Veganism...why?

[Vegan_Doodler]

words

Ok, can I ask what is so laughable about my valid point?

That alone makes me feel compelled to post the video again...ah what the hell


You don't a valid point, you are laughably wrong.

About?

 

[Jammy2003]

-snip-

If you read my post again I think you'll see I didn't suggest replacing eating meat with grain, I said placing it with veg. To clarify, more than one type of vegetable as well. My point is, there are vegans and vegetarians who get by fine, eating a diet that is balanced using other sources, meat is not the only way.

Anything we eat has been linked to all sorts of stuff. Saturated fats found in meat (not found in primary sources of vegan protein) have been linked to various forms of cancer, heart disease and all sorts. I didn't say just eat sugar and grains, I said vegetables. And I'd love to see this source that says too much meat can't cause obesity or heart disease. Please, do share.

You're arguing against points I never made. I never claimed wheat to be the messiah of foods, nor sugar, I said "a lot of people in this world could do with a lot less meat, and a lot more veg". I never claimed RDA gave you exactly what you wanted, only pointed that if in one meal I obtain more than 160% of the apparent minimum (which could be higher if I'd had pepperoni instead of cheese), then there is probably something wrong there. That was all.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

You don't a valid point, you are laughably wrong.

Also this...

I'm not suggesting you stoop to the level on intellegence of a cow, I'm saying, where do you draw the line? Is it just everything below our level?

You may not be suggesting that, Vegan Doodler on the other hand was, I remind you that it was her example that sparked this. I'm just pointing out that her example doesn't work.

Ummmmmm... My be I'm just not getting the right context here but I never sujested you stoop to the level of a cow, and when you are referring to "her", I'm actually a dude, yeah.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

Veganism is a way for idiots to think they're doing something good for animals.

Don't call people idiots.

I'll call whoever I want an idiot.

These people are acting on there moral compass and trying to do what they think is right, that's an honorable way to live a life.

Anyone who blindly follows their moral compass without thinking about how doing so might do MORE damage than if they did nothing at all is a fucking idiot. People who buy Priuses on moral reasons are idiots, as those things do more environmental damage before they're ever purchased than an SUV does over 20 years of heavy use. People who call themselves vegans and buy nothing but mass produced produce are idiots, as their mass produced produce kills far more and in far more painful ways than livestock farming.

Wow, way to represent the species man.

 

[Micalas]

I have the exact same position; if I wouldn't do it to a retarded child, I wouldn't do it to an animal.

Oh, sweet! Now I have a way to justify my meat eating life-style.

 

[ishist]

I would be almost violently opposed to veganism except I have a plan. Our evolution into intelligent sentient beings was dependent on our varied omnivorous diet. I forsee a "The Time Machine" style future where normal Humans will have evolved past most of our handicaps. Vegetarians will have evolved but be entirely dependent on a regimen of vitamins to stave off death. Vegans will have devolved into an exceptionally smug form of lichen, in thrall to their ant overlords.

 

[Deepzound]

As a vegan, I can say that the key to understanding veganism, is investing the time to look into the issue yourself.

I don't have several hours to write up all the arguments (though in short form, they are usually confined to three topics - Environment, Health and Ethics), so in stead I'll recommend watching the following two films as relatively quick primers on veganism:

Earthlings [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys] describes the ethical and environmental reasons for veganism.

Forks over Knives (site [http://www.forksoverknives.com/]) describes the health reasons.

Additionally for the people who prefer books I'd recommend checking out "The China Study [http://www.amazon.com/The-China-Study-Comprehensive-Implications/dp/1932100385]", "Diet for a New America [http://www.amazon.com/Diet-New-America-John-Robbins/dp/0915811812]" and "The World Peace Diet [http://www.amazon.com/The-World-Peace-Diet-ebook/dp/B0013BJHZY]" for a more comprehensive understanding.

 

[Pipotchi]

I would be almost violently opposed to veganism except I have a plan. Our evolution into intelligent sentient beings was dependent on our varied omnivorous diet. I forsee a "The Time Machine" style future where normal Humans will have evolved past most of our handicaps. Vegetarians will have evolved but be entirely dependent on a regimen of vitamins to stave off death. Vegans will have devolved into an exceptionally smug form of lichen, in thrall to their ant overlords.

What about level five vegans? I.e. those that dont eat anything that casts a shadow?

On topic I looked into vegatarianism but its not for me. Good for them though, although they always look miserable at Christmas, eating their Nut loaf or whatever

 

[Calibanbutcher]

I just wanted to drop in real quick, because someone was going on about the health benefits of a vegan diet:
There are none.
The only thing that surely awaits you, the moment you decide to go on a purely vegan diet without supplements, is death by Vitamin B12 deficiency.

Comparing average meat-eater diet to the average vegan one? Yes, there are. No eating the crap that is commonly in meat. Not eating the large amount of saturated fats that have been linked to heart disease and cancer.
Compared to the ideal meat-eater diet with good quality meat and a controlled diet making sure you get exactly what you need? I don't really know if there is any benefits then, but how many people follow that?

Because you can't get B12 from all the vegan products that are fortified to cover that problem, such as soy milk or cereals. Jesus, I live with a no supplement vegan, they haven't been collapsing or dying yet. Why the hostility bro?

Yeah, I guess that it doesn't matter... -snip-

Or/and what he said.

Please bear in mind, that there are far more meat-eaters than vegans, so of course, going with that there are more cases of heart deficiency and what-not. But the health advantages don't come from eating vegan but from actually thinking about what you are going to eat, not eating most kinds of fast-food and thinking a few seconds before stuffing your face.
I have also seen a study with 25 morbidly obese americans, who basically ate nothing but fast food and soda, who, after going on a strict vegan diet, suddenly felt better, had less heart problems, etc.
Is that due to veganism?
Of course not, it's becasue they took care not to eat junk food anymore.
But of course most vegand - meat comparisons decide to go the easy route and compare vegan diets to fast food loving fat and sugar junkies.
And every single other diet on the planet could win against these odds.
And concerning Vit B12:
Your food has to be fortified.
Synthetic (or sometimes also organic) Vitamin B12 has been added to your food.
It's a form of supplement in my book...
Soy beans actually contain very little Vitamin B12, as do cereals, so it's very safe to assume that the soy milk and the cereals were infused with Vitamin B12 artifically, thus making it a Vitamin B12 supplement in my book.

 

[Spy_Guy]

Humans are at the absolute peak of the food chain. It's wonderful.

Whenever I think about human accomplishments like the factory-line food production or laboratory animals, it just fills me with such bliss. I enjoy my medicine and my food and I can just marvel at how we've advanced from simple predatory behaviour to manufacture (delicious) food at this magnitude.

I don't really care about how they live, to be honest. They're subhuman and thus available to us for use however we see fit. Just as how seals are available for use by killer-whales in whichever way they see fit (food).

No, the arguments of slaves being seen as subhuman once upon a time is invalid as they're members of the same species as us. Though... if anyone here considers themselves a sentient cow and thus the spokesperson for bovines everywhere, I can accept your point, no problems.

Now to a few things I've seen here that I took issue with:
Exhibit #1

Wow, way to represent the species man.

Vegan seen here representing his beliefs in a manner that will certainly not cause prejudice at all.

Now, I generally don't have any issues with other people's personal beliefs and I think I can let them live as they will as long as they don't encroach on the comfort of a fellow human being... I do however have issues with people representing their beliefs by means of attacking others, thus invalidating them in the eyes of their opponents.
Much in the same way as I dislike gamers shooting up schools and making the rest of us look bad.

So, have a call-out, guy. I insist.


Exhibit #2

Because eating animals "is immoral and unnatural." That's what the only vegan I've known says. Oh and "humans are actually herbivores that force themselves to eat meat from a young age."

I wanted to snip out the bits that are subjective about "morals" but it would be choppy, and I need to acknowledge hat this person is just the messenger, and I maintain my policy of not shooting those.

With regards to the bolded section, however:

 

[Vivi22]

Saturated fats found in meat (not found in primary sources of vegan protein) have been linked to various forms of cancer, heart disease and all sorts.

Those links have been frequently and consistently debunked as of late. In fact, now that the mechanisms which cause heart disease in the first place are better understood, it's not only impossible for the consumption of saturated fat to cause it, it actually prevents it by creating more optimal levels of good and bad cholesterol in the blood stream, and by not causing the inflammation which damages arteries in the first place and allows small LDL particles to take up residence in the artery walls. If you'd like to read a bit more about it then check out the book Wheat Belly by Dr. William Davis. He's a cardiologist who looked at a ton of research, lists all of his sources, and has been reversing heart disease in his patients by encouraging them to give up grains and follow a low carb, high fat diet which includes plenty of meat and fat.

And I'd love to see this source that says too much meat can't cause obesity or heart disease. Please, do share.

Again, read that book because it explains the mechanisms behind both in quite a bit of detail. You can also check out the documentary Fathead by Tom Naughton or pretty much anything by Gary Taubes as a place to start looking into low carb diets and myths like the lipid hypothesis.

But to answer your question about obesity more directly, it's pretty much impossible to become obese from over eating meat when you understand the mechanisms by which people actually store fat. First, fat is primarily stored as a result of insulin triggering the storage of blood glucose as fat. This typically will not happen unless blood glucose levels rise to high and we can't efficiently burn it off quickly enough to prevent it being a problem. This won't happen when you eat meat. Protein and fat have no impact on blood sugar levels and can't cause the spikes which trigger fat storage. Only carbs can do that, and only in sufficient quantities. This is why the biggest culprits are sugar and wheat which will spike post-meal glucose levels into the diabetic range for most people, triggering insulin release to deal with the issue. But it's not just limited to sugar and wheat. For someone trying to actively lose weight, even fructose in many fruits can cause problems if they have more than 1-2 servings a day, usually because these peoples hormonal and metabolic systems are so out of whack that they can't handle any sugar anymore, even fructose.

This is a bit of an oversimplification mind you. There are other factors at play in how someone stores fat such as their sensitivity or resistance to insulin and how readily their body will tap into fat stores for energy if needed, but the gist is that obesity, heart disease, diabetes, etc. all stem from over consumption of carbohydrates. Even worse is that carbs such as wheat and sugar will stimulate appetite and make people crave more when their blood sugar inevitably crashes creating one hell of a vicious cycle. Not only will that not happen on a low carb diet which includes plenty of meat and fat, but they provide greater satiety after consumption and more consistent energy levels throughout the day. Many find they can go hours longer between meals without eating and be perfectly fine because their blood sugar is under control and their body is utilizing the fat for energy instead of carbs.

You're arguing against points I never made. I never claimed wheat to be the messiah of foods, nor sugar,

No, but you did try to equate a simple concept such as conservation of energy to a complex system such as the human body which runs on more than simple calories, and argue that cutting out animals is more efficient because it loses the middle man. Your post also implied to me that you were arguing people would be better off if that 1/3rd of the worlds grain went straight to people instead of animals. But since that wasn't your intention I apologize for the misunderstanding. But the reality isn't as simple as you made it out to be, and ignores that animals are a very efficient source of protein, fat and nutrients we outright can't get from plants with any efficiency, and is certainly the more optimal choice since a diet including meat, particularly in larger quantities than the USDA recommends is much closer to the diet most people, particularly of European descent, have been eating for millions of years.

I said "a lot of people in this world could do with a lot less meat, and a lot more veg". I never claimed RDA gave you exactly what you wanted, only pointed that if in one meal I obtain more than 160% of the apparent minimum (which could be higher if I'd had pepperoni instead of cheese), then there is probably something wrong there. That was all.

I agree something is wrong there, but what's wrong is that the USDA pulled nutritional recommendations out of their ass and are often swayed by the whims of whichever lobbyists have the deepest pockets. The best research out there does not support their recommendations.

I mean look at it this way: of the three major macronutrients, protein, carbohydrates and fat, there is one that humans can get 0 of in their diet and be perfectly fine. I'll give you a hint: you're not going to find much of this macronutrient in a steak. So if we can thrive on diets with 0 carbs (the only down side being you're not going to run any marathons on 0 carbs), then why do the USDA recommendations call for eating the bare minimum of those you need to live, while recommending around 300g of carbs a day, most of that in the form of wheat based products? The answer, quite simply, is the people making the nutritional recommendations also happen to be paying pretty big subsidies to grain farmers. Wouldn't want all of that government money to be wasted on crops no ones eating I suppose.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

snip

That's actually my point. That was the only vegan I knows defense for being a vegan. It was in quotes for that very reason.

 

[Jammy2003]

Please bear in mind, that there are far more meat-eaters than vegans, so of course, going with that there are more cases of heart deficiency and what-not. But the health advantages don't come from eating vegan but from actually thinking about what you are going to eat, not eating most kinds of fast-food and thinking a few seconds before stuffing your face.
I have also seen a study with 25 morbidly obese americans, who basically ate nothing but fast food and soda, who, after going on a strict vegan diet, suddenly felt better, had less heart problems, etc.
Is that due to veganism?
Of course not, it's becasue they took care not to eat junk food anymore.
But of course most vegand - meat comparisons decide to go the easy route and compare vegan diets to fast food loving fat and sugar junkies.
And every single other diet on the planet could win against these odds.
And concerning Vit B12:
Your food has to be fortified.
Synthetic (or sometimes also organic) Vitamin B12 has been added to your food.
It's a form of supplement in my book...
Soy beans actually contain very little Vitamin B12, as do cereals, so it's very safe to assume that the soy milk and the cereals were infused with Vitamin B12 artifically, thus making it a Vitamin B12 supplement in my book.

Well maybe you are looking at the wrong studies, not my problem.
Others exist, I'm sorry for you wasting your time looking at such obviously biased ones, but I assure you biased studies exist both ways.

In regards to B12:
1) It's not my food, get your facts right.
2) Well we have different ideas of supplements then, to me a supplement is something you actively take ie. a tablet.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

Sorry to pick on such an old post but I didn't have time to post the other day, and sorry if these points have already been made but I couldn't find them so...

Then you either weren't looking very hard or you failed to comprehend it, I'm not entirely sure which is more likely.

Man, I I meant I actually couldn't find posts with these points.

The only reason cows have a negative impact is because there are so many that have been bread for the purposes of farming,

Guess what? The only reason a Cow doesn't have a inherently negative impact is because we and other species eat them. A Cow not being eaten will only breed, eat and shit.

Because we eat them more are farmed, and there for have more of a negative impact.

and the idea that herbivores destroy entire eco systems doesn't really hold up, if that where true plant life would be extinct, herbivores would die out, and carnivores would die out, humans weren't always around to 'control' them.

It holds up, you just couldn't figure out why all on your own. Let me help you out:

Cow has no predators -> Cow lives it's life until it's natural death -> Eats a fuck ton and let's out lot's and lot's of methane -> breeds, now we have even more cows that do nothing but eat, shit and breed -> rinse and repeat until the number of cows cannot be sustained by the eco system, the eco system collapses and the cows fucking starve.

By the way, your reasoning is terrible. Because Humans are the only Predators that do and ever have existed, huh? Predators eating Herbivores is the only way the system even works. So you either didn't understand the context or you are ...unenlightened. Yeah, that doesn't sound too harsh.

Wow way to be real condescending man, very classy. You do realise taking what you just said to its logical conclusion would mean all live would have died out years ago. Animals don't continually bread, and I've even head they die some times so that's got to lower their numbers, right. "Because Humans are the only Predators that do and ever have existed, huh? " My point was that what you are saying is the only reason cows haven't killed of the planet yet is because humans keep their numbers down (complete opposite of what they do but whatever) but humans weren't always farming them, so logicically we wouldn't be here talking about it because cows would have fucked up the planet.

Humans actually are (initially) an inherent drain on the world, think about it, how many of us are actually usefull, how many of use are doctors or scientists, it's an unspoken truth that the majority of humans aren't really all that special.

Because Doctors and Scientists are the only useful people, huh? Get some perspective.

Now you are putting word in my mouth while displaying my actual words two lines above, I didn't say that they where the only useful examples did I, I just used them as examples because they where the first to jump to mind.

snipped for the sake of all our intelligence

Wow, thanks man how considerate of you!

Posting Pictures of Barn Yard Animals in a comparison to Terrorists and Dictators...why don't you just go full circle and post a picture of yourself next to the barn animals?

I really don't get this needs to be asked. Because I'm not a terrorist or dictator, you where saying that humans are inherently superior, evidently they are not. A human has far more potential to be destructive than a cow, and I don't think I would call a cow a terrorist unless I was a blade of grass.

On a side not can we sop with the whole veganism isn't healthy thing, you would be hard pressed to find an unhealthy vegan, and well..

Oh, it isn't unhealthy, not necessarily, it's terribly inefficient, that's why it isn't as good as simply having a balanced diet.

Sun>Plant>Animal>human
Sun>Plant>Human
Seems more efficient to me.


Seriously though, I don't think I did any thing to warrant that kind of condescending reaction.

 

[Jammy2003]

-snip-

So basically, you hate carbs. Carbs are bad. That's what your arguement seems to boil down to? I'm simplifying because I've had enough long debates in the first 11 pages of this thread, and don't want to get into any more. I wrote 1 paragraph, you gave me 7. You want to debate with me this late in the thread? Go back and read what I wrote before, I have no interest in writing it all out again

Ok, maybe I will read the book sometime, I'm not gonna do it right this second to debate with you though. Animals are a very efficient source of lots of things, yes. However we can't sustain the level of production we currently have, and you are suggesting we have more?

With your talk of the USDA I'm gonna assume you're American, 70-80% of your grain production goes to livestock. That's a lot of wheat, making a lot of meat. And the conditions or practices aren't too good either, meaning there is also a lot of crap quality meat. Maybe a diet of good quality meat, and low carbs is good for you, but that isn't what the average person is going to get.

You are arguing against points nobody has raised, and I'm not interested in playing devil's advocate for you. I don't know as much about carbs as you seem to, so I'm not gonna defend them. I do know it's possible to live healthily on a vegan diet though, and you are pretty much completely off topic to the thread at this stage.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

Wow, way to represent the species man.

Vegan seen here representing his beliefs in a manner that will certainly not cause prejudice at all.

Now, I generally don't have any issues with other people's personal beliefs and I think I can let them live as they will as long as they don't encroach on the comfort of a fellow human being... I do however have issues with people representing their beliefs by means of attacking others, thus invalidating them in the eyes of their opponents.
Much in the same way as I dislike gamers shooting up schools and making the rest of us look bad.

So, have a call-out, guy. I insist.

I wasn't attacking him with my belief, I don't do that. If you read the guys original post he says "vegans are idiots" several times, when I replied in a completely respectable manner he said "I'll call anyone I like an idiot". While I admit my "Wow, way to represent the species man." line doesn't add anything to the conversation is and isn't really worthwhile, I didn't say that because he doesn't share my beliefs, I said that because he was being a dick.

And I'd appreciate if you quote me don't do it out of context so that I have to explain what really happened.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

snip

Well you seem like an very unpleasant person.
I was completely civil and your reaction was to be condescending, insulting and aggressive.