Valve haters, vs Valve fanboys. DRM and Why do some people hate Valve and steam?

[Nicholas Chandler-Yates]

Ok so I was thinking about this:
There are lots of Valve fanboys out there, myself included to be perfectly honest, and it is clear *why* we respect valve so much. They have revolutionized gaming on PC, they provide games at better prices in a very convenient manner. Steam is simply more convenient than any other option.

A big pro that increased my respect for them is their support of MacOSX and Linux gaming.
Also, STEAM SALES, seriously.


and yet there are others that seemingly hate valve with a passion. Is this because of the fact that Steam includes DRM? or because of other reasons?

Because seriously Steam *could NOT* be what it is today if they had taken a stance similar to gog.com. DRM was necessary during the early implementation of steam to get other publishers on board with the platform (noDRM is simply not something many publishers are even willing to do, even today) just look at GoG.com, it is mostly old-school games, not new releases.

I AM NOT arguing that DRM works (quite the opposite), rather I personally think it was a necessary evil that steam and valve have had to live with because it meant getting everyone in the same boat.

Please let me know what you think about what I have said, or if there is another reason that you love/hate valve other than the reasons above. Or if you disagree with me about DRM.

 

[lacktheknack]

1. Anti-fan backlash (It has too many fans, therefore I must act as a counterweight)

2. Irrelevance (Console gamers couldn't give less of a rip about Steam, so the constant Steam praise is annoying)

2(episode 2). Inability to Count to Three

4. Unpopular EULA terms

5. Some believe the move to Steam Machines is questionable at best

6. They don't like the rabidness of many Valve fanboys, and dislike the company by proxy

7. Because reasons

This is more or less the most comprehensive list I can come up with.

 

[MysticSlayer]

It might have less to do with hating the company and more to do with the fact that they seem to get a free pass on things other companies get a lot of hate for. Whether or not they really are getting a free pass is up for debate, but I think it has more to do with hating the attitude people have towards Valve rather than hating Valve themselves. I mean, some people have had bad experiences with their games or with Steam, and some people likely have certain ethical issues with the company, but that doesn't seem to be where most people are coming from.

 

[Nicholas Chandler-Yates]

1. Anti-fan backlash (It has too many fans, therefore I must act as a counterweight)

2. Irrelevance (Console gamers couldn't give less of a rip about Steam, so the constant Steam praise is annoying)

2(episode 2). Inability to Count to Three

4. Unpopular EULA terms

5. Some believe the move to Steam Machines is questionable at best

6. They don't like the rabidness of many Valve fanboys, and dislike the company by proxy

7. They just do

This is more or less the most comprehensive list I can come up with.

yeah but are the EULA terms really worse than console EULAs? If so in what ways?

 

[lacktheknack]

1. Anti-fan backlash (It has too many fans, therefore I must act as a counterweight)

2. Irrelevance (Console gamers couldn't give less of a rip about Steam, so the constant Steam praise is annoying)

2(episode 2). Inability to Count to Three

4. Unpopular EULA terms

5. Some believe the move to Steam Machines is questionable at best

6. They don't like the rabidness of many Valve fanboys, and dislike the company by proxy

7. They just do

This is more or less the most comprehensive list I can come up with.

yeah but are the EULA terms really worse than console EULAs? If so in what ways?

I don't know the console EULAs.

What has everyone's panties in a twist, though, is a clause in the Steam EULA that precludes class-action lawsuits.

I think it's all very silly, as the EULA won't hold up in court if there's a legitimate reason to host a class-action lawsuit.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

Well I don't hate Valve but I do hate steam. It has good sales sure but aside from that the program is horrendously bad. Slow to load, ugly UI, constant updates and inconsistent download speeds are my chief complaints with it. Also outside of the sales it's regular prices are absurd.

 

[Nicholas Chandler-Yates]

Well I don't hate Valve but I do hate steam. It has good sales sure but aside from that the program is horrendously bad. Slow to load, ugly UI, constant updates and inconsistent download speeds are my chief complaints with it. Also outside of the sales it's regular prices are absurd.

Absurd as opposed to what? Console prices? BWAhahahaha.

Edit: Regular updates are a GOOD thing, and I haven't noticed inconsistent download speeds, at least not any more inconsistent than the internet in the countries I've been living in (china and New Zealand), are other download sites and/or console digital stores more consistent in download speeds?

For me in New Zealand, a couple years ago they built a domestic Server house that has all steam games on it, meaning that you don't have to download over overseas fiberoptic, this means its a lot faster. Then the made a deal with Telstraclear that means that downloading from this server doesn't use any of your monthly bandwidth. Also multiplayer ames run over this server, meaning that latency between Nz gamers is much less on steam than other platforms. (including consoles)

 

[ShinyCharizard]

Well I don't hate Valve but I do hate steam. It has good sales sure but aside from that the program is horrendously bad. Slow to load, ugly UI, constant updates and inconsistent download speeds are my chief complaints with it. Also outside of the sales it's regular prices are absurd.

Absurd as opposed to what? Console prices? BWAhahahaha.

Yes. Absurd compared to console prices. I can pick up a console title for $69 dollars brand new while steam regularly charges 79-89 dollars (even $110 for certain titles).

 

[Nicholas Chandler-Yates]

Well I don't hate Valve but I do hate steam. It has good sales sure but aside from that the program is horrendously bad. Slow to load, ugly UI, constant updates and inconsistent download speeds are my chief complaints with it. Also outside of the sales it's regular prices are absurd.

Absurd as opposed to what? Console prices? BWAhahahaha.

Yes. Absurd compared to console prices. I can pick up a console title for $69 dollars brand new while steam regularly charges 79-89 dollars (even $110 for certain titles).

No, just no, I just did a search of Steam and there are only half a dozen games above 60-70 dollar price point, almost all of which are bundle packs or 'premium' editions. I know sometimes prices are different in different countries so maybe thats it.

 

[ender1200]

I can pick up a console title for $69 dollars brand new while steam regularly charges 79-89 dollars (even $110 for certain titles).

No, just no, I just did a search of Steam and there are only half a dozen games above 60-70 dollar price point, almost all of which are bundle packs or 'premium' editions. I know sometimes prices are different in different countries so maybe thats it.

Steam prices very according to your country. This usually falls down to weather said country taxes video games. South Americans and Australians have it worse from what i have heard.

 

[black_knight1337]

While I wouldn't go as far as saying I hate them, there are a number of things that annoy me about them. The first thing is that age old joke that they can't count to three. Way back in 2006 they said that the Half Life 2 episodes would be "a trilogy that will conclude by Christmas 2007". Well it's six years later and it still hasn't happened.

Then there is Steam itself. Regular prices aren't that competitive, it's usually either the same or cheaper here to get physical copies. Then there's also the really dodgy downloads. Usual downloads for me on most sites I get around 100-150KB/s. On Steam though it's 0-100KB/s with the occasional spike to 150. It barely supports slow connections as well. My old connection was going at ~10KB/s. I couldn't install any games from Steam, I couldn't download any updates(or those that would work would only do about half) and I couldn't buy anything from their store.

The last thing that annoys me, which I find to be a really big deal, is the fact that they get all this praise for what is ultimately a small time developers work. There are only two of their IPs that aren't like that, namely Half-Life and Ricochet. The rest have been a result of them taking a small studio/team and giving them a heap of resources to make what they already have even better. Outside of those games there is Team Fortress, Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, Portal, Left 4 Dead, Alien Swarm and Dota.

Team Fortress started out as a mod for Quake, the team behind it then started work on a stand-alone version. Then Valve offers them a job to firstly port the mod to Source(Team Fortress Classic) and make their stand-alone with Source(Team Fortress 2). Counter-Strike started out as a Half-Life mod, then as it started to gather a bit of momentum Valve stepped in and gave the then developers a bunch of resources. Day of Defeat also started off as a Half-Life mod and the developers, again, joined up with Valve to make a stand-alone happen. Then there's Portal, which is the most interesting story of the lot. This one is a spiritual successor to a student project called Narbacular Drop, after which it's team got hired by Valve to create what is now known as Portal. Left 4 Dead started off at Turtle Rock Studios and was pretty close to completion when Valve hired them and threw together a $10 million marketing campaign. Alien Swarm started off as a mod for Unreal Tournament 2004. After it's success the team set out to remake it on the Source engine after which Valve hired the team. Last but not least is Dota, this one started off as a very popular map for Warcraft 3. IceFrog, the creator of the original DotA, was then hired by Valve to make a sequel.

Sure, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. They take small time developers with great concepts and help them gain the success they deserve. But if they are just throwing resources behind these things, why not just act as a publisher? Instead they hire them so they can ultimately take all the credit for them and the success that comes with it.

Of course they do a lot of good as well. Namely their sales and their ideologies but the good doesn't take away the bad, it only takes the edge of it.

 

[Strelok]

I don't know the console EULAs.

What has everyone's panties in a twist, though, is a clause in the Steam EULA that precludes class-action lawsuits.

I think it's all very silly, as the EULA won't hold up in court if there's a legitimate reason to host a class-action lawsuit.

Clearly you don't know the console EULA, best read number 7 for a nice surprise.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/legal/livetou

I'll help you even.

7. BINDING ARBITRATION AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER IF YOU LIVE IN THE United States

This section applies to any dispute EXCEPT DISPUTEs RELATING TO THE ENFORCEMENT OR VALIDITY OF your, YOUR licensors?, MICROSOFT?S, OR microsoft?s LICENSORS? INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS. The term ?dispute? means any dispute, action, or other controversy between you and Microsoft concerning the Services (including their price) or this Agreement, whether in contract, warranty, tort, statute, regulation, ordinance, or any other legal or equitable basis. ?Dispute? will be given the broadest possible meaning allowable under law.

7.1 Notice of Dispute. In the event of a dispute, you or Microsoft must give the other a Notice of Dispute, which is a written statement that sets forth the name, address and contact information of the party giving it, the facts giving rise to the dispute, and the relief requested. You must send any Notice of Dispute by U.S. Mail to Microsoft Corporation, ATTN: LCA ARBITRATION, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052-6399, U.S.A. A form is available on the Legal and Corporate Affairs (LCA) website (http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=245499). Microsoft will send any Notice of Dispute to you by U.S. Mail to your address if we have it, or otherwise to your email address. You and Microsoft will attempt to resolve any dispute through informal negotiation within 60 days from the date the Notice of Dispute is sent. After 60 days, you or Microsoft may commence arbitration.

7.2 Small claims court. You may also litigate any dispute in small claims court in your county of residence or King County, Washington, U.S.A., if the dispute meets all requirements to be heard in the small claims court. You may litigate in small claims court whether or not you negotiated informally first.

7.3 Binding arbitration. If you and Microsoft do not resolve any dispute by informal negotiation or in small claims court, any other effort to resolve the dispute will be conducted exclusively by binding arbitration governed by the Federal Arbitration Act (?FAA?). You are giving up the right to litigate (or participate in as a party or class member) all disputes in court before a judge or jury. Instead, all disputes will be resolved before a neutral arbitrator, whose decision will be final except for a limited right of appeal under the FAA. Any court with jurisdiction over the parties may enforce the arbitrator?s award.

7.4 Class action waiver. Any proceedings to resolve or litigate any dispute in any forum will be conducted solely on an individual basis. Neither you nor Microsoft will seek to have any dispute heard as a class action, private attorney general action, or in any other proceeding in which either party acts or proposes to act in a representative capacity. No arbitration or proceeding will be combined with another without the prior written consent of all parties to all affected arbitrations or proceedings.

7.5 Arbitration procedure. Any arbitration will be conducted by the American Arbitration Association (the ?AAA?) under its Commercial Arbitration Rules. If you are an individual and use the Services for personal or household use, or if the value of the dispute is $75,000 or less whether or not you are an individual or how you use the Services, its Supplementary Procedures for Consumer-Related Disputes will also apply. For more information, see www.adr.org or call 1-800-778-7879. To commence arbitration, submit the form available on the Legal and Corporate Affairs (LCA) website (http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=245497) to the AAA. You agree to commence arbitration only in your county of residence or in King County, Washington, U.S.A. Microsoft agrees to commence arbitration only in your county of residence. You may request a telephonic or in-person hearing by following the AAA rules. In a dispute involving $10,000 or less, any hearing will be telephonic unless the arbitrator finds good cause to hold an in-person hearing instead. The arbitrator may award the same damages to you individually as a court could. The arbitrator may award declaratory or injunctive relief only to you individually, and only to the extent required to satisfy your individual claim.

7.6 Arbitration fees and incentives.

7.6.1 Disputes involving $75,000 or less. Microsoft will promptly reimburse your filing fees and pay the AAA?s and arbitrator?s fees and expenses. If you reject Microsoft?s last written settlement offer made before the arbitrator was appointed (?Microsoft?s last written offer?), your dispute goes all the way to an arbitrator?s decision (called an ?award?), and the arbitrator awards you more than Microsoft?s last written offer, Microsoft will give you three incentives: (i) pay the greater of the award or $1,000; (ii) pay twice your reasonable attorney?s fees, if any; and (iii) reimburse any expenses (including expert witness fees and costs) that your attorney reasonably accrues for investigating, preparing, and pursuing your claim in arbitration. The arbitrator will determine the amount of fees, costs, and expenses unless you and Microsoft agree on them.

Nearly the same wording as Steam.

 

[Nicholas Chandler-Yates]

While I wouldn't go as far as saying I hate them, there are a number of things that annoy me about them. The first thing is that age old joke that they can't count to three. Way back in 2006 they said that the Half Life 2 episodes would be "a trilogy that will conclude by Christmas 2007". Well it's six years later and it still hasn't happened.

Then there is Steam itself. Regular prices aren't that competitive, it's usually either the same or cheaper here to get physical copies. Then there's also the really dodgy downloads. Usual downloads for me on most sites I get around 100-150KB/s. On Steam though it's 0-100KB/s with the occasional spike to 150. It barely supports slow connections as well. My old connection was going at ~10KB/s. I couldn't install any games from Steam, I couldn't download any updates(or those that would work would only do about half) and I couldn't buy anything from their store.

The last thing that annoys me, which I find to be a really big deal, is the fact that they get all this praise for what is ultimately a small time developers work. There are only two of their IPs that aren't like that, namely Half-Life and Ricochet. The rest have been a result of them taking a small studio/team and giving them a heap of resources to make what they already have even better. Outside of those games there is Team Fortress, Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, Portal, Left 4 Dead, Alien Swarm and Dota.

Team Fortress started out as a mod for Quake, the team behind it then started work on a stand-alone version. Then Valve offers them a job to firstly port the mod to Source(Team Fortress Classic) and make their stand-alone with Source(Team Fortress 2). Counter-Strike started out as a Half-Life mod, then as it started to gather a bit of momentum Valve stepped in and gave the then developers a bunch of resources. Day of Defeat also started off as a Half-Life mod and the developers, again, joined up with Valve to make a stand-alone happen. Then there's Portal, which is the most interesting story of the lot. This one is a spiritual successor to a student project called Narbacular Drop, after which it's team got hired by Valve to create what is now known as Portal. Left 4 Dead started off at Turtle Rock Studios and was pretty close to completion when Valve hired them and threw together a $10 million marketing campaign. Alien Swarm started off as a mod for Unreal Tournament 2004. After it's success the team set out to remake it on the Source engine after which Valve hired the team. Last but not least is Dota, this one started off as a very popular map for Warcraft 3. IceFrog, the creator of the original DotA, was then hired by Valve to make a sequel.

Sure, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. They take small time developers with great concepts and help them gain the success they deserve. But if they are just throwing resources behind these things, why not just act as a publisher? Instead they hire them so they can ultimately take all the credit for them and the success that comes with it.

Of course they do a lot of good as well. Namely their sales and their ideologies but the good doesn't take away the bad, it only takes the edge of it.

A good sum up of the origins of valve's 'Original' IP

as for your comment about why aren't they just a publisher, you are underestimating the fact that they don't just throw resources at these small time guys that they hire, they also throw in-house people at them. A lot of smart guys work for valve, these smart guys are what made narbacular drop from a mechanic demo into an amazing game franchise complete with memorable characters. If you think about it, how many millions of small time guys thinking up ideas out there? Of these maybe a few hundred will think up something truly profound. Thats a ratio of at least 10000 to 1. Lets say that valve's guys are so much better at coming up with new ideas that they have ten times this ratio, thats still 1000 people needed to come up with a profound new game idea. Valve only has 300ish.

I know its weird to talk like that, but its a numbers game, its just far more likely for one person out of a group of millions to come up with an amazing idea than for a guy in a company with 300 people. Ideas like this can't be FORCED, many times they just come in a flash of inspiration.

Knowing this, all companies do the same thing, they realize that there are only so many truly original ideas that their employees can think of, so if someone else comes up with something amazing, they bring them on. Apple, Windows, Google, Valve... people act like this is a travesty, but its not. Its a numbers game. there are more people outside these companies, therefore it is more likely for a truly original idea to originate from outside the company than inside it.

 

[Miss G.]

1. Anti-fan backlash (It has too many fans, therefore I must act as a counterweight)

2. Irrelevance (Console gamers couldn't give less of a rip about Steam, so the constant Steam praise is annoying)

2(episode 2). Inability to Count to Three

4. Unpopular EULA terms

5. Some believe the move to Steam Machines is questionable at best

6. They don't like the rabidness of many Valve fanboys, and dislike the company by proxy

7. Because reasons

This is more or less the most comprehensive list I can come up with.

You ninja'd me- numbers 2 & 6 were gonna be my reasons, 6 a little more than 2. The mere fact that I've had some fanboys try to "convert" me from my console lifestyle grates heavily on my nerves whenever I see the word 'VALVE' and makes me hate the company (instead of continuing my blissful ignorance of them) for inspiring such people.

 

[Nicholas Chandler-Yates]

Snip

Clearly you don't know the console EULA, best read number 7 for a nice surprise.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/legal/livetou

I'll help you even.

Snip

7.4 Class action waiver. Any proceedings to resolve or litigate any dispute in any forum will be conducted solely on an individual basis. Neither you nor Microsoft will seek to have any dispute heard as a class action, private attorney general action, or in any other proceeding in which either party acts or proposes to act in a representative capacity. No arbitration or proceeding will be combined with another without the prior written consent of all parties to all affected arbitrations or proceedings.

Snip

Thanks for doing the legwork here, it goes to show that $team is covering their asses legally in exactly the same way that M$, $ony and ?A with Origin, this certainly gives them more power over consumers than they had previously, and thats not cool. The real question is, out of these four companies who do you trust the most? All I can say is, it ain't Microsoft, and it definitely ain't EA..

 

[Windcaler]

Theres a big difference between hating valve and being critical of them. Im sure there are some actual haters out there but here on the escapist Ive just seen some highly critical responses to some of the things theyve done. People are critical of EA, Activision, THQ (when it was around), Bethesda, and Ubisoft so if your saying that we shouldnt be critical of valve then I have to wonder why they get a free pass. If you're not saying that, ok but try to understand thats the way it sounds to me.

As a developer I really dont care for valve. IMO TF2 is a well balanced if somewhat bland game (outside of the comedy in the various meet the team videos), Left for dead is a worse iteration of Killing floor, Half life (the first one I never played the others) was a bland mess of a game that wasnt all that good in the first place despite some of its revelutionary ideas, Dota2 is just a remake and for me equates to "oh boy, another moba. Like we dont have enough of those already". Perhaps the only game they made that I like was portal but they didnt even make that so much as they wrote it, the original project that spawned portal was made by a group of college students if I recall correctly.

As a hardware developer they've done some interesting things. The idea of the steambox is one I can still get behind if it could only be sold for a reasonable price. Their controller has some good innovation in it but we still need time to test it before we can come to a conclusion thats its good, bad, or mediocre. Then theres these steam machines which have me very confused, I need more information about them before I can form an opinion about them but at the very least Im interested to see how they will affect PC gaming.

Im far more interested in their involvement with the PC market and to be honest Im growing more and more concerned as well. Currently valve doesnt seem like its developing anything so much as its just raking in the cash as they curate steam. Personally Im very much against the ideas of DRM and what it represents so I am also anti-steam on the basis that it is glorified DRM. Steam is also a pretty big resource hog as far as processing power goes which I certainly dislike since I like to get as much power out of my PC as possible. When coupled with any lack of quality control, a greenlight system they dont even curate properly, and developers putting up blatant false advertising steam has a lot of issues. Lets not forget that valve is the ever sleeping snorlax and the only time it acts is from massive outcry

The issues are only complicated more by the fact that a good number of people are looking into and wanting to buy more games from other DDS's.

This may be blasphemy around here but I do not see Valve as the golden god that will carry us away to the promised land. They are a company, they do some good stuff, they do some bad stuff, they do stuff that makes me raise an eyebrow. They do some stuff that should be commended (and is) but at no time should they get a free pass.

 

[Nicholas Chandler-Yates]

Theres a big difference between hating valve and being critical of them. Im sure there are some actual haters out there but here on the escapist Ive just seen some highly critical responses to some of the things theyve done. People are critical of EA, Activision, THQ (when it was around), Bethesda, and Ubisoft so if your saying that we shouldnt be critical of valve then I have to wonder why they get a free pass. If you're not saying that, ok but try to understand thats the way it sounds to me.

As a developer I really dont care for valve. IMO TF2 is a well balanced if somewhat bland game (outside of the comedy in the various meet the team videos), Left for dead is a worse iteration of Killing floor, Half life (the first one I never played the others) was a bland mess of a game that wasnt all that good in the first place despite some of its revelutionary ideas, Dota2 is just a remake and for me equates to "oh boy, another moba. Like we dont have enough of those already". Perhaps the only game they made that I like was portal but they didnt even make that so much as they wrote it, the original project that spawned portal was made by a group of college students if I recall correctly.

As a hardware developer they've done some interesting things. The idea of the steambox is one I can still get behind if it could only be sold for a reasonable price. Their controller has some good innovation in it but we still need time to test it before we can come to a conclusion thats its good, bad, or mediocre. Then theres these steam machines which have me very confused, I need more information about them before I can form an opinion about them but at the very least Im interested to see how they will affect PC gaming.

Im far more interested in their involvement with the PC market and to be honest Im growing more and more concerned as well. Currently valve doesnt seem like its developing anything so much as its just raking in the cash as they curate steam. Personally Im very much against the ideas of DRM and what it represents so I am also anti-steam on the basis that it is glorified DRM. Steam is also a pretty big resource hog as far as processing power goes which I certainly dislike since I like to get as much power out of my PC as possible. When coupled with any lack of quality control, a greenlight system they dont even curate properly, and developers putting up blatant false advertising steam has a lot of issues. Lets not forget that valve is the ever sleeping snorlax and the only time it acts is from massive outcry

The issues are only complicated more by the fact that a good number of people are looking into and wanting to buy more games from other DDS's.

This may be blasphemy around here but I do not see Valve as the golden god that will carry us away to the promised land. They are a company, they do some good stuff, they do some bad stuff, they do stuff that makes me raise an eyebrow. They do some stuff that should be commended (and is) but at no time should they get a free pass.

A well-reasoned post, they definitely should not get a free pass. They shouldn't be making draconian EULA policies 'just because everyone else is'. But they should definitely not be singled out for this reason, especially when microsoft etc instigated these policies well before Valve ever did. I guess MS fanboys have gotten used to being shat upon with shitty anti consumer policies and just take it in their stride, wheres Valve fanboys expected a higher standard.

It still CANNOT be used as an example in the argument "Steam policies are rubbish, therefore my console is better for this reason."

 

[Strelok]

Thanks for doing the legwork here, it goes to show that $team is covering their asses legally in exactly the same way that M$, $ony and ?A with Origin, this certainly gives them more power over consumers than they had previously, and thats not cool. The real question is, out of these four companies who do you trust the most? All I can say is, it ain't Microsoft, and it definitely ain't EA..

No problem, it's number 17 in Sony's PSN EULA.

http://legaldoc.dl.playstation.net/ps3-eula/psn/u/u_tosua_en.html

I think a lot of the hate comes from not really understanding it, as long time PC gamers know what most of us did in the late 80's and through the 90's was pretty bad. Piracy was rampant and I am guilty of it as anyone else was, we didn't think it was hurting anyone, but it was, it was hurting PC gaming. Steam is a Hell of a lot better than what many of us deserve that is for sure, maybe a few years of extreme delayed release dates or no games at all would have kept the complaints to a minimum.

Console gamers complain cause they don't understand it either, as you can see most probably don't even understand what they are signing on to with PSN and XBox Live. Hang around the XBox Live support forum for a day and watch twenty or thirty people a day lose access to everything they downloaded on XBox Live including any points or money on their account just for changing their avatar colour or having a curse word in their Bio.

Steam's method is the future for gaming, as you can see Microsoft already tried it, and they won't give up, if consoles survive another generation I guarantee they will have similar if not identical setup to Steam.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

Well I don't hate Valve but I do hate steam. It has good sales sure but aside from that the program is horrendously bad. Slow to load, ugly UI, constant updates and inconsistent download speeds are my chief complaints with it. Also outside of the sales it's regular prices are absurd.

Absurd as opposed to what? Console prices? BWAhahahaha.

Yes. Absurd compared to console prices. I can pick up a console title for $69 dollars brand new while steam regularly charges 79-89 dollars (even $110 for certain titles).

No, just no, I just did a search of Steam and there are only half a dozen games above 60-70 dollar price point, almost all of which are bundle packs or 'premium' editions. I know sometimes prices are different in different countries so maybe thats it.

That is it. I'm going by the prices as they are in Australia.

 

[Nicholas Chandler-Yates]

Well I don't hate Valve but I do hate steam. It has good sales sure but aside from that the program is horrendously bad. Slow to load, ugly UI, constant updates and inconsistent download speeds are my chief complaints with it. Also outside of the sales it's regular prices are absurd.

Absurd as opposed to what? Console prices? BWAhahahaha.

Yes. Absurd compared to console prices. I can pick up a console title for $69 dollars brand new while steam regularly charges 79-89 dollars (even $110 for certain titles).

No, just no, I just did a search of Steam and there are only half a dozen games above 60-70 dollar price point, almost all of which are bundle packs or 'premium' editions. I know sometimes prices are different in different countries so maybe thats it.

That is it. I'm going by the prices as they are in Australia.

HAHA Steam is cheaper in New Zealand (not console games tho, those things are massively expensive, I saw MW3 for sale for $120 in a shop when it was first released, WTF)
Aus is great but screw their digital game taxes.