"Vaccines don't save lives"

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ryo02

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Oct 8, 2007
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medicine/vaccines/etc etc are all well and good and save more lives than they ever could damage most of the time at least.

but before we had access to those our population kept itself pretty steady relatively speaking but now ... not so much.

its really gonna be a problem in the coming decades if we don't think of something.
 

xDarc

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Feb 19, 2009
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Dirty Hipsters said:
We HAVE actually come a long way since the 1990s.

Remember how in the early 1990s people didn't believe in/understand/use DNA evidence?
What does that have to do with the rise in cancer? They did biopsies in the 1990s, they do biopsies now. Despite advances in research that further an understanding, the primary method of detection has not changed.
 

fix-the-spade

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Feb 25, 2008
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xDarc said:
The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.
Use of artificial flavourings, high fructose corn syrup, decreasing air quality, increasing amounts of pollution in sea food, increased refined sugar intake, increasingly 'clean' living leading to decrease (or over compensation) in immune response, improving cancer diagnosis and treatment, pick them all because they're all contributing.

A thousand other things are too, but vaccines are not, they help in all the best ways.

If we could get the western world to stop filling everyone's food with shit, whilst getting the eastern world (who am I kidding, ALL the world) to stop dropping industrial waste and plastics into the ocean, that would help, as it, enjoy our poisonous environment.
 

SecondPrize

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There's a lot of ground between "vaccines don't do anything and cause all of the autism" and "vaccines save everybody and have never hurt anyone." This is one of those debates that have been going on a while where the most vocal participants are firmly entrenched on one side or the other. I think vaccines are great and there are also dangers associated with them.
 

Fellstorm

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Jan 28, 2013
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xDarc said:
The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.
Nope, nothings wrong, at least with the vaccines.
I'm studying Biochemistry with molecular medicine at undergrad level at the moment, and have a pretty good knowledge of how these things really work. Vaccines work, and incredibly well. Smallpox? Gone. Polio? Almost gone. Malaria? On its way out. There are so many diseases which were massive killers and we are now rid of them. How? Vaccines. The herd effect protects even those who refuse vaccination.
Are the vaccines you got significantly different to the ones we give today? No, not really. Think about it for a minute.If the vaccines work perfectly, why change them? If the vaccines do not work perfectly, then an improved version would be developed, not one that increases the risk of allergies.

So why do we hear about an increase in allergies in children? Two reasons.
1. There isn't much else health related to worry about, apart from the occasional influenza mutation.
2. Far superior diagnosis, even compared to 15-20 years ago.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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xDarc said:
The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.
Well, you can blame it on vaccines... or you could blame it on dozens of other factors.

Obesity, for instance. There is a big link between obesity and cancer.

In fact, I'd say that's MUCH more likely of a culprit than vaccines.
 

xDarc

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Feb 19, 2009
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Fellstorm said:
Nope, nothings wrong, at least with the vaccines.
Here's a guy who developed 36 vaccines talking about some of the fun stuff he found in vaccines developed at Merck:
 

Angelous Wang

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Oct 18, 2011
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Vaccines can never give you the illnesses or disease that they prevent, 100% scientific fact, as much so as gravity.

Most vaccines work by injecting you with an already dead piece of the illnesses or disease, once your body's immune system locates this dead sample it then creates the correct antibodies to destroy the sample.

Then boom, your body knows how to make the correct antibodies to destroy said illnesses or disease if you ever get a live version in the future.

No risk at all.

Any side effects are caused by ether your own body reacting and testing the sample to find out how to destroy it or are caused by whatever extra drugs are put into the vaccine, the extra drugs are needed to ether preserve the dead illnesses or disease long enough for you to destroy it or help guide your body to creating the correct antibodies easier/quicker.

Of course people have been stretch-linking most of these extra drugs to problems for years now, which is the secondary source of all the vaccines are bad rubbish.
 

GonzoGamer

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Apr 9, 2008
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It comes down to trusting or not trusting the pharmaceutical companies. They have been known to rush things both in development and fda approval. They also "recommend" a lot more vaccines than when we were kids.
I'm lucky to have found a pediatrician who knows what vaccines are necessary and which ones are just put out there because Pfiser makes a lot of money pushing it.
Yes you shouldn't believe the nutjobs on the internet but you also shouldn't think the big pharmaceutical companies are after anything more than money.
 

JazzJack2

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Feb 10, 2013
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xDarc said:
Fellstorm said:
Nope, nothings wrong, at least with the vaccines.
Here's a guy who developed 36 vaccines talking about some of the fun stuff he found in vaccines developed at Merck:
Wow a youtube video I am so convinced! Yeah comeback when you have a peer reviewed scientific paper that shows vaccines are dangerous.
 

Raggedstar

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Jul 5, 2011
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I'll just throw it out there and say I had a nasty reaction to a vaccine last year (it was required for my co-op). I was scared it was anaphylactic shock, but thankfully it wasn't. Basically my head was swimming about 5 minutes afterwards and my body was tremoring. Felt like it was getting harder to breathe too, but not like anaphylaxis. It's not unusual for me to be reactive to vaccines, but even after collapsing not too long afterward on other vaccines, doctors respond with a resounding "meh". The ones I had the biggest reactions with were Hepatitis B and the one I mentioned first was MMR (measels, mumps, rubella), both are common vaccines to give children. Considering the reactions I get and the fact that no one seems to be giving a damn, you better fucking believe I'm upset.

I deal with vaccines every day, but more in the animal context as a veterinary technician. While it is important for cats and dogs to be vaccinated (otherwise you risk rabies, URIs, parvo, distemper, and other potentially fatal and very contagious diseases), I do know the crap that can happen when vaccines go wrong. Cats especially are very sensitive and vaccines are seen to be a direct link to cancer. This isn't "anti-vaccine conspiracy" stuff either, but something with direct medical evidence that I was taught in college and is even warned on the carton of vaccines. Look up feline injection-site fibrosarcoma. This is a malignant cancer and prognosis isn't good. That's the reason why vaccines are typically done in the legs of animals, so if a cancer does happen, they can amputate the limb (but even that doesn't eliminate the chance that it already spread elsewhere. Only gives 2 years or so). The rabies and feline leukemia vaccine are the most common to have this kind of reaction. Happens in dogs too (another reactive one for them is leptospirosis), but not as frequently. In school we learned to not vaccinate more than we need to. Vaccinate according to health, and risk of exposure. In North America, rabies is the only mandatory vaccine that needs to be (typically) updated every 3 years.

Something also interesting to note is that the thing a lot of people are concerned about are adjuvants (chemical additives to vaccines). Animal vaccines don't typically contain adjuvants (especially feline ones), while humans do. Most vaccines for animals also don't tend to contain mercury or mercury products either. Some food for thought.
 

Quaxar

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Sep 21, 2009
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Jarek Mace said:
Quaxar said:
Jarek Mace said:
Y'know OP, it's funny that you also happen to talk of arguing against evolution because the same people who argue that vaccines don't save lives are going to be the same people that prove evolution to be correct (or at least natural selection)
I'm not sure if you're making a case against vaccines or evolution but I'm pretty certain you're opposing one of those two... do tell me if I'm wrong though.
In simples, I was saying that those who argue that "vaccines are dangerous" will prove the theory of evolution to be correct when they die as as result of this irrational belief, therefore proving the theory of evolution.
Oooh, right. That does make the most sense, I'm sorry I suspected you of being a YEC or anti-vaccinist.

xDarc said:
People don't necessarily understand the science behind vaccines.
This is probably a moot point but do you?
 

f1r2a3n4k5

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Jun 30, 2008
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This sums up the long and short of the topic: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com

Simple fact is; a vaccine isn't going to kill you. The same can't be said about any of the old-world diseases vaccines have helped eliminate.

Edit: Link fixed.
 

Anezay

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Apr 1, 2010
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f1r2a3n4k5 said:
This sums up the long and short of the topic: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html.

Simple fact is; a vaccine isn't going to kill you. The same can't be said about any of the old-world diseases vaccines have helped eliminate.
Broken link, 404'd.
 

xDarc

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Feb 19, 2009
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DVS BSTrD said:
There is a lot more changing in the world then just vaccines you know.
Yes, people started eating GMO in the 1990s too, but there's another sacred cow scientists can't or won't do serious research on the safety of it. I know you probably had something different in mind, but for me the bottom line is kids today get more vaccines than ever, eating food that hasn't even been in use for a generation yet- and cancer is sky rocketing and no one wants to even do the research for fear people won't take vaccines and herd immunity will be lost, for fear of having to reinvest billions into having to come up with something else, just for fear, period.
 

f1r2a3n4k5

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Jun 30, 2008
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Anezay said:
f1r2a3n4k5 said:
This sums up the long and short of the topic: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html.

Simple fact is; a vaccine isn't going to kill you. The same can't be said about any of the old-world diseases vaccines have helped eliminate.
Broken link, 404'd.
Thanks. It should be fixed now. The site was going by a different name for awhile 'cause Jenny McCarthy, while a big player in the "VACCINES ARE MONSTERS" turf; was not the only one.
 

JazzJack2

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Feb 10, 2013
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xDarc said:
DVS BSTrD said:
There is a lot more changing in the world then just vaccines you know.
Yes, people started eating GMO in the 1990s too, but there's another sacred cow scientists can't or won't do serious research on the safety of it. I know you probably had something different in mind, but for me the bottom line is kids today get more vaccines than ever, eating food that hasn't even been in use for a generation yet- and cancer is sky rocketing and no one wants to even do the research for fear people won't take vaccines and herd immunity will be lost, for fear of having to reinvest billions into having to come up with something else, just for fear, period.
Attacking Gm food as well I see, may as well go full tin foil hat I guess. Also just so you know cancer rates are going because people are living longer (age is the biggest risk factor for cancer)
 

Xanadu84

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Apr 9, 2008
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Its pretty simple, really.

1) This asshole nammed Wakefield ran a criminally negligent study that made up a lot of shit to help a client sue a vaccine manufacturer. Is slipped into a peer reviewed journal, it got some celebrity support because the idea of something so common being so dangerous and explaining something so poorly understood (Autism) appeals to people, and once that happened, any proof to the contrary sounds like a coverup, because people are really bad at scientific methodology.

2) People were willing to throw vaccines to the wolves because the threat doesn't seem real. If you grew up in the modern day and age, Polio doesn't seem like much of a threat because of vaccines. People have a hard time understanding the scope of the horror of preventable illnesses because they have been largely forgotten in the developed world.

3) In a sense, there is a logic here. Vaccine do carry a (Negligible) risk. You can get terribly sick, or die, from vaccines. The odds are practically zero, they are NOTHING compared to pre-vaccine times, and you can't get Autism, but its these kinds of dangers that prime the imagination. If your child doesn't get a vaccine...then chances are, nothing will happen. You have eliminated a negligible risk, and still have the advantage of herd immunity. If everyone else is immune, then you don't really have any vectors for infection. That makes anti-vaccination a tempting philosophy, because if you alone follow it, theres really no risk. But once more people ignore vaccines, the odds of infection increase exponentially. At first, there appears to be no downside, and people can project whatever terrible ideas they have regarding vaccinations without fear, but eventually momentum builds and people start dying. First its the non-vaccinated kids, and then the vaccinated kids (In MUCH lower percentages) because vaccines arn't 100%. But at this point, you have invested yourself in the worldview

Anti-vaccination is sort of like a pyramid scheme: It pays off initially to the few (Though the payoff is practically 0), but as it builds, it gets exponentially worse for everyone. Eventually, people are trying to eliminate a 1 in a hundred million chance of an allergic reaction at the cost of a 1 in a hundred chance of dying from mumps, and passing that infection on to your neighbor. Since people are very bad at distinguishing between a small but significant chance and an infinitesimally tiny chance, their cost/benefit analysis for vaccines gets thrown horribly out of whack, and theres a lot of room for error there to amount to a lot of dead kids. Thats the reason why it works that way. Its still absolutely unacceptable.
 

Souplex

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Jul 29, 2008
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The origin of the anti-vaccination movement is rooted in an old British medical magazine. A law firm funded a fraudulent article in the magazine linking rising vaccination rates to autism rates. (The increased autism rates were simply due to the expanded definitions of autism and better methods of diagnosis.) They later had to print a redaction, but the movement was already off the ground.