Vegetarians - why?

[Leon Last Lord Shyle]

Two part reason for me. First is the carbon footprint. A diet including (red) meat equals something like two cars in terms of carbon emissions from the livestock.

Ok on this I am just going to say.

Pets

The average dog causes a higher carbon footprint than a car but you do not hear people screaming.

"omg don't keep pets they kill the environment"

 

[ultimateownage]

Secondly is the speciesism argument. Essentially, how can you justify killing a cow for food when you wouldn't eat a human who has died of natural causes? Its technically a form of discrimination which means you should not be able to take any moral high-ground against other forms of discrimination such as racism and sexism.

That is possibly the stupidest argument for vegetarianism I have seen in such a long time. If that's why someone is a vegetarian, then they need to get their priorities straight.
If they're going to throw discrimination at something like that, then the discrimination argument pretty much counters itself.

 

[Treblaine]

Yes but if you are lactose tolerant... why would you not drink dairy when it is so nutritious, tasty and pervasive.

It's like saying "some people are allergic to peanuts, therefore I shouldn't eat peanuts"
Frankly I think this lactose intolerance thing is being blown out of proportion, like back in the 90's with people's paranoia over cholesterol in eggs. Turns out its not problem at all and eggs are one of the healthiest and nutritious way of obtaining protein and fat in your diet.

Do you know what lactose intollerant actually means?

I get the shits terrible when I drink milk or eat ice cream. How does this suggest my body is telling me I should have more?

Did you actually read my post or just skim over it?

I argued that you should only avoid lactose/milk if YOU are actually intolerant of it, not just because many others are.

I NEVER suggested you should continue consuming milk if you are lactose intolerant. Just like if you have a peanut allergy you shouldn't eat peanuts.

 

[oooooooooooooooooooooooooo]

That is possibly the stupidest argument for vegetarianism I have seen in such a long time. If that's why someone is a vegetarian, then they need to get their priorities straight.
If they're going to throw discrimination at something like that, then the discrimination argument pretty much counters itself.

Really, care to actually present an argument to the contrary?

Ok on this I am just going to say.

Pets

The average dog causes a higher carbon footprint than a car but you do not hear people screaming.

"omg don't keep pets they kill the environment"

Well yes, but that just an appeal to popular opinion, it doesn't make any more right to own a pet if you are aware of the carbon emission's.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

False. All meat contains cholesterol. Fatty meat might contain more but all animal products - dairy, that lean chicken breast you had for dinner - contains cholesterol.

In the words of Uffe Ravnskov (http://www.ravnskov.nu/). Cholesterol is not a deadly poison, but a substance vital to the cells of all mammals. There are no such things as good or bad cholesterol, but mental stress, physical activity and change of body weight may influence the level of blood cholesterol. A high cholesterol is not dangerous by itself, but may reflect an unhealthy condition, or it may be totally innocent.

A high blood cholesterol is said to promote atherosclerosis and thus also coronary heart disease. But many studies (http://www.ravnskov.nu/myth2.htm) have shown that people whose blood cholesterol is low become just as atherosclerotic as people whose cholesterol is high.

I can point to this, though:
http://www.thechinastudy.com/

http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/ Denise Minger does a good job of demonstrating how the data was tortured to come up with the china study. Chris Masterjohn and many others have done less exhaustive but still fair analysis of it and come much to the same conclusions as Denise.

And you can draw your own conclusions about how healthy it is to eat meat; even in small amounts.

There are a lot of people who eat little but meat who are in mint condition. Im one of them.

Dying of protein deficiency is extremely, extremely rare in almost any developed country. There's more protein, gram for gram, in broccoli than there is in steak.

http://www.dachia.com/Broccoli_vs_Steak.html

100grams of sirloin comes in at 147 calories with 21g of protein. 100 grams of broccoli lands you at 28 calories and 3 grams of protein. Obviously the denser food is sirloin even if the ration between calories and protein is less than that of broccoli it comes with a more complete set of amino acids. See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein

Humans have no issues digesting plant matter. At all. Whatsoever.

Humans are unable to digest cellulose because the appropriate enzymes to breakdown the beta acetal linkages are lacking. The core argument you will find from dietary "science" as to why fiber is so all important is that it gives you better shits. Dont believe me? I encourage you to look this one up for yourself.

 

[Treblaine]

Its technically a form of discrimination which means you should not be able to take any moral high-ground against other forms of discrimination such as racism and sexism.

Again the use of the word "discrimination" as a flat pejorative. It's illiterate.

There is NOTHING wrong with discrimination in and of itself. Discrimination is telling the difference between things and making distinctions and judgements based on those.

Like discriminating between a bowl of shit and a bowl of chocolate.

Racial discrimination is wrong not because discrimination is wrong but because RACISM is wrong! Because racial differences are essentially trivial, far more important are the flexible social constructs attached to races i.e. racism.

Discrimination is telling the difference between a dumb animal that has been bred for meat and a human being who was born to live and be a loved member of society. Also you don't eat humans regardless of that because of prion diseases, insects practice cannibalism because they are immune to such conditions. Most animals and especially mammals are very vulnerable.

 

[Crazycat690]

Well I'm not, but my mom is, for the same reason she's against fur, the animals need their fur/meat to survive, we don't =) I'm also against fur but I'm not a vegetarian, in fact I'm sitting around eating a ham sandwich atm.

 

[RobCoxxy]

Silly Vegetraians, salad is what my food eats.

Captcha: thadelin 199

 

[k-ossuburb]

Why don't you eat insects?

Different tastes, different backgrounds, different diets. 'Tis that simple.

You've never had sweet and sour grasshoppers? They're delicious! I can't really describe it, they're kind of like shrimp, but crunchy and with a slightly "grassy" aftertaste to them. If you can get your hands on them somewhere, I recommend them, I suppose you could track down some wild ones, but those little buggers are fast. (See what I did there?)

OT: I'm not one myself, but I nearly was after working in a slaughterhouse. It's not that I found it cruel or anything, nor was I afraid of blood or seeing the deaths of 100's of farm animals a day; it's just that if you handle the contents (and the smell, oh dear lord the smell) of a cow/pig/lamb stomach with your bare hands for 11 hours a day it's going to put you off your bacon sammiches somewhat.

 

[thylasos]

I'm Buddhist. There're also politco-environmental reasons, and the most basic reason nowadays, that after 8 years of vegetarianism, meat simply doesn't appeal to me.

 

[Dys]

And apparently there are less stupid reasons as well. Though I am inclined to ask, do you always refuse to eat animal product or is it more of a "my diet is generally vegan" scenario?

My diet is exclusively vegan. I see food as fuel rather than as some hedonistic pleasure - I'm a rather thin man as you might imagine - and after keeping a vegan diet for so long it just becomes a hassle to deal with meat or dairy. I don't really digest animal products that well anymore - meat isn't appealing to me and dairy is mucus-producing and just... kind of gross to contemplate eating.

That having been said I *do* take 2 nutritional supplements that are derived from or comprised of animal products: Omega-3 fish oil capsules from Nordic Naturals (a brand I think is high quality and Consumer Labs, which I subscribe to, supports) and Vitamin-D3 which is the more bio-available form of Vitamin D. I do this because I get very little sunlight being a typical cave-dwelling gamer type... - though I exercise on a regular basis it happens indoors or when it's overcast or at night. I don't like the Sunlight much at all. The fish oil is more for cardiovascular benefits and as a nod to the fact that some vegans have deficiencies in fatty acids found in fish; then again, so do many omnivores who don't eat fatty fish on a regular basis.

So I suppose you can say that while my diet is entirely vegan I do consume minuscule amounts of animal products in the form of a fish oil and a vitamin supplement. Otherwise, I find eating flesh and dairy distasteful. I don't believe that "eating" animals is cruel, but I do believe the factory farm conditions of animals kept in at least the US are needlessly cruel and somewhat disgusting. That having been said, I see nothing wrong with, say, a farmer killing and eating his own organic meat and eating his own organic eggs.

I hope that clarifies my position a bit.

It does clarify and actually lives up to the sensible nature that I assumed due to your earlier post. It's rather comforting to know that some people actually adopt vegan diets without being completely naive to how the meat industry (and health supplement and even fruit/veg industries) function...I'm rather sick of the stereotypical responses to these types of thread, yet seem to have a compulsion on clicking them and exposing myself to the stupid.

 

[Flabbagazta]

I have been a vegetarian for around seven years (since i was about 19), I came to this decision out of an ethical standpoint (reading Peter Singer was a big influence). I don't mind if people eat meat or even eat it around me, although the smell can be a little sickening sometimes (especially steak being cooked), I do however feel that people should decide to eat meat and not just do it because they always have and I wouldn't stick to my diet if my health depended on it. Currently where I live (Australia) I can live healthily without eating meat I do not NEED it and therefore won't, but if was to live somewhere where meat was my only viable option for sustenance then I would eat it without hesitation.

Never do I/will I force my views on anyone but I do encourage people to make a choice regarding the consumption of meat

 

[Megacherv]

Vegetarian debates/discussions always leave me thinking of this:-


Some of us just don't like living without meat. Others I guess seem to cope with it

...all have variations on a vegan diet that I find very healthful.

In keeping with the Futurama theme of my post:-

 

[AwesomeSuperMelon]

Some people have acutal dietry problems and cannot consume meat without getting sick. I for one would cry if I where to have to give up meat.

 

[ultimateownage]

That is possibly the stupidest argument for vegetarianism I have seen in such a long time. If that's why someone is a vegetarian, then they need to get their priorities straight.
If they're going to throw discrimination at something like that, then the discrimination argument pretty much counters itself.

Really, care to actually present an argument to the contrary?

Okay, why don't we eat some species of animals? Are we being discriminatory to them? What about bugs? What about plants? Are we being discriminatory to plants by eating them and not wanting to eat animals, or being discriminatory for favouring meat to plants? If the discrimination argument is being used, then you can word anything you want to make it sound discriminatory.
It is illegal to eat humans, and I'm pretty sure doing so has ill effects. The large majority of species on this planet eat other species but not themselves.

Any argument that involves discrimination that isn't obvious or abhorrent is a bad argument.

 

[The Gnome King]

A high blood cholesterol is said to promote atherosclerosis and thus also coronary heart disease. But many studies (http://www.ravnskov.nu/myth2.htm) have shown that people whose blood cholesterol is low become just as atherosclerotic as people whose cholesterol is high.

You made a profile for this? Really?

Anyway... I'll go with the data from here:

http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/features/high-cholesterol-risks-top-2-dangers

And here:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-blood-cholesterol/DS00178

And a thousand other places over your study by this guy:

http://www.ravnskov.nu/about_the_author.htm#about

Atkins and he will be debunked. Atkins is dead already... isn't he?

There are a lot of people who eat little but meat who are in mint condition. Im one of them.

Good?

Obviously the denser food is sirloin even if the ration between calories and protein is less than that of broccoli it comes with a more complete set of amino acids. See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein

And we need all this protein why?

http://natural-health-and-fitness.com/dangers-of-too-much-protein/

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=50900

Is it for the kidney damage, perchance?

Humans are unable to digest cellulose because the appropriate enzymes to breakdown the beta acetal linkages are lacking. The core argument you will find from dietary "science" as to why fiber is so all important is that it gives you better shits. Dont believe me? I encourage you to look this one up for yourself.

Cellulose provides bulk to stool; cellulose and fiber make up a portion of plant foods, yes. Adding bulk to stool in the form of plant material is a good thing, it means you don't need to go out and use laxatives or drink Metamucil in your water in order to use the toilet. All advantages there, methinks.

As for the portion of the plant that is non-fiber, it's digested and used like anything else. Again, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here that goes against what I originally said - humans have no problems digesting plants or living on plants.

One last word on cholesterol:

Framingham data show that only patients with cholesterol levels of less than 150 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dl) achieve the lowest coronary artery disease risk.

http://www.pcrm.org/health/prevmed/chol_heartdisease.html

And remind me... what is it that's the #1 cause of death in the US again? I can't seem to recall... I think it has something to do with the heart...

And again - really - a profile for this?

 

[oooooooooooooooooooooooooo]

Again the use of the word "discrimination" as a flat pejorative. It's illiterate.

Okay, fair enough, but I suspect you got my meaning anyway.

There is NOTHING wrong with discrimination in and of itself. Discrimination is telling the difference between things and making distinctions and judgements based on those.

Like discriminating between a bowl of shit and a bowl of chocolate.

Racial discrimination is wrong not because discrimination is wrong but because RACISM is wrong! Because racial differences are essentially trivial, far more important are the flexible social constructs attached to races i.e. racism.

I did qualify this discrimination as speciesism.

Discrimination is telling the difference between a dumb animal that has been bred for meat and a human being who was born to live and be a loved member of society. Also you don't eat humans regardless of that because of prion diseases, insects practice cannibalism because they are immune to such conditions. Most animals and especially mammals are very vulnerable.

Being bred to die doesn't make it anymore okay kill something, it wouldn't be ethical to kill a human that is bred to die (think some strange hereditary gladiator situation or something). You have not actually provided a reason as to why a cow's life is less valuable than a human's.

 

[The Gnome King]

It does clarify and actually lives up to the sensible nature that I assumed due to your earlier post. It's rather comforting to know that some people actually adopt vegan diets without being completely naive to how the meat industry (and health supplement and even fruit/veg industries) function...I'm rather sick of the stereotypical responses to these types of thread, yet seem to have a compulsion on clicking them and exposing myself to the stupid.

No problem. Like I said, I see food as fuel. If I thought eating eggs and steak and bacon was the healthy way to go - as I once did on a modified Atkins style diet - I'd be doing it.

I get blood work done often enough that I can readily see the effects of diet on my body; and I'm fairly sensitive to how I feel with what I eat. I eat what makes me feel good, therefore I eat vegan food with a few sensible animal-based supplements thrown in.

Fish oil capsules are great; all the healthy benefits of fish without actually having to eat fish. ;D (And thus, no mercury, minimal saturated fat, etc!)

 

[StBishop]

Have you never eaten green food (or fruits)? Just about anything in the produce aisle other than artichokes can be bitten into right there. It might not taste great, but nor would raw meat (which also must be cooked by the way to avoid disease and taste good.)

It doesn't matter what was history though, it matters what is now. Our bodies CAN survive on vegetables alone (assuming you ensure you get your protein), and can't survive well on only meat (you miss out on too many vitamins and minerals).

Also I edited my first comment to reply to your variety of meat comment if you care to read it.

False.

Meat is perfectly delicious raw, however only if of high quality.

I won't bother arguing any other points raised in the thread because I simply don't care enough. I'm interested to see a novel reasoning but I can't be bothered arguing about this topic, it's an exercise in futility.