"Vaccines don't save lives"

[loc978]

Sure, and guns don't kill people!

People kill people.

Yeah but the gun helps, doens't it? People don't just go "BANG, you're dead!"

It helps about as much as a crossbow, sure. A bit more than a knife, since there's less effort involved in using it. It's certainly far and away easier to kill with a gun than your hands... but only if you can figure out how to chamber a round (most guns don't make very well-balanced clubs). Mind you, I'm all for keeping guns out of the hands of the untrained, the unstable, and the irresponsible (so, pro national registry and mandatory licensing... but anti-banning)... but blaming tools for how people use them is about like blaming the sun for death by dehydration.

OT: ...I think I've been ninja'd somewhere on the second page... but here's a succinct clip from the Bullshit episode:
TL;DW:
Penn: "Even if vaccination did cause autism... which it fucking doesn't... anti-vaccination would still be bullshit."

 

[Drops a Sweet Katana]

And so natural selection takes its due course...

 

[Sutter Cane]

Also just so you know cancer rates are going because people are living longer (age is the biggest risk factor for cancer)

Life expectancy rose 1.5% between 1990 and 2000, rates of cancer rose 20% over the same period, so that's bunk.

Numbers can be misleading too. For example let's say I have a group of 100 people. 30 of these people will contract a specific disease in their lifetime. That's 30 percent of the whole. Let's say I wait 10 years and find out that 20% more people out of the hundred will be diagnosed with this disease. the 20 percent in this case is relative to the number of people who contracted the disease the last time I took a look. The actual number of people who will get this disease is now 36. Still an increase, but not nearly as dramatic as they'd look when presented in the way you did.

 

[FalloutJack]

Right, so...lovely people who think vaccines are bad. I have a treat for you. His name is Steve and here's here to tell you...


...as well as...


Really, people. Don't make me break out Dara O'Briain too. We can't have people allowing themselves to get sick because they don't believe that science and medication is real and works.

 

[Astoria]

There was something on here in Aus a few weeks ago about this very topic. The main person they were talking to kept going on about how much research they had done into vaccines but never said exactly where they were doing said research so it was probably from the internet. It's both our greatest and worst invention IMO. I can understand parents not wanting their kids vaccinated from everything due to the risks but for gods sake you gotta at least vaccinate for things like hepititus which can and probably will kill kids. This semester at my university there was a warning that a couple of students had meningococcal and my first thought was thank god I was vaccinated.

 

[DoPo]

2013 and some people think vaccines don't work?

Small Pox would like to say hello.

"We're sorry, the disease you're trying to reach is not available at the moment. Please try again few decades ago."

 

[Lee Quitt]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

Sigh, people live longer, get more cancer. Kids are living that years ago would have died at birth/very young, get a weird allergies, have other issues.

 

[DANEgerous]

Yeah I have to say people who think overall vaccines are harmful is the #1 thing that makes me just believe they have nothing of value to say and i should just avoid them.

Even if you give them better than their best scenario and say every case of autism ever recorded in the history of mankind is caused by a vaccine the fact is they ended massive deadly plagues. I grasp while both are bad options pick autism or polio how about autism or a small pox epidemic? We are taking about a absolute worst increased cases of one illness that while horrible is never fatal not contagious and in about one of three cases people with it can lead a normal life for several illness that are highly contagious, debilitating and fatal being wiped out of existence.

 

[McMullen]

Also just so you know cancer rates are going because people are living longer (age is the biggest risk factor for cancer)

Life expectancy rose 1.5% between 1990 and 2000, rates of cancer rose 20% over the same period, so that's bunk.

A direct comparison between changes in life expectancy and cancer rate in the way you have done is meaningless.

Say 100 people lived past 60 from 1900 to 1950, and 5 of those got cancer. Then imagine that 1000 people lived past 60 since 1950, which wouldn't necessarily raise average life expectancy more than 1.5%. If 10 of those got cancer, then cancer rate would have risen by 100%.

 

[Callate]

Argh.

Failing to vaccinate is incredibly irresponsible. Many vaccines are only 80-90% effective, so the barrier they create against serious diseases is dependent on everyone in a community getting them. It only takes a handful of people refusing to get their children vaccinated to allow something like whooping cough or mumps to have a serious recurrence.

There are places where anti- and pseudo-science attitudes only affect the people harboring those beliefs, but this isn't one of them.

 

[McMullen]

Also just so you know cancer rates are going because people are living longer (age is the biggest risk factor for cancer)

Life expectancy rose 1.5% between 1990 and 2000, rates of cancer rose 20% over the same period, so that's bunk.

A more useful statistic would be how cancer rates among age groups has changed.

From http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/incidence/age/

Notice that there is very little change among groups less than 60. There is a slight upward trend for 40-59, and a more visible trend for older groups. However, the age groups here are rather large, and this still gives room for bias in the data. For example, in the 60-74 group, more people would have reached the high end of that interval in recent times, and since cancer risk goes up exponentially with age, it stands to reason that this would cause that trend to go higher.

If we could get a graph showing single-year intervals, the trend would be very small, though I wouldn't expect it to go away completely. The reason why is that there really is a slight technological increase in cancer rates simply because of the tiny amounts of additional radiation we receive, among other things. X-rays, plane flights, tanning booths, and many other sources all give us a very small additional dose of radiation. They aren't necessarily bad in and of themselves; some are less than you get from sleeping next to someone. It's just that the number of sources has increased, so the chance of one of those stray particles knocking out an important chunk of DNA has increased.

This risk is impossible to eliminate completely; as I said before, you get a higher dose just from sleeping next to someone, so even if veganism and naturopathy worked and you followed as cancer-free a lifestyle as possible, you could still get cancer from the particles emitted by your significant other, or from cosmic rays, or by the minerals in the rock you picked up on the beach. Having a genetic code means being vulnerable to corruption, and beyond a certain point, there's not much you can do about minimizing your risk.

So, are vaccines to blame? So far the research says no, which means that they either aren't, or that the increase they give is so small it's impossible to separate from other influences. Suppose they do represent an increased risk, as most things do. Are they worth it? YES. Part of the reason more people are dying of cancer in their 70s is because they're not dying of smallpox or polio in their 20s and 30s, and it's because of vaccines.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'd like to point out after seeing World War Z this thread has become doubly funny.

 

[FamoFunk]

Anyone who think vaccines are bad, and doesn't get them (unless medical reason) is a fucking idiot. It's not just your life your're saving, but those who reply on herd immunity because they're too ill to have the jabs themselves, pregnant, old etc. I actually cannot get my head around anyone who objects to them?

Summed up: People who don't jab up, unless for medical reasons, are fucking idiots.

 

[VoidWanderer]

I think a good counter-point to the 'Vaccines don't save lives', would be 'And neither do seat belts.'

While they try and counter your point use their own arguements against them.

Unless they agree, in which case it's check and mate.

>.>

True, but then you can feel happy that their lifespan is likely to be considerably shorter than people with a functioning brain.

 

[Leg End]

So maybe... something is very wrong.

Something is wrong. Somewhere.
Just, no one knows where.
And where there is something wrong, you'll not easily prove it.

My money is on Civilization.

EDIT: Whoah, that is the last time I post before reading the whole thread.
I feel like I'm miles behind. :/

 

[The White Hunter]

I saw someone make this comment earlier and it reminded me that apparently there's a number of "anti-vaccine" people out there, people who think it's all nonsense and even causes a number of very serious illnesses.
If I remember right, Michelle Bachmann said something similar and since then a lot of people seemed to really rally against it - claiming everything from mental illness, mind control or even death as being the end result of getting these simple injections.

If it were people arguing against evolution or something then I wouldn't really care. I mean, you're ignoring a massive pile of evidence but nobody is getting hurt if you think everything just popped into existence. But with vaccines, peoples lives are actually at stake. I can't imagine how many children might have died because of these nut-jobs.

I just don't understand what goes through peoples head sometimes.

We could solve the whole problem quite simply:

If you refuse a vaccine for say, TB, then are admitted to hospital with TB, you should be turned away and posthumously awarded a darwin award participation medal.

 

[xDarc]

Suppose they do represent an increased risk, as most things do. Are they worth it? YES.

Well at least you admit it. Thanks for that.

Cancer causing vaccines would be as big a concern as NSA spying, they're only doing it to keep you safe, to save lives, so who cares.

But yeah, I took a look at a lot of numbers, mostly in America, and cancer rates are up for everyone. Breast cancer in women under 50 was at a record recently. For middle aged men, it's testicular or GI cancers, bowel/colon/stomach, etc. It has nothing to do with longevity as a risk factor and more people living longer when the people getting more cancer are middle aged, young adults and children as well.

Even the title of this thread is misleading. I don't think there's anyone who really believes vaccines don't work, but there have been recalls, there have been deaths, they are not 100% safe; nothing is. But how safe are they? To even to call that into question, it's just a dog pile of people attacking. I'm not going to deal with that.

I will probably vaccinate my kids, but I won't follow the recommended schedule which has them taking so many shots at once. I will spread them out so their immune system has time to recover after each. So there it is, now tell me my kids deserve to die or I deserve to be put in jail for not doing what a doctor says, for not believing in big pharma, or any other institutions that people today act like is the new religion.

 

[zefiris]

but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either.

My grandfather genuinely died of peanut allergies fourty years ago, allergies have been around forever. Gluten intolerance has been known for way over a century, we only figured out the exact reasons way later.

You being ignorant of something doesn't mean it didn't exist. Or that somehow vaccines are magically to blame somehow, and not the TONS of unneeded, untested chemicals that you get in your cheap food so it's cheaper to produce for food companies.

Odd how you nutters never consider THAT particular issue. You only get a few vaccine shots, and vaccines are carefully monitored.
You eat every day, and nobody actually monitors it properly.

Case in point, I can think of several different, but legal, food indrigents (usually coloring or artificial flavoring) that actually do raise your cancer rate. But no peep from the anti-vaccine folks about this. I really wonder why that is.

 

[Quaxar]

Suppose they do represent an increased risk, as most things do. Are they worth it? YES.

Well at least you admit it. Thanks for that.

Cancer causing vaccines would be as big a concern as NSA spying, they're only doing it to keep you safe, to save lives, so who cares.

But yeah, I took a look at a lot of numbers, mostly in America, and cancer rates are up for everyone. Breast cancer in women under 50 was at a record recently. For middle aged men, it's testicular or GI cancers, bowel/colon/stomach, etc. It has nothing to do with longevity as a risk factor and more people living longer when the people getting more cancer are middle aged, young adults and children as well.

Say, do you ever notice that you make a lot of claims while at the same time giving no actual sources for them?
And to set a good example I can source that claim by reminding you of the recent GMO thread in R&P where you didn't even know what the papers you were referring to actually said.

Even the title of this thread is misleading. I don't think there's anyone who really believes vaccines don't work, but there have been recalls, there have been deaths, they are not 100% safe; nothing is. But how safe are they? To even to call that into question, it's just a dog pile of people attacking. I'm not going to deal with that.

I agree... it's a shame people trust decades of working vaccination and no evidence whatsoever of them standing in relation to Autism, cancer or any other kind of serious or permanent decease over your claims and one youtube video.

I will probably vaccinate my kids, but I won't follow the recommended schedule which has them taking so many shots at once. I will spread them out so their immune system has time to recover after each. So there it is, now tell me my kids deserve to die or I deserve to be put in jail for not doing what a doctor says, for not believing in big pharma, or any other institutions that people today act like is the new religion.

religion" <url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/learningzone/clips/is-football-the-new-religion/12605.html>these days [http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/global-warming-religion-5912388]. So that's basically become a meaningless sentence.

And your kids don't deserve to die, that's why they should be vaccinated...