to smack me in the face, and you know what? It worked, I was actually tearing up at that scene, so mission accomplished as far as I care, the way I see it, use these kind of things when they work, and it worked. Also I would like to point something out with the ME3 incident it wasn't ZOMG LOOK KID DIEZ! Bioware flat out said that it was "to show that no matter what you do you can't save everyone." Also it wasn't just a kid that popped out of nowhere just for his death scene, it was a kid that was introduced early on in times of peace, shown again later when Shepard tried to help him and then finally when he died. It wasn't that a kid died, it was that Shepard failed to save someone, him being a kid was just the icing on the cake.
Seriously, the word "cliche" get's thrown around too easily, news flash people, EVERYTHING is cliche now. Dark backstory? Cliche. Dead parents? Cliche. Mentor going to die? Cliche. Good guys win? Cliche. It's about how it works in context, not how many other people have done it. Also I get the feeling people are just parroting Yahtzee now, not calling the OP out on this, but a lot of people do seem to do that.
Seriously, the word "cliche" get's thrown around too easily, news flash people, EVERYTHING is cliche now. Dark backstory? Cliche. Dead parents? Cliche. Mentor going to die? Cliche. Good guys win? Cliche. It's about how it works in context, not how many other people have done it. Also I get the feeling people are just parroting Yahtzee now, not calling the OP out on this, but a lot of people do seem to do that.
To be fair, I don't think ME3 was using it for "shock" value. I think it was more of a "reeling people in for the purchase" thing. That was a demo, and the specific purpose of a demo is to get players to buy the full game by whatever means necessary. The boy was a cliffhanger. Anderson didn't see him and he straight up vanished for a while, hinting at something unnatural about him, and he was shown 3 times (significant number in storytelling) so he might have a background story and even a link to the main storyline.Soviet Heavy said:
Pretty much this. Although to be fair I would have been more impressed if they had it so you got attached to an adult who is then vaporized by reapers. That would have impressed me.Valanthe said:
But that didn't happen, oh well, it still put the point of "People are going to die, and there's nothing you can do"
OT: Kind of a agree, kind of disagree, your slight superiority complex on the subject is a bit annoying though.
Now listen, I know you are a big Bioware fan, but I am not solely calling them out on this. And I also am not parroting Yahtzee, not matter what people think. I was one of the people who supported the existence of the child killing mod in Skyrim, whereas he had the majority reaction of seeing it's existence as creepy.erttheking said:
Now, a question is: Why use a kid? What is so much more emotional about watching a child you almost saved get blasted than a man, or a woman? Well, games have conditioned us to blast apart thousands of men and women without a pang of regret. Suddenly, a child dies, and it's supposed to be serious and emotional. Doesn't that seem a little degrading to the men and women?
I am not saying that a child's death shouldn't be used. What I'm saying is the way it is being used I feel is lazy, manipulative, and intended for shock value, and that is something I disagree with.
As far as Mass Effect 3 is concerned, if it's any consolation, it's looking like that kid isn't even real... ... so, he couldn't have been blown up if he never existed in the first place.
I think the main mindset was this (also I said I wasn't calling you out on parroting Yahtzee I was calling out other people. I saw one of your earlier posts) Adults are stronger and smarter than kids, if there is a fire or a man with a gun, they will know which way to run to get to a fire escape, what to do to avoid getting shot, and they are even capable of fighting back. Kids aren't and can't and how helpless they are is supposed to suck us in and show how depressing it is. What's more Bioware isn't saying that kids lives matter more than adults, we got a similar scene back in ME2 when you see a woman get disintegrated on the Collector base. A single woman.Soviet Heavy said:
Well, yes. Yes it's lazy and manipulative. But it's not wrong that people feel worse about seeing a child die than an adult. Usually the adults have had some opportunity to make a choice about facing the risk of death or not - to stand and fight or run and hide - but children are innocent, both in fiction and (relatively) in life. They just get caught up in these things. Then there's the loss. Adults have had more life and therefore lost less than children. And then there's just the big eye-to-face ratio - the protective, parental instinct.Soviet Heavy said:
The trouble with using such powerful ammunition in your writing is that if it doesn't make an impact, nothing else will. I think that's the only rule writers need to worry about. Forget context and character and all the rest of it, as long as you actually do elicit a response, you've got away with it. If you don't, you've sabotaged your entire story.
Oscar Wilde said:
Frankly, I don't think it's any more or less emotional. To go with the three examples most frequently mentioned in here so far...Soviet Heavy said:
When the bomb went off in Modern Warfare 3, it wasn't just the child that was caught in the blast. The mother and father were right there in the explosion too. I didn't feel bad because a child died, I felt bad because an innocent family, who likely had a bright future ahead of them, were wiped out because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
When I watched that trailer for Dead Island, again, it wasn't just a little girl who died. The mother and father were there too. Another happy family, tragically in the wrong place at the wrong time. Honestly, when I saw that trailer, I felt worst for the father. You could tell he loved his little girl more than anything else in the world, you could tell that he would gladly lay down his own life to protect her... but despite his best efforts, he was unable to save her, and then she herself infected him.
When I watched the Mass Effect 3 trailer, yes, I saw a little girl die (well, implied, to be fair). But the purpose of it was to show that the Reapers don't intend to "fight fair." That's what I got out of the camera clipping back and forth between the innocent little girl and the military-trained fighter pilot who gets shot down. It's to show that the Reapers aren't just going after humans with body armor and weaponry, they're going after all humans. It doesn't matter who or what you are, if you're a human, you aren't safe. It's meant to be tragic, but I don't think it was meant in a "OMG THEY KILLED A KID!!! REVENGE!!!!!!!!!!" sort of way.
I think this actually shows the degeneration of Bioware's writing
and in ME3 its just "oh look its a child... omg he dies! feel angry... no seriously he di... oh c'mon you should feel bad about this".
3 reasons this didn work
1. we have no connection to the child what so ever
2. the reapers are trying to kill EVERYTHING IN THE FUCKING GALAXY! why on earth should i care that we see ONE child die? before that we saw the HQ get blown up and people in their had more lines than the child.
3. We all know the reapers (atleast harbinger) have identified Shepard himself as a really big threat. so in this scene the reaper focuses on 2 transports containing merely civillians. while the normandy with shepard clearly on it (which isnt even moving) gets ignored in favour of child killing. bad writing
and to anyone who says maybe the reaper wouldnt know it was shepard. they knew who he was before they got anywhere near the galaxy let alone just a few hundred metres away from him. and having said that a military war ship is better target then two civillian transports.
Vermire, c'mon two characters youve gotten to know through out the game, not only does one of them die but its but your choice which one dies, its even emphasised that during the assault on the base you can help their chances of surviving the battle by hacking terminals and so on, but then the game goes ONE DIES CHOOSE!
and in ME3 its just "oh look its a child... omg he dies! feel angry... no seriously he di... oh c'mon you should feel bad about this".
3 reasons this didn work
1. we have no connection to the child what so ever
2. the reapers are trying to kill EVERYTHING IN THE FUCKING GALAXY! why on earth should i care that we see ONE child die? before that we saw the HQ get blown up and people in their had more lines than the child.
3. We all know the reapers (atleast harbinger) have identified Shepard himself as a really big threat. so in this scene the reaper focuses on 2 transports containing merely civillians. while the normandy with shepard clearly on it (which isnt even moving) gets ignored in favour of child killing. bad writing
and to anyone who says maybe the reaper wouldnt know it was shepard. they knew who he was before they got anywhere near the galaxy let alone just a few hundred metres away from him. and having said that a military war ship is better target then two civillian transports.
I do love how utterly predictable it has become. When I saw that little girl pop up in the ME3 trailer, my first thought was "Welp, she's a goner."
I was actually thinking of making a thread like this after watching the new Mass Effect 3 trailer but I guess there's no need to now.
I think it's a form of lazy writing. Apparently we should feel more sad if a child dies. Modern Warfare 3 is a big hitter on this one, warning you that a "very graphical scene will happen later on" or something like that. It even gives the option to not show it to you for God's sake.
Same with Bioshock. Save the demonic, evil little girl or make yourself more powerful by killer her.
The only time I saw a child dying in a game and did a good job of not giving as much shit about it is Gears of War 3. At the start of the RAAM's Shadow DLC a child was to get evacuated in a truck but was dragged off underground by a corpser. Less than a minute later guns were fired and chainsaws were revved.
Yet another question: Why can't we ever see a child get killed directly?
Bioshock censored it by covering the screen with some ill-coloured smoke.
Gears 3 and ME 3 the child is inside a vehicle, not showing them at all.
Dragon Age: Origins gives the option of killing a demon-possessed child, which happens offscreen .
Modern Fallouts and Skyrim's children seen to be indestructible.
And that's about all I can name for now.
I think it's a form of lazy writing. Apparently we should feel more sad if a child dies. Modern Warfare 3 is a big hitter on this one, warning you that a "very graphical scene will happen later on" or something like that. It even gives the option to not show it to you for God's sake.
Same with Bioshock. Save the demonic, evil little girl or make yourself more powerful by killer her.
The only time I saw a child dying in a game and did a good job of not giving as much shit about it is Gears of War 3. At the start of the RAAM's Shadow DLC a child was to get evacuated in a truck but was dragged off underground by a corpser. Less than a minute later guns were fired and chainsaws were revved.
Yet another question: Why can't we ever see a child get killed directly?
Bioshock censored it by covering the screen with some ill-coloured smoke.
Gears 3 and ME 3 the child is inside a vehicle, not showing them at all.
Dragon Age: Origins gives the option of killing a demon-possessed child, which happens offscreen .
Modern Fallouts and Skyrim's children seen to be indestructible.
And that's about all I can name for now.
I found that childrens deaths in games are laughably predictably and feels like it was a cheap shot by the developers to reel me in emotionally. I'll be more sad if Garrus dies.
when I heard that a child dies in COD..I was like "ok sure whatever"
when I heard that that child was purposfully an american tourist in LONDON for crying out loud I was like "are you fuckign kidding me?? british children around worth your fucking concern? gaaahhh!!"
when I heard that that child was purposfully an american tourist in LONDON for crying out loud I was like "are you fuckign kidding me?? british children around worth your fucking concern? gaaahhh!!"
or run and wet yourself, either way, you're getting the hell out of there!Valanthe said:
OT there will always be something used for shock value, once the whole, "oh look they killed a kid" thing gets old, they'll have to find something new... I suggest punting cats!
no I have nothing against cats, just the one currently ripping my leg to shreds cause she wants food!
Frankly, I take the Fallout 2 approach to games: If they are human and exist in the game, they should be able to be killed, context or not.
Call me twisted, but I haven't seen a game successfully pull off children dying in a shocking manner. Almost every attempt I've seen comes off as downright obvious and sometimes hilarious. Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3's 'shock moment' comes to mind. I didn't expect to laugh as hard and loud as I did, simply because all the elements for the setup were apparent.
Call me twisted, but I haven't seen a game successfully pull off children dying in a shocking manner. Almost every attempt I've seen comes off as downright obvious and sometimes hilarious. Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3's 'shock moment' comes to mind. I didn't expect to laugh as hard and loud as I did, simply because all the elements for the setup were apparent.
Let's add Limbo to the list where children were applied in a constructive manner towards the overall feeling of the game.